How Wing Chun is supposed to look...in my book

[Hanzou]

Doesn't it depend though on whether you have trained enough to see CMA influences? I don't see it because I haven't trained it and therefore don't know what I'm looking for, it doesn't mean though that it's not there.

I've never trained in Muay Thai, but I recognize it when I see it, because it has a very distinct style. As does many CMAs. That guy in the Malaysian MMA video was clearly doing Wing Chun for example. Unfortunately he got demolished for his effort.

Two MMA guys fighting just like Boxers doesn't strike me as something distinctly CMA. Its two guys who trained extensively in MMA who probably took Kung Fu as kids.

 

[J W]

Just like JW saying that Aaron Baum's striking resembles WC. Actually it looks like two amateur boxers swinging at each other. Maybe you guys are looking at Western Boxing techniques and are confusing them for WC techniques? I highly doubt that wild hook punches work with WC's underlying principles.

That's not what I said, and I agree with you. None of the strikes in that video resemble WC striking. However, I did see some WC principles being put to use. So between the two vids you posted, the first one contains more WC than the second.

Anyway, fine, maybe Wing Chun is no good in MMA competition. I really don't know. I honestly don't know enough about MMA to argue for or against using WC in that type of competition.

The original post had nothing to do with MMA, though, so getting back to that video of the Hawkins Cheung demo. I kinda like the combo starting at 0:16. Looks good, but it does rely on the uke throwing wildly telegraphed haymakers. Typically I would say that a demo like that is more about putting on a good show rather than showcasing effective techniques; you don't often see the uke using "skilled" attacks in those types of demos.

 

[Tez3]

I've never trained in Muay Thai, but I recognize it when I see it, because it has a very distinct style. As does many CMAs. That guy in the Malaysian MMA video was clearly doing Wing Chun for example. Unfortunately he got demolished for his effort.

Two MMA guys fighting just like Boxers doesn't strike me as something distinctly CMA. Its two guys who trained extensively in MMA who probably took Kung Fu as kids.

I'm quite happy to acknowledge that I don't know things.
Of course, the 'guy' in the Malaysian video could have just been a very poor representative of his style. That's the danger of using videos to prove anything. I've seen some very bad MT ( I have trained MT) which if you were to watch would make you think MT was a terrible art to train in for MMA. All that video proves to be is that the guy isn't a good fighter, nothing more. I actually wouldn't make the judgement about CMA and MMA, it is far too sweeping to say that CMA doesn't work or it does based on that.

 

[Hanzou]

That's not what I said, and I agree with you. None of the strikes in that video resemble WC striking. However, I did see some WC principles being put to use. So between the two vids you posted, the first one contains more WC than the second.

Anyway, fine, maybe Wing Chun is no good in MMA competition. I really don't know. I honestly don't know enough about MMA to argue for or against using WC in that type of competition.

The principles and concepts are interesting, and possibly applicable, but yeah, I don't think we're going to see a guy performing Wing Chun as shown in demonstrations and instructional tapes in MMA anytime soon.

I'm quite happy to acknowledge that I don't know things.

As am I. However, if you're going to argue that someone can't tell a CMA style from a western boxing/kickboxing style, I simply have to disagree.

Of course, the 'guy' in the Malaysian video could have just been a very poor representative of his style. That's the danger of using videos to prove anything. I've seen some very bad MT ( I have trained MT) which if you were to watch would make you think MT was a terrible art to train in for MMA. All that video proves to be is that the guy isn't a good fighter, nothing more. I actually wouldn't make the judgement about CMA and MMA, it is far too sweeping to say that CMA doesn't work or it does based on that.

No one is saying that Wing Chun doesn't work, or are useless. The argument here is that they are absent from MMAs and it would be very impressive to see someone break out in some Wing Chun in a MMA competition.

 

[Tez3]

The principles and concepts are interesting, and possibly applicable, but yeah, I don't think we're going to see a guy performing Wing Chun as shown in demonstrations and instructional tapes in MMA anytime soon.



As am I. However, if you're going to argue that someone can't tell a CMA style from a western boxing/kickboxing style, I simply have to disagree.



No one is saying that Wing Chun doesn't work, or are useless. The argument here is that they are absent from MMAs and it would be very impressive to see someone break out in some Wing Chun in a MMA competition.

I'm wondering why everything has to be an argument and why everything has to be about MMA.......

 

[Jake104]

I don't doubt that many fighters have looked into Wing Chun from time to time to see if there's anything to glean from its practice. That really doesn't change my argument above. Heck, fighters also practice Yoga. Are we going to now start counting Yoga as one of their fighting styles they practice?

You can utilize Chi Sau practice all you want, but if you just end up fighting like a boxer in the end, what was the point? You mention Alan Orr's team. I checked out one of his students Aaron Baum in a MMA fight, and this is what I saw;

Where's the Wing Chun in that? Where's the Chi Sau and the other stuff you mention? I see boxing, kick boxing, Bjj, and wrestling. If someone didn't tell me that guy practiced Wing Chun, I wouldn't have known it.

In comparison, this guy clearly utilizes Wing Chun in this bout;

Fast forward to 1:30, its a quick fight.

Its great to have theories and principles, but if you're tossing them all aside to fight like a standard MMA fighter, what was the point in learning them, or (worse) advertising your background in them in the first place?

Your are so 100% right. Whenever a fighter freezes with his hands out Ina Wing Chun Gaurd and gets KO'd that's pure WC. Man nothing gets by you! But when somebody wins. It is just a dabble in Wing Chun like yoga? The Malaysian fight looked more like a yoga demo to me than Wing Chun. Thanks for setting us straight!

 

[Hanzou]

I'm wondering why everything has to be an argument and why everything has to be about MMA.......

Well you waded into an argument about MMA. What did you expect?

 

[Jake104]

Your are so 100% right. Whenever a fighter freezes with his hands out Ina Wing Chun Gaurd and gets KO'd that's pure WC. Man nothing gets by you! But when somebody wins. It is just a dabble in Wing Chun like yoga? The Malaysian fight looked more like a yoga demo to me than Wing Chun. Thanks for setting us straight!

If you look here at about 3:00 mark
Hawkins talks about holding pressure and how it looks just like how MMA does it. Bare in mind it may not look exactly like MMA cause HC is not wearing his tapout shirt that day or his hat sideways. Haha

 

[Mephisto]

I'm wondering why everything has to be an argument and why everything has to be about MMA.......

I think mma is an important frame of reference for martial arts that make a strong claim to an applicapable fighting system. MMA is the closest thing we have to reality for trained fighters to assess and test skill. Yes, mma has many rules and is a sport but I wager that regular class training in any art has rules and customs of what is acceptable and what's not. If you claim to be teaching people an effective fighting art MMA is the measure. If it can be used in mma than is agree that it's an effective style, if it can't be used than I'd question a styles claim of being an effective or superior fighting system. Just because we don't see styles in mma doesn't mean they don't work, it just means it hasn't happened yet. Some recent impressive displays of the wheel kick give me hope that some day tkd might be a staple art off mma. All mma is, is fighting in all ranges in a one on one format. Any system that has punches, kicks, and grappling should be able to prove its success in this fighting format.

 

[Transk53]

Well you waded into an argument about MMA. What did you expect?

The point is Hanzou that there is no need for an argument in this thread, or any thread.

 

[Jake104]

The point is Hanzou that there is no need for an argument in this thread, or any thread.

Yes, cause the title is "How Wing Chun is suppose to look... In my book."
Read another book if you don't agree! Haha!

 

[Tez3]

Well you waded into an argument about MMA. What did you expect?

The thread wasn't about MMA... until you brought up fighting in the cage.

 

[Tez3]

I think mma is an important frame of reference for martial arts that make a strong claim to an applicapable fighting system. MMA is the closest thing we have to reality for trained fighters to assess and test skill. Yes, mma has many rules and is a sport but I wager that regular class training in any art has rules and customs of what is acceptable and what's not. If you claim to be teaching people an effective fighting art MMA is the measure. If it can be used in mma than is agree that it's an effective style, if it can't be used than I'd question a styles claim of being an effective or superior fighting system. Just because we don't see styles in mma doesn't mean they don't work, it just means it hasn't happened yet. Some recent impressive displays of the wheel kick give me hope that some day tkd might be a staple art off mma. All mma is, is fighting in all ranges in a one on one format. Any system that has punches, kicks, and grappling should be able to prove its success in this fighting format.

Actually MMA is a competition, it tests competitors. It tests competitive skills, tactics and fitness. It is competitive fighting which doesn't necessarily make it the benchmark by which we judge all martial arts.
If you haven't realised how many TKDists there are in MMA already then I'm not sure you actually understand MMA as much as you think you do.
Can I ask how long you have trained MMA and have you coached fighters? How many fights have you seen, have you judged MMA fights, reffed them? cornered fighters? I ask to get an idea of how involved you are in MMA, that's all.

 

[geezer]

The principles and concepts are interesting, and possibly applicable, but yeah, I don't think we're going to see a guy performing Wing Chun as shown in demonstrations and instructional tapes in MMA anytime soon.

...No one is saying that Wing Chun doesn't work, or are useless. The argument here is that they are absent from MMAs and it would be very impressive to see someone break out in some Wing Chun in a MMA competition.

I have to agree. I'd really like to see someone make some WC that looks like WC work in an MMA setting, but like Hanzou, I'm not holding my breath.

Alan Orr's guys have had some success, but the outward appearance of their CSL Wing Chun looks pretty much like standard MMA fare. On the other hand, Coach Orr insists that if you look a little closer, you can see where the WC comes into play:

Is it WC or not? That's up to you. I don't know what's in your book. Jake's told us about his. Regardless, Orr's guys make their stuff work and they insist that chi-sau and other WC training methods are of direct value. Maybe you can't see it in their matches, but I'd point out that there are a lot of good Western Boxing training methods from speed bag work to jumping rope that are not visibly present in a fight, but that good coaches still use. Maybe we should look at chi-sau like that.

 

[Jake104]

I have to agree. I'd really like to see someone make some WC that looks like WC work in an MMA setting, but like Hanzou, I'm not holding my breath.

Alan Orr's guys have had some success, but the outward appearance of their CSL Wing Chun looks pretty much like standard MMA fare. On the other hand, Coach Orr insists that if you look a little closer, you can see where the WC comes into play:

Is it WC or not? That's up to you. I don't know what's in your book. Jake's told us about his. Regardless, Orr's guys make their stuff work and they insist that chi-sau and other WC training methods are of direct value. Maybe you can't see it in their matches, but I'd point out that there are a lot of good Western Boxing training methods from speed bag work to jumping rope that are not visibly present in a fight, but that good coaches still use. Maybe we should look at chi-sau like that.

Actually I don't have a book. I'm more of a look at the pictures kind of reader.

 

[Tez3]

Actually I don't have a book. I'm more of a look at the pictures kind of reader.

that's for sure.

so what is MMA then if not a competition?

 

[Jake104]

You know just for agreement sake. You could say Alan's adapted his art for MMA. I think he even admits that the MMA stuff is his Chinese Boxing. You could say every art in mixed martial arts has been adapted for the ring. Even BJJ. Cause after the element ofsurprise that the Gracie's had going for them in the first UFC's was lost. They had to adapt and learn better stand up?

 

[Jake104]

that's for sure.

so what is MMA then if not a competition?

Thanks for noticing!

 

[Tez3]

Thanks for noticing!

You're welcome so what is MMA then if not a competition?

 

[Jake104]

that's for sure.

so what is MMA then if not a competition?

It's entertainment.