The only way I can picture this is half-mooning in a horse stance, which depending on the horse stance your style has may be difficult. I think a video and/or picture would be necessary for this, to solve the confusion.
How to Perform a Horse Stance Elbow?
- Thread starter dvcochran
- Start date
skribs
Grandmaster
He said moving forward or perpendicular. You also don't move while in a static stance. If you're going to criticize someone over sentence structure, I'm going to have to use the H-word.
jobo
Grandmaster
It's perfectly clear he is talking about moving whilst in a horse stance 0 now even you seem to think that is ill advised
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OP
OP
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I was taught it palm up and have been doing it that way for about 37 years. Much more awkward for me to do a palm down elbow in a horse stance. It is all about how you were taught and the application.
skribs
Grandmaster
Let's use this link (don't want to paste a large image here):
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...oryo_3D.png/revision/latest?cb=20161126004125
Are you talking about steps 20b and 25b? Right after the low palm strike.
OP
OP
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Yes, that is correct. But the Kukkiwon stances are quite different from the way I was taught. Guess I need to brush up. Conformity sucks.
skribs
Grandmaster
Yes, that is correct. But the Kukkiwon stances are quite different from the way I was taught. Guess I need to brush up. Conformity sucks.
I'd like to see a video of you performing that technique. Maybe that would tell me why it's so different.
My assumption here is you may be using the palm-down version at the same height as the palm-up version, and that's why it's going awry. Do the elbow strike at your shoulder level, and palm-down is definitely the way to go.
Similar for those who are finding it awkward to do palm-up. (Cough @WaterGal Cough). If you do the palm-up variant at shoulder-height, it is extremely awkward. If you do it at belly height or lower, it's more comfortable, and playing around with it, it has greater reach than the palm-down version.
I do feel the official KKW version is stronger (but that could be because I've practiced it more), and I feel it makes more use of the augmenting hand.
OP
OP
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I was with you until that last sentence. Again, it is much to do with how a person was taught and practiced.
I have broken 6 non-spaced 12" boards palm up stepping in horse stance fashion. I have broken 8 spaced blocks from a static deep front/side? stance palm down. I feel certain the board break, un-spaced is much harder.
I do not see enough base in stances of the video versions I watched to feel like they were super strong. I get the sense that is not what the form is trying to portray. Instead it is about being more mobile and agile I think.
This is much the ramblings of an old man who hates to see wholesale changes in something I have done for a very long time. Have to learn to roll with it.
skribs
Grandmaster
Were the blocks the same height in both breaks?
I'm having a hard time seeing an elbow strike have the range to go through 8 spaced blocks.
It doesn't need to. It merely has to transfer power. In the picture I use for an avatar, I'm breaking 10 16x8x2 pavers. My hand certainly didn't come out the bottom.
To answer, you really have to put this in the context of the form you're talking about. Because outside of forms, the strike can be done palm up, palm down, palm vertical. Open handed, closed fist.
Forms are stylized. In forms, you're expected to perform each movement in a very specific way. Outside of forms, you're not.
skribs
Grandmaster
Does it work the same for spaced boards?
Good question.
Yes.
Spacers don't really affect the difficulty of a break. What they do is change the order of the break.
When you hit something, it bends. To break it, you have to cause it to flex beyond the amount it can bend.
If you break a stack of unspaced boards or bricks or whatever, they break from the bottom. If you break the same thing with spacers, they break from the top.
So if you smack a stack without spacers and do not transfer enough power to break the whole stack, a lot of that power is going to rebound into you. Which can break your hand.
If you smack the same stack with spacers and don't break them all, the power is expended on the partial break. So you don't hurt yourself.
Spacers make power breaks safer. Not easier.
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Orion Nebula
Green Belt
In Shotokan, part of the kihon for 6th kyu is a forearm block (shoto ude uke) in front stance followed by a transition to horse stance and an elbow strike. Later on, a back fist and reverse punch is added to the sequence.
For this particular move, we use a closed fist with the palm facing down. The target is the solar plexus and we strike with the the tip of the elbow. To me, it seems like it would be awkward with the palm up. For a a little while, I incorrectly had my palm facing my body as that felt most natural to me. However, now that I've been doing it palm-down, everything else feels unnatural!
For this particular move, we use a closed fist with the palm facing down. The target is the solar plexus and we strike with the the tip of the elbow. To me, it seems like it would be awkward with the palm up. For a a little while, I incorrectly had my palm facing my body as that felt most natural to me. However, now that I've been doing it palm-down, everything else feels unnatural!
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
I do not think this is correct. Totally TKD had an article which determined a formula for increased force needed for each available piece of wood - without spacers. USed a fist cast from lead and all sorts of force gauges. I don't think the same formula applies for spacers. But everything will change radically due to needing to maintain a certain level of force over a greater distance with spacers.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
So, skribs are you also referring to moving in the direction the toes are pointing or perpendicular to that direction i.e. sideways?
skribs
Grandmaster
Depends on what you consider your frame of reference for "forward". The move in question starts from a front walking stance, and you step forward (from that stance) and pivot into a horse stance.
OP
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dvcochran
Grandmaster
The board break is horizontal, the block break is vertical. Long block breaks do not travel the entire length of the block stack because each block fills the void and breaks the next block, kind of like dominos falling; but I get what you are saying.
At either height, I can feel a painful pulling in my triceps when doing it palm-up.
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