Elbow/Pullback Position in AK?

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Bruce Lee in JKD, and many kick-boxing systems, do not have the chambered position, or even the back elbow. Doesn't seem to have hurt their combat capabilities any. Just a thought. I like Mr. Connasters website; has a joke about the definition of karate guys being those who like to get hit a lot, as evidenced by their hand placement on the hip during sparring. The post wasn't about sophisticated basics (because the guy doesn't even know what they are...not from kenpo), but about considering eliminating a non-useful training position. My girlfriend, with no martial arts experience, gets it. Why don't you? If you want to train back elbows, then train back elbows. I don't practice stomps with each step of walking; I practice stomps, when I practice stomps.

Until we meet again in the place where we are all one,

Dr. Dave

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Hey "Hot-Rod",

If you want to train back elbows, then train back elbows. I don't practice stomps with each step of walking; I practice stomps, when I practice stomps.

I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

After I punch I don't rechamber, I move on to the next target utilizing a little concept I like to call point of origin (okay so I didn't make it up but the way people talk you would think no one has heard of it). The only reason to have any body punch from a horse stance and repeatedly rechamber is to isolate the particular punch from all other movement. This might prove useful when teaching beginners (white belts), but even then I'm not sure this is the best way to go. I would much rather teach someone how to punch in a manner that they might need in real life (self-defense, sparring, etc.) utilizing full body mechanics, rather than in some traditional stance that has been around for hundreds of years.

This goes for elbows too, just because I don't rechamber when I spar or do the SD techs doesn't mean I can't execute a back, obscure, overhead, or whatever other type of elbow. Such logic is pretty silly.

How's this for an example? The basic mechanics of several kicks are present in the standard human gait, yet even with the presence of these common aspects of motion it still takes people quite a bit of training time to learn to kick correctly. I know what you are thinking, "well that's just insane most people have been walking for years. Why can't they kick right?" :uhyeah:
So one might assume that specific specialized training is what achieves results, not the mere presence of a position or movement in a form or set of basics. This translates into a number of specific areas, many of which have been beaten to death so I won't bring them up..... again.

Lastly, this if for the number of people have been arguing over the point of corkscrewing your punches. Well, do you guys happen to know why, when, or even how far you should corkscrew your punches(assuming you should )? If you don't know why you do it, are you just doing it because someone taught you to do it, possibly from a horse stance utilizing the chambered position?

Why is it when I read threads like this I hear that song from Fiddler on the Roof playing in my head? What was the name of that song again....... Oh yeah.....

 

[CombatWombat51]

Rest assured, this is a serious question, although I knew that some folks would take it as an insult to tradition or the wisdom of various GMs. However, I also have an irritating schedule of 12 hour days, and my next chance to make a significant post will be on the 24th... I hope my thread doesn't get argued away without me :uhyeah:

Meanwhile, many thanks for everyones' thoughts, especially to the AK practitioners that can put my thoughts into more understandable words than I can :asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Hey "Hot-Rod",

Well, do you guys happen to know why, when, or even how far you should corkscrew your punches(assuming you should )? If you don't know why you do it, are you just doing it because someone taught you to do it, possibly from a horse stance utilizing the chambered position?

Why is it when I read threads like this I hear that song from Fiddler on the Roof playing in my head? What was the name of that song again....... Oh yeah.....

"Corkscrew" - A function of correct Range and proper body mechanics to maximize the generation of power, at least the way I teach it to beginners. Proper motion learned through static stances does not limit my guys who cross over into boxing. Mr. Sepulvedas' who also train basics HARD, and Mr. LaBounty's students, who do basics HARD for an eternity, before going out and winning tournaments and full contact fights. Hmmm.... so maybe I am missing your point. Don't do basics if you don't want to. So long as you learn the motion. Do not label them as "useless" or "un-useful" for others, who find merit in them. Further, I would ask if you are teahing Mr. Parker's Kenpo if you choose not to teach the basics as he set up? Sets, Forms, Freestyle Basics (not chambered) etc. It seems like you are arguing a method of learning, that was certainly considered by Mr. Parker. He was well aware of the system he was creating, and how he chose to structure the learning of the system. You can teach any way your little heart desires ... and call it YOUR system. But do not take away from his! He had plenty of time to cull basics, freestyles etc., and I do believe that he would have continued to evolve, maybe more ground work, more knife techniques, and continued to sophisticate what we had, but the basics for teaching a beginner are well set out, and appear appropriate retrospectively.

Once again, do what you want, but take credit for it if you are choosing to alter it. It is sounding pretty Jeet Kune Do'ish to me, nothing wrong with that, just different.

-Michael

 

[pete]

Next you say, "...the corkscrew from a horse stance is useless ..." I'm curious as to how you arrive at that conclusion. Follwed by, "...a corkscrew to a target above one's own shoulder height height is anatomically incorrect." Interesting assessment and perspective that is actually right and wrong depending upon assumptions about what a "corkscrew" punch actually is. Help me out Pete, and explain.

well Dr. C, here goes my attempt to put this into words.

first, the corkscrew as refered to by Kembudo-Kai Kempoka, is a punch i am interpreting to contain an inward rotation of the fist, from vertical to horizontal. If this done as the rear ankle turns the heel outward and down into the ground, going from neutral to forward bow, the corkscrew will use "torque", or whole body power focused into the first 2 knuckles of the fist.

A punch from a horse stance is deriving its power solely from the upper body, and the corkscrew will not change that. Therefore, "useless" if that is the goal. I'd be interested if there was another goal that this technique would leverage and not compromise one's anatomical structure.

Now, given that description of the corkscrew, it should not be used above the height of one's own shoulder... rather, the fist should remain vertical.

I'd refer posters who believe that there is no purpose in training a, "corkscrew," punch from a horse stance to Ed Parker and Tom Gow, "Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate, Vol. 1: The Basics," pages 15-16: "The basic corkscrew punch starts in a horse stance with the hands cocked at the waist...." rmcrobertson

well, rather than quoting the Who and the How, I'd be much more interested in understanding the Why...

 

[rmcrobertson]

Yes, yes, point of origin. Yes, yes, the utilization of stance. Yes, sure, absolutely, efficient movement, rounding corners, flattening circles, yes, sure, whatever.

I'm talking about a) teaching properly, and learning properly; b) developing a sort of, "template," that's at the bottom of the "more-sophisticated," moves; c) training full range of motion; d) avoiding editing out useful motions.

For openers, one teaches, "corkscrew," punches out of a horse stance to a) teach the proper ideal motion of a punch; b) teach/learn rooting upper body motions in lower body stances; c) begin to work on developing musculature/muscle memory.

Or, there're the variations of punches at the end of Long 1.

If that don't float your boat, try considering the chambering of the fist in: a) Destructive Twins; b) Unwinding Pendulum; c) Desperate Falcons; d) Crossing Talon.

Incidentally, the, "why," cannot posssibly appear if you change the basic out of all recognition. And, "training stomps," will hurt yer knees, as well as violate a general kenpo principle of taking advantage of natural motion.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Michael Billings]

Expounding on Natural Motion, it occurs to me that not everyone may know WHY we do the rotation of the punch and did not understand the RANGE function I reference. If you do, I apologize in advance for reiterating something taught so early on.

Try a simple experiment.

Part 1: Fist at your side, palm up, in the "chambered" position. Place your hand against the student's and tell them to push you away. They are very strong the 1st 1/3 of the movement, as the arm extends, the power is reduced geometrically, as opposing muscles come into play. This shows how strong an uppercut is with just the arm, then add proper body mechanics.

Part 2: Fist at your side, palm down, in the "chambered" postion. Same drill - place your hand against the student's and tell them to push you away. They are weak initially and unable to push very hard (and you wonder why bench presses are harder near the chest?); then they get stronger, the further from the body the arm extends. The power is increased as antagonistic muscles are released from opposition.

I talk to my beginners about the natural way the arm moves. The verticle punch is intermediate range and the motion is "as if" reaching for a glass of water at a head high level, then point at someone as your palm turns downward, longer range. I finally add the inverted verticle as the maximum extension availble to a punch, and all as a Natural progression being a function of range.

Sorry I waxed so long.

-Michael

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Proper motion learned through static stances does not limit my guys who cross over into boxing. Mr. Sepulvedas' who also train basics HARD, and Mr. LaBounty's students, who do basics HARD for an eternity, before going out and winning tournaments and full contact fights. Hmmm.... so maybe I am missing your point. Don't do basics if you don't want to.

First off, I never said we should dump basics, but come on.... other than full body isolation what is the purpose of repeatedly punching from a horse stance? Would it not be more beneficial to teach your guys how to punch from a N.B.? This way you can address more practical things like over-rotation of the back foot, overrotation of the punch, hitting with a path on the down side of the circle from a guarded position, utilizing body rotation and body drop to add speed and power to the punch. I'm not saying that learning to punch from a horse stance is limiting anyone, but I'm not sure that it's really helping a whole lot either. This just seems to be one of those inert training tools.

Robertson
I'm talking about a) teaching properly, and learning properly; b) developing a sort of, "template," that's at the bottom of the "more-sophisticated," moves; c) training full range of motion; d) avoiding editing out useful motions.

Define teaching and learning properly. Are these templates not included in the techniques? Where, I might add, they serve a specific specialized feature and aren't just some abstract motion. Full range of motion might be necessary for strength training, but this isn't really necessary when learning a fighting art. Going through the full range of motion will leave you over extended in most cases (i.e. open and indefensible). As for editing out useful motions, I guess that depends on how you're training.

Good thread people.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

There's another piece to what I'm saying that seems to be getting dropped. Mr. Parker stressed in seminar after seminar (and I think in one of the Infinte Insights books or Chinese Karate, too, but I'd have to scan the series to look it up) that kenpo is a smorgasbord (my words); that it represents a complete system, but is not intended to be used, completely (his words). Everybodies body differs, in strength-weakness ratios of various kinematic chains, leg-to-waist ratio, arm length, height, etc. The idea of providing a comprehensive system is so that students can take the techniques best suited to their individual strengths, and capitalize on them (as opposed to insisting that the stubby-legged TKD students learn the same material - with the same intensity- as the long-legged ones).

Exposure to the basics - and their variations and adaptations - is to provide choice, not adherence to the Gospel of Kenpo according to EP. He vehemently insisted that he wanted people to take what he taught, and THINK...not regurgitate. Self-Defense techs were not designed to be executed step-by-step in response to specific attacks on ones person, but rather to demonstrate principles, teach students how to "stack" combinations to utilize various principles, and to train the eye to find or make the next available target, then hit it with the next available natural weapon. To that effect, the basics - and their multiple potential applications - were presented to open our eyes, not close them.

An inward block is also an inward hammerfist is also an inward knuckle rake...It was to wake us up to the potentials hidden within universal movements, not bind us to a new dogma.

I can't stand visiting AK schools, and hearing discussions like:
Student: "The guy swung on me, and I tried 5 swords, but he hit me with his other hand.."
Instructor: "That's because you don't settle into the proper weight distribution with the outward handsword...if you did that, you would have dropped the guy because of marriage of gravity and blah blah blah..."

I miss SGM Parker's brilliance as much as or more than the next guy, but let's not make the same silly mistake the midieval church did over the teachings of Christ. A gospel of love, forgiveness, teaching, healing and servitude to the Good was perverted into a message of rules, sins, guilt and damnation, dogmatized in the absence of the messages originator, in the name of the originator. Odd thing: Same book. Think. Did SGM EP write Infinite Insights to inform cognition and development, or enslave it?

Humbly yours, and sounding like JKD because EP and BL shared a lot of the same ideas publicly and privately,

Dr. Dave:enguard:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

And, "training stomps," will hurt yer knees, as well as violate a general kenpo principle of taking advantage of natural motion.

As per my immediately previous quote, god forbid we violate a general kenpo principle, and put some time into tempering a stomp, the same way we might temper punches on the heavy bag. Or are kenpoists just supposed to hit air, and themselves? (yes, I know about fulcrums and checks...I'm being facetious (sp?)):asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

No, ectually, you shouldn't stomp because a) you will hurt your knees; b) the stomps are included with various techniques, sets, etc.,...unless of course you fix the system so that it does not have these things any more.

Once again the simple binary opposition: please read the posts, in which I did not argue for slavish anything. I argued for knowledge.

Case in point: how 'bout the pointless chambers in the techniques I asked about?

And don't know about where you train, but where I train, if you get hit with theleft in 5 Swords, it's because you screwed up the technique's checks.

One suggestion: "slavish," doesn't lie in learning the basics and teaching them. It lies in repeating somebody else's errors because you skipped over all the hard stuff; it lies in reciting dead cliches from poor dead Bruce Lee, rather than in trying to learn the system through hard training.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

No, ectually, you shouldn't stomp because a) you will hurt your knees; b) the stomps are included with various techniques, sets, etc.,...unless of course you fix the system so that it does not have these things any more.

Once again the simple binary opposition: please read the posts, in which I did not argue for slavish anything. I argued for knowledge.

Case in point: how 'bout the pointless chambers in the techniques I asked about?

And don't know about where you train, but where I train, if you get hit with theleft in 5 Swords, it's because you screwed up the technique's checks.

One suggestion: "slavish," doesn't lie in learning the basics and teaching them. It lies in repeating somebody else's errors because you skipped over all the hard stuff; it lies in reciting dead cliches from poor dead Bruce Lee, rather than in trying to learn the system through hard training.

You'll hurt your knees if you keep them locked, or only slightly bent, and fail to tilt at the waist. A non-injurious stomp can be practiced on a heavy bag, laying it on the ground, by maximizing hip and knee flexion of the striking leg prior to executing the stomp; by lowering onto the base leg by bending at the knee, hip, and waist, and by tilting the torso slightly anteriorly. I'd rather know what I can and cannot do in the studio before trying it in the street. Should we avoid working punches on the heavy bag, because they're in the techniques, and can't be trained without re-writing the system? Incidently, I got this idea from TAI Karate; a kenpo offshoot by David German, one of Parkers early senior offshoots who combined kenpo with Chin Na and judo grappling. Lotsa guys in there practicing stomps on ground bags regularly, and their knees are fine. Been stomping since I was six (now pushin 39); knees are fine.

There are many advantages to makiwara-type training, whether upper or lower extremities, particularly as related to developing isolated power and focus.

BTW, Bruce Lee was not, and is not, the only low-dogmatic. I agreed with stuff said by Tony Blauer well before he becaome famous with his panic attack stuff...does that mean I'm a copy-cat? What if I like the way he says it better than I? (verbal economy). I mention BL b/c he's a recognized figure in MA. More than happy to use my own words to make a point, which I thought I did in the "bastardization of the gospel" reference. Don't think bruce used that one, but maybe I'm wrong.

Don't know where you train, but where I train, if you get hit with the left in 5 swords, it's because you were trying to use it for self-defense, rather than learning. Over white/orange belt? Simplicity should be next: check or slip the punch, and counter in a different or complementary plane. Screw the tech; Adapt to what presents (incidently, not Bruce...Musashi...hundreds of years before bruce.)

You'll find lotsa BL's stuff and EP's stuff echoing...Bruce spent many nights sleeping at the Pasadena school back in the day. Do you suppose it's possible he and Mr. Parker exchanged and discussed ideas?

 

[Kempojujutsu]

First of all I do not practice American Kenpo, rather Okinawa Kempo. They are rather similar. The corkscrew punch fits perfectly inside the rib cage (xiphoid process notch) A vertical or complete horizontal fist will not. 2nd the body can withstand a one directional blow. But if you twist and pull as you punch, you create several different directions which the punch comes from. The body can not withstand that. The hands held on the hips from Okinawan prospective, has many different meanings.
1. This is one target area the floaing ribs and is showning on yourself where to strike.
2. Trapping and checking someone's hand
3. Applying a joint lock
There are many more applicaions to the chamber on the hips. These are probably most common with Okinawan Kempo

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hm. I'm curious: what is it that you are adapting to what presents? What is it that you actually teach students?

And to go back: how, precisely, do you teach punches? I'm not asking what an advanced practitioner might do; I'm asking what you teach.

And I remain curious about the uses of chambering in the teachniques I mentioned...

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I encourage curiosity. It's a good state, and may mean one's about to learn something new...if, in fact, the curiosity is genuine. And, since I've yet to see someone in any of these forums change their mind by arguing semantics, I will opt to remain artfully vague at this juncture.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

With respect to what I teach, I have elected to modify many components of techniques that have seemed to me to be just plain silly. Many chambered positions have been replaced with a positioned check at the heart or face level, including in SF1 & 2, LF1, etc. I teach my students to go from point of origin to point of contact...from the rear-hand check, into the strike. I do not teach straight EPAK, having added "chapters" in the book to include FMA and GJJ/BJJ, as well as JKD modified kickboxing and muay thai. In some cases I have kept the name, but changed the technique completely in order to incorporate desired changes. And to head off ire at the pass, I make no claims to teaching straight EPAK. I also inform students at each point in the road if the SD tech they're learning is from a) old kenpo (one borrowed form an old break-away school), EA kenpo, or a kenpo technique modified. I also teach them what the mods were, and why, and invite them to discuss with me after class if they desire to learn the "traditional" EPAK version of a technique. At that point, I reference the IKKA manual, and old class & training session notes.

I'm quite OK with not sticking to the way things are written in the IKKA manual...the way I learned them, and practiced them for over 15 years, before opting to make what I considered to be informed modifications, necessary for evolution. Kenpo is, to me, the best foundation art anyone in the world could study, and any serious student on a lifelong MA journey should spend at least 10-12 years, 3-4x/week training in kenpo. After that, they should move out of the house to see what the rest of the world has to offer. The vocabulary of motion learned in kenpo will forever serve to help them learn more, faster, because of the way they have learned to codify movements of the human body.

IMHO.

Namaste!

Dr. Dave

 

[rmcrobertson]

Thank you for the response. Next question: and how, exactly, did you learn to make these adaptations?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Thank you for the response. Next question: and how, exactly, did you learn to make these adaptations?

Glad you asked. As I said on other threads, I've always been a fan of challenge matches, and of training with other martial artists from diffferent backgrounds. Have kick-boxed, did GJJ/BJJ before most of the woprld even knew what it was (when the US presence was still mostly a presence among a small contingency of So Cal surfers, lawyers, and other riff-raff); have bounced in rowdy dives for about a decade, during which time got in literally hundreds of altercations, giving me ample opportunity to try out different techniques under fire; have taken many challenge matches with other martial artists from various backgrounds to answer the simple question: does it work? Kenpo is an excellent art and education, but does not prepare for all probabilities. Have had my a** kicked, and seen other kenpo black belts get theirs. Look, listen, and learn.

If you're training with a TAI or Judo guy every saturday for a couple years, and he has a better solution to a side headlock then Twirling Hammers, then pick it up and add it to the bag of pearls. Locking horns may work against a naive opponent who gets you in a front headlock, but against a grappler who has you in a standing guillotine? Better learn some grappling escapes, or get used to going to sleep.

Is it all my imagination? No. After only 3 months of training with the Gracies, I sparred/grappled with a kenpo senior who was - at the time - one of the only other kenpoists to preach grappling. He taught the combat wrestling for a large metro PD, and had spent about as many years as I was alive training with a guy who combined kenpo with judo, and made a name for himslef as a skilled wrassler. We wnt for best 2/3. No wait, let's try 3/5. Hold on, this can't be happening. The guy was so stoked, he wanted to know where he could get some. Gave him some leads, and think he ended up with the Machado's. Anyway, that Metro PD now had BJJ fundamentals taught as part fo their hand to hand cirriculum. The guy had kept training, and has since far surpassed me. But he is a recognized kenpo senior, who's name would be recognized on this forum, and who also cross trains and makes adaptations for the very same reasons: Many of the kenpo SD techs do not work against the non-naive.

I knew before SGM Parkers passing that grappling was the incoming wave, and that these Brazilian yahoo's were going to be a key part of it. Even spoke with him about it. Know what he did? Encouraged myself, and the others present at the conversation, to learn it. To absorb everything, then pare away what didn't work for us. Encouraged us never to believe everything they said, or for that matter, to believe everything he said.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Short answer would probably be that I learned to make these adaptations by modelling the way EP made his.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Hm. I'm curious: what is it that you are adapting to what presents? What is it that you actually teach students?

And to go back: how, precisely, do you teach punches? I'm not asking what an advanced practitioner might do; I'm asking what you teach.

And I remain curious about the uses of chambering in the teachniques I mentioned...

During a short truce in the Crusades, a western knight was dining in the tent of a Saracen lord, partaking of his hospitality. Full of himself and drink, the knight boasted about the power of his western broadsword. To illustrate his point, he laid a length of thick chain over a log, and with one mighty chop, cleaved the chain in half.

The Saracen lord said "that's impressive, but can your sword do this?". He tossed a handkerchief into the air, and flicked his lighter, thinnner scimitar past it many times. It fell to the floor in dozens of smaller pieces.

Moral: No one Way works for all situations. Study many paths so you have the flexibility to select from many tools, to find the one just right for the situation you are in.

Until we meet again in that place where we are all one,

Dr. Dave