Elbow/Pullback Position in AK?

[Rainman]

Remember, I'm narrow. If I'm off to read about zen, it's going to be about zen, and not a collection of observations or sayings collected by a practicing mormon in the name of zen that has nothing to do with expansion into the void, contraction and extinction of the ego, or contacting the Other I (see...at the risk of sounding like I'm dropping names again...Ramana Maharsi, Paul Brunton, or Alan Watts).

It doesn't? Says who? YOU again? Look up what is says about black dot focus and white dot focus. I just used material out of the book in question and by your responses you don't understand it. Which is cool you are not an AK Blackbelt but don't tell someone who is how the Zen of Kenpo relates to AK.

I'll remind swimmers they're being restrictive in their thinking and limited in their practice by working on their stroke in the pool.

When would that be? When they are in the water tank being tested for efficiency by scientists? It is similar to a wind tunnel so no they are not just practicing their stroke they are working on the efficiency of their stroke which includes breathing 1) when to release 2) how much to release etc...
AK is no different, it is designed to use anything and everything including all modern technology as well as TCM.

Back to the chambered postion- It is what you know that can make it only a chambered postion. Then again you say you studied a "more pure" version of AK... When pure knuckles meet pure flesh- that's pure kenpo dude. :rtfm:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Surely, in my days of practice, it never occurred to me to breathe. Or to put thought into agonist/ antagonist relationships, especially after many hours in Functional Anatomy & Biomechanics at school. Surely, I've never heard of dot focus (was that before or after dot com?). I, too, have the great kenpo books (actually read them a couple times, too), but rather than memorize or dig out quotes to regurgitate on forum pages, I try to live outside the box...I mean, books. FYI - I used the term 'more pure' to indicate that is stuck to an older IKKA format, cirricula and training, as opposed to blending kenpo into an eclectic melange (my first system of ken/mpo), and I do have my black belt in that; I just didn't have the desire to remember all the acu-flap. Had to...probably like you...study the heck out of Parker's publications, and provide theses about kenpo concepts.

As for the YOU again? thing...who's the authority in your life? I'm quite content being self-referent, even if you have to find your authority in the thoughts and definitions of others. Grow, man, grow. Could it be there's more to philosophy and spiritual study - that's even applicable to kenpo - then what's contained in the ZOK? Bring on some more acu-flap...it's making me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Drink some wine, take a deep breath, and relax. It's only life, and this too shall pass.

D.

 

[Rainman]

That is the whole thing about II's and ZOK... If you stop with the definitions provided so does your Kenpo. This is another misuse of white dot focus- meaning you only see what you see. The elbow pullback position- like taking a snapshot in the middle of an arm break tek done without a partner and saying the head is open for a strike. It is a reasonable conclusion because that is what you see. The opponent is really dimensionally cked (height width and depth) but to someone not knowing the tek they are not able to see this. That is only one use of a chambered postion. I have 20 uses for it off the top of my head- the unfortunate thing is some teachers stop with opposing forces which is a power enhancer- rephrase- could be a power enhancer and one of the first uses learned about the position

If a person is in the mechanical stage of learning an elbow pullback is a death sentence when you go live. It should not be done randomly because obviosly you will get slapped in the side of the head during simulated combat.

Who is the authority in my life? Good question- I'll let you know if I ever make that acknowledgment

Acu flap is what?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Just for the record, I use the elbow pull back position for many things, including applications in SD teks. If I remember correctly (and I'm too lazy to scroll back and look), the guy asking this Q wasn't even from kenpo. I'm techno-centric enough to assume that means he will - in his art of origin - never be exposed to the multiplicity of possible and/or probable apps a kenpoka will. He'll just be a guy, walking around with his elbow on his hip while doing everything from reverse punches to spinning back hooking heel kicks (where it functions as a positional check to protect belt loops during the spin?*facetious, but not towards you)*. For someone in a system/art not exploring the mechanics of motion, the chambered position constitutes a liability: If I can get one JMA or KMA guy to get his hands out of the down-block position or off the hip, and up near his face, I think I'll have done that person a service when he squares off in a parking lot somewhere, and there is less distance for his hands to travel to cover his head against a haymaker.

Contrary to popular belief, I hold nothing personal against having the wrist supinated and placed at the hip. Great for lots of things, but not for a static position in training or combat, and that was the impression I recieved from the guy who started the thread. I think he/she even said something about not being from kenpo, so throwing us the ball to see where we went with it. If I could have answered most candidly, I would have suggested that training in stand-up other than kenpo AND boxing is an absolute waste of time, energy and money, but that's hardly PC in an MA chat.

Acu-flap is an affectionate knickname in kenpo circles for the definitions, concepts, etc., in kenpo. Accurate wording of and for specific attributes of motion, which require a lot of flappin of the jaw to get out because some of them are long, or so intimately woven with others that a simple idea can't be represented linguistically with just one definition/phrase/comment. Accurate flapping. I.e., a boxer will just "put weight behind the punch". A kenpoka will employ marriage of gravity (mentioning the phrase, then citing the definition as close to verbatim as we can), adding... (and so on), taking a paragraph to accurately describe an idea someone else may say in a half sentence.

Train hard and conquer,

D.

 

[Rainman]

Nothing wrong with being anti pc- who wants to be herded with the rest of the cattle anyways.

Thanks for the weapon- er definintion I mean :boing2:

:asian:

 

[CombatWombat51]

Much thanks for everyone's replies on my question... even if a good deal of them played the tune of "If you don't know what I'm thinking, then I won't tell you! Nyaaa! " Saying that one can think of at least 20 uses for a chambered position, but not sharing them, doesn't really convince me.


I've gone through this thread, and here's what people have said about the concrete uses of the chambered position:

1. If you were attacked IRL, your hands would be at your sides, and that mirrors a chambered position.

2. Practice full range of motion to engage proper muscle groups.

3. In retracting, it teaches us about elbow strikes to the rear.

4. "... a double arm break as in snakes of wisdom and marriage of the rams and always a transitional movement..." I have no idea what snakes of wisdom or marriage of the rams are, or how returning to a chambered position could result in a "double arm break", though many people say the position teaches arm breaks and joint locks. I don't get that, so hopefully someone will explain. The part I do like and understand about that quote is how it's a transitional movement.

5. Not training for a chambered position, and presumably a horse stance, means the student is not training basics. I don't get that either. To me, basics mean stuff like punches, kicks, blocks, and things like that. Basic motions that get expanded on in techniques. I don't see what is so basic about chambering. Traditional, sure. But basic? Maybe someone can explain that to me.

6. My favorite explanation "I caution those who are in such a hurry to throw things out they don't understand. I suggest that one accumulate significant knowledge of the subject matter before making rash judgements as to what is, and what is not valid. Clearly it was put there, and is represented in most martial arts for a reason. More than likely if you give it consideration, all of these different disciplines couldn't be completely wrong."

I think it was "put in there" for a reason, too. In Shaolin, they use a chambered position that's more relaxed, and the fists basically rest where we wear our belts. This is to focus our chi, since the point between the two hands is the center of our chi.

If you believe that martial arts, or at least kenpo, came from Shaolin, then that is why "it was put there". Tradition.

Note that, personally, I don't believe in chi or ki or whatever, but that's what monks told me, and they're cooler than me, so I believe them


There were also a lot of posts about, um, white dots, zen, marriage of opposites, and other things that are all completely foreign to me :idunno: I don't nearly understand that stuff, AK not being my core style, so I can't really comment or consider that stuff unless someone explained all that to me, which would be quite a pain for the explainer, I'm sure


So, did I miss any major reasons? Was that a decent summary of why AK, and other styles, use a chambered position? I'm trying not to simply argue and disagree, but to understand. I came to the AK forum with my question because practitioners of AK seem to have the most logical and thought out reasons for doing the things they do. I might not agree with all of it, but I like knowing both sides of the coin :asian:

Oh, and sorry for taking so long on getting back to this monster I've created. I ended up moving a week early, and I haven't had net access for a bit

 

[Doc]

'ya musta missed it... here it is reprinted for your convenience:

well Dr. C, here goes my attempt to put this into words.

first, the corkscrew as refered to by Kembudo-Kai Kempoka, is a punch i am interpreting to contain an inward rotation of the fist, from vertical to horizontal.

OK let's stop there. The punch (as you call it) is used in many ways exclusive of the described stance and footwork, so let's discuss it as an entity unto itself. First, this horizontal position with the palm down rotated from essentially the hip area is NOT a punch.

If this done as the rear ankle turns the heel outward and down into the ground, going from neutral to forward bow, the corkscrew will use "torque", or whole body power focused into the first 2 knuckles of the fist.

As previously stated, remove the stance and lets discuss the question at hand which is about "chambering."

A punch from a horse stance is deriving its power solely from the upper body, and the corkscrew will not change that.

Believe it or not, depending on other mechanisms, that is not true.

Therefore, "useless" if that is the goal. I'd be interested if there was another goal that this technique would leverage and not compromise one's anatomical structure.

Glad you asked. The "pull back" or "chambered" position sets the alignment (depending on hand position) of the upper body in anticipation of "punching." No matter how other alternative hand positions might be deployed, or other physical mechanisms added, none set the anatomical alignment like the counter resistance "pull back chamber."

Now, given that description of the corkscrew, it should not be used above the height of one's own shoulder... rather, the fist should remain vertical.

Interesting assessment that is NOt correct, but only because your understanding of the application is somewhat flawed. I know you have at least seen A good boxer throw a "stiff thrusting jab" which is essentially the same position you describe. Would you like to be on the end of one of those? I wouldn't. So you see it does have significant value. But understand this. That is NOT a punch but the extension of a punch. It anatomically is not designed to be used with the intent of the contact coming AFTER the rotation. The rotated position occurs AFTER the contact in the focus or follow through of the vertical position. If ones intent is to throw a "horizontal punch" about the shoulder, minus this rather large caveat, you are correct. (Alright I'll give you a half credit for that one.)

But further this postion is also utilized in the American Kenpo I was taught by the "Kahuna' (Parker) as a BRACE AND a misalignment tool in self-defense technical interaction, as well as a mechanism to "control space" (among other things)

my previous post was more of a response to rmcrobertson, kembudo-kai kempoka, and dark kenpo lord. like the saying goes, "i'm just a product of me environment"

So am I.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Here's something I got in conversation with Das Clyde: posture is important. Don't teach horse stance, don't teach solid punches out of the old-fashioned way to begin--teach bad posture, and all that follows from bad posture.

For example, I was taught Short 2 with serious wide kneels, and pivots into cat stances and blocks from wide kneels. Uhm...tried a wide kneel with a bent back? Then there's learning techniques such as Shield and Mace--whose slicing knife-edge side-kick out of a wide kneel following that outward hand-sword is made into meaningless hash by bad posture...which leads into the unending nightmare for students and spectators that is Long 4 without good posture going in...

There is, last in this post, the way that taking out the punches and horse stances makes certain aspects of the system--the end of Long 1, say--incomprehensible. Which is, perhaps, why a) you often see them done so badly, or b) changed into meaninglessness, or c) dropped altogether.

I'm wit' Doc, here. Leave it be; it ain't broke.

 

[CombatWombat51]

I don't understand exactly what you're saying, rmcrobertson, but I think the gist of it is that we need horse stances because forms look funny without them? And are you saying that doing strikes from a horse leads to bad posture or doing strikes outside of a horse leads to bad posture?

 

[pete]

i have no problem with chambering or doing drills out of a horse stance for training purposes, or focusing on a technique in isolation. my point was, and still is, that the proverbial corkscrew is not adding torque, unless you come out of the horse and add whole body unity of motion.

i appreciate both Mr Billings' description of muscle mechanics and Doc's differentiation of the point of contact vs follow-through position. These are both very practical and succinct rationale for their applications.

Doc, you're last reply says that it is in fact possible to generate whole body power when punching out of a stationary horse stance, "depending on other mechanisms...". . Could you explain these mechanisms?

i guess one way is if the punch is not directed straight ahead, but to a target off-center, where a shift in weight and turning of the hips would involve power from the lower body...

pete.

 

[Doc]

i have no problem with chambering or doing drills out of a horse stance for training purposes, or focusing on a technique in isolation. my point was, and still is, that the proverbial corkscrew is not adding torque, unless you come out of the horse and add whole body unity of motion.

i appreciate both Mr Billings' description of muscle mechanics and Doc's differentiation of the point of contact vs follow-through position. These are both very practical and succinct rationale for their applications.

Doc, you're last reply says that it is in fact possible to generate whole body power when punching out of a stationary horse stance, "depending on other mechanisms...". . Could you explain these mechanisms?

i guess one way is if the punch is not directed straight ahead, but to a target off-center, where a shift in weight and turning of the hips would involve power from the lower body...

pete.

I usually hate to resort to “tired” simplistic quotes some instructors use to make themselves sound like they know what they’re talking about, but in this case I’ll use one that is very useful to illustrate this particular point.

You spoke of how the punch derives its power from the rotation of the hip, foot, etc.

Ed Parker Sr. says, “For every principle, concept, theory, move, etc, there is always an opposite or a reverse.”

Consider this: If you can stand in a horse stance (neutral bow) and derive power from rotating into a forward bow – can’t you do the same from a forward bow and rotating back into a horse?

I would say yes.

Can you say, “Shield and Mace?”

Shield and Mace, (as I was taught) has you step forward toward 10:30 into a forward bow, and then rotate back to a horse stance for the punch. When executed this way properly, this methodology has all the same characteristics of the opposite execution.

When executed properly and coupled with mechanisms that align your body platforms properly, this methodology is as devastating as the opposite execution, and just as stable.

The stability of a horse stance is "actively engaged" not passively as in training. If you just stand in a horse and have some one push you from the front, you'll ultimately be pushed backwards and lose balance. However when "actively engaged" as it is designed to function, your attacker cannot move you, even though you're in a "horse stance." I've challenged people to move me pushing from the front in a cat stance, and even standing on one foot and they were unsuccessful. the secret is "active engagement" not "static execution."

What do you think Pete?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I usually hate to resort to “tired” simplistic quotes some instructors use to make themselves sound like they know what they’re talking about, but in this case I’ll use one that is very useful to illustrate this particular point.

You spoke of how the punch derives its power from the rotation of the hip, foot, etc.

Ed Parker Sr. says, “For every principle, concept, theory, move, etc, there is always an opposite or a reverse.”

Consider this: If you can stand in a horse stance (neutral bow) and derive power from rotating into a forward bow – can’t you do the same from a forward bow and rotating back into a horse?

I would say yes.

Can you say, “Shield and Mace?”

Shield and Mace, (as I was taught) has you step forward toward 10:30 into a forward bow, and then rotate back to a horse stance for the punch. When executed this way properly, this methodology has all the same characteristics of the opposite execution.

When executed properly and coupled with mechanisms that align your body platforms properly, this methodology is as devastating as the opposite execution, and just as stable.

The stability of a horse stance is "actively engaged" not passively as in training. If you just stand in a horse and have some one push you from the front, you'll ultimately be pushed backwards and lose balance. However when "actively engaged" as it is designed to function, your attacker cannot move you, even though you're in a "horse stance." I've challenged people to move me pushing from the front in a cat stance, and even standing on one foot and they were unsuccessful. the secret is "active engagement" not "static execution."

What do you think Pete?

Its not just sheild and mace, that horse happens every time you shift out of a forward bow.
Sean

 

[pete]

... the secret is "active engagement" not "static execution."

What do you think Pete?

Pete agrees... and appreciates the dialog.

 

[Doc]

Pete agrees... and appreciates the dialog.

As do I Pete. Or as they say on the block, "Backatcha."

 

[Doc]

Its not just sheild and mace, that horse happens every time you shift out of a forward bow.
Sean

Really? Who woulda thunkit?

 

[Kenpomachine]

The stability of a horse stance is "actively engaged" not passively as in training. If you just stand in a horse and have some one push you from the front, you'll ultimately be pushed backwards and lose balance. However when "actively engaged" as it is designed to function, your attacker cannot move you, even though you're in a "horse stance." I've challenged people to move me pushing from the front in a cat stance, and even standing on one foot and they were unsuccessful. the secret is "active engagement" not "static execution."

What do you think Pete?

How can you "actively engage" the horse or cat stance? Backing up with your body mass? Not breaking the alignment of the body? Is it similar to beeing rooted?

I think I don't even understand completely what I'm talking and reading about, so please excuse my ignorance :asian:

 

[Doc]

How can you "actively engage" the horse or cat stance? Backing up with your body mass? Not breaking the alignment of the body? Is it similar to beeing rooted?

By using it as it was intended, and not just as a training device. "Rooting" (as you call it) is A component of that "Active Engagement," but very few know how to achieve it in actuality.

 

[Kenpomachine]

By using it as it was intended, and not just as a training device. "Rooting" (as you call it) is A component of that "Active Engagement," but very few know how to achieve it in actuality.

I certainly don't, as much as I would like to. Stability is one of my main problems... At least I'm getting some good leads as to how I must correct it from my instructor, though

 

[Doc]

I certainly don't, as much as I would like to. Stability is one of my main problems... At least I'm getting some good leads as to how I must correct it from my instructor, though

Yes it is obscure information that should be taught, because you will not stumble upon it by accident on "a journey." It is a specific methodlogy that should be in a knowledgeable teachers repertoire. I teach a major portion of it to my white belts as a part of stances, posture, and footwork basics.