How to defeat a Wrestler

[Yoshiyahu]

Question about Wrestling...why do you wrestle?

Do you believe in 90% of street fights will go to ground?

If you have multiple attackers do you want to end up shooting for one of their legs and taking them to the ground?

Gblues I believe you said:

My father feels the same way about grappling as your husband, he thinks it's worthless

Can you explain why this is?

Poor Si-Je Also Several of you guys are beating up on Si-Je pretty badly...I mean come on give the lady a break...Women are more emotional than males...I personally don't care who disagrees with me...I aim to be disagreeable...lol...ha ha...But she had some valid post earlier...On how to defeat a grappler...

Si-Je had some good points:

Training "with" a good grappler is a good thing. Going to the classes and training exclusively in that style is another thing altogether.

We went to a BJJ seminar a couple of years back and took one of our students. He had one arm. Throughout the entire seminar we had to show him WT/WC anti-grappling techniques because the BJJ and wrestling techniques they were teaching all required two hands/arms.
If you learn to play/fight by those rules, you will be limited to those very grappling "rules" and techniques.

We workout with wrestlers, grapplers, etc, and it's really fun. But, I don't study these techniques and try to utilize them on an opponent. Why would I?

Why use up all that effort and energy to try to force a technique to work for me against giagantic hubbie when WC concepts save my skin everytime? Without the Pain and strain of using brute strength in disguise as leverage?

Over three years of Ju-Jitsu when I was a teenager, and two years of weight training taught me what it truely takes to make those techniques work when you truely need them. I'm a female, I can gain muscle mass, lift weights and all that jazz, but so can a man, and his muscle mass is just bigger/more. Better to stick to WC concepts and use his strength, speed, inertia, and force against him. Re-direction, deflection. And a wee bit of chi helps too. lol!

Si-Je again

Using only WC/WT concepts should suffice.
Rooting in stance is very important and extremely under appreciated.
re-direction/pivot of the opponents force and inertia using WC concepts.
The good old "sprawl" for closer shoots.

of course, attack and defense being the cause and result of the other, speed in response to opponents energy, follow up in striking (and kicking) immediately is cruitial to any WC/WT defense.

And my favorite, the anti-grappling techniques utilized in WT although others may give it little credit, I've seen it in action against grapplers/wrestlers/JKD/BJJ etc. and executed successfully many times. Even experimented with my own personal experiences and training.
I still think that training in an opponent's art/style will only enslave you to their way of fighting, thinking, and stratagy. Cross training can be useful and even fun, but focus on mastery and practical application of your art would be more useful in a fight.

Famous Si-Je Qoute:

I am very small, short, small boned, lean frame, etc. Using this type of strategy on the ground against someone who is twice my weight (littarly) will not help me in truth, and I have injured myself resisting and using force on force with these "leveraged" techniques against large people.

The best strategy is to get the grappler off you asap, get yourself in position to strike and repeatedly following up until they are done. Change their balance, motion, and body position so they cannot get set to lock out on you, or become positioned for a strong hold.
Negate their structure, balance, and force re-directing them into a position that is more advantageous for you.

I love wrestling, I love ju-jitsu! Ground fighting was sooooo fun! But, WC/WT concepts utilized against a grappler and in ground fighting is just more effecient to me than trying to return the same energy that a stronger, bigger attacker throws at me.

I know that grappling and BJJ have evolved and have been tested against alot of styles in the past and have done very well against alot of traditional martial arts; but that doesn't sway my understanding of WC's effectiveness, practicality, and usefulness in using against a grappler of any sort.

So in reality she had some great answers in the beginning...I think one you guys must have set her off or something...Lets reconcile and get back on point...Lets digress back to topic if you don't mind...Anyway...She loves Groundfighting but she hates BJJ...so lets let by gones be by gones...Personally I think any art someone takes time and dedication to practice diligently will be a great art for that person...Even if you gave a person Six Techiques to practice every day for Ten years eight hours a day they will be hard to beat. If they practice it diligently for instance.

Techinques
1.Front Kick
2.Side Kick
3.Front punches
4.Hook Punches
5.Throws
6.Round House kick

These seven techniques would be very powerful over ten years...Even with out forms and all the knowledge...they would grow and become powerful. and people would a hard time defeating them...why because they practice every day for eight hours a day there front kick side kick round house hook throw and front punches.

I personally see nothing wrong with ground fighting are wrestling. I personally just don't like watching it. It sorta of bores me. I love to see fist and feet flying an blocks and bobing and weaving and evasive manuvenurs going.

So let me redirect question:

How can you defeat a wrestler while being a Wing Chun purist with out using Wrestling techniques and still maintian Wing Chun principals, Structure and Flow?

 

[GBlues]

Seriously GBlues? Your talking about VT guy that went in the ring? I didn't see a lick of anything resembling WT/WC/VT, don't even know where he learned that stuff or if he was even a real student of wing chun.
Sure, I'll just say I'm a kempo master and go in the octogon people will believe me.

And no, you don't need BJJ. I didn't start this thread. This thread was started to discuss techniques for beating a wrestler/bjj/grappler. I've stated some very good techniques, and people just jump on the band wagon that you've JUST GOT TO USE BJJ! I disagree. Simple.

Yes you have made some very good statements about techniques. My humblest apologies. Now back to the topic, at hand.

 

[GBlues]

Gblues I believe you said:
Quote:
My father feels the same way about grappling as your husband, he thinks it's worthless
Can you explain why this is?


Yeah, my pops believe it takes to long to defeat you opponent in a grappling situation. The other problem is if your small like me (I'm 5'3" tall), a bigger opponent has the upper hand. Generally speaking they are going to be stonger, and weigh more. I have been in very few confrontations with guys my size. They are usually much bigger, (they just like me I guess ), and stronger. So to get into a wrestling match with a guy who is 6'1" tall, is not a good idea for me, no matter how good my techniques. Cause' it's probably going to go 45 minutes or longer, assuming I can hold him off that long. I don't pride myself on how long I can last, I pride myself on how fast it was ended. If you have good targeting, you can end a fight with strikes very quickly. In the converse if you have a good ground game it is possible to end it very quickly there, also. Just my fathers experience tells him that a going to the ground is a bad thing. I would agree. If I can stay on my feet I much prefer it, however, I have met guys that are alot faster than me, and I don't like getting my teeth knocked out. The safest place in a tornado is in the eye. So if I feel like I'm really getting the worst of the deal, I will try to take it to the ground, even with my limited knowledge of grappling, I feel confident enough, that the average joe, doesn't know as much as I do, and I have a chance there.

My dad's opinion on the matter of grappling is basically this. If a guy wants to roll around on the ground, when I tear his eyeballs out that's where he'll be. Right where he wants to be rolling around on the ground. Screaming about how he aint got eyes anymore. Gross, gory, definitely excessive force, but you get the point. His opinion is if a fight goes longer than two minutes your in trouble. THe longer it goes the more chance he has to hurt you. Two minutes is a long time, and you will start getting tired after that. Unless your a runner who has good endurance, but still you will, start getting tired at some point. Rolling around on the ground just takes to long, on average.

Now look at it from another angle. YOur in a confrontation, you punch a guy in the face, and bloody his nose. He shoots and you can't stop him. With the onset of AIDS in our day and age, it's NOT a good idea to take the chance on getting there blood in your mouth. It goes to the ground there is a good chance, some of his blood may get in your mouth. If it does, and he happens to pass along that particular disease, you may have beat him to bloody pulp, but he wins cause your going to die, and it ain't gonna' be pretty. All of those reasons are why my dad thinks grappling is worthless. He just has the opinion that striking is the best, it ends the fight faster, when used properly, and saves alot of wear and tear on your body, in a real confrontation. Anyways I hope that I answered your question.:asian:

 

[Si-Je]

Gblues, you'r pop's has it right. He's answered that question for you in the same or similar manner I would have.

As for getting "overemotional" I hope you guys had fun poking at Si-Je, lol!
But, realize taking BJJ doesn't make your "kempo" better, it just is another art you take other than kempo. Now, Tai Chi could make your wing chun better as an example.
But the two are so different they do conflict, that's what I've been trying to say.(ex. kempo and BJJ)
Aiki Ju-Jitsu is has a strong striking technique to it too, that might be more akin to kempo, and they do more technique standing. Just an example.

I've got lots of posts on here about how to defeate a wrestler with pure WC/WT which was the origional post. The BJJ got added by other folks that were missing the point of the post. That believe that WC/WT won't work against a wrestler or grappler. I so strongly disagree, I'm seriously re-considering my origional withdrawl from competition.

 

[MJS]

As for getting "overemotional" I hope you guys had fun poking at Si-Je, lol!
But, realize taking BJJ doesn't make your "kempo" better, it just is another art you take other than kempo. Now, Tai Chi could make your wing chun better as an example.
But the two are so different they do conflict, that's what I've been trying to say.(ex. kempo and BJJ)
Aiki Ju-Jitsu is has a strong striking technique to it too, that might be more akin to kempo, and they do more technique standing. Just an example.

Sorry, you're wrong. That is YOUR assumption. You would be surprised as to how easy I can go from a Kenpo tech., into a lock from Arnis, to a takedown and finish with a sub. from BJJ. The 3 blend very well together. You seem to think that its hard to transition from one to the next...it isn't.

Additionally, there are a number of takedown defenses in Kenpo. I like to test those defenses against a grappler...someone who really knows how to shoot in, not do some half assed attempt. By understanding how the grappler operates, I can adapt my Kenpo tech. to that. I'm not changing my tech., I'm simply making an adjustment, keeping the Kenpo principles, and completing the move. Now, you may be thinking, "Well, sure you're changing your Kenpo." No, I'm not, and the difference is this....if I was going to change the Kenpo tech., I'd change it to a sprawl. However, I'm still doing the base Kenpo tech. If someone were to look at the tech., they'd still see Kenpo. Small, subtle adjustments is all I'm doing.

I've got lots of posts on here about how to defeate a wrestler with pure WC/WT which was the origional post. The BJJ got added by other folks that were missing the point of the post. That believe that WC/WT won't work against a wrestler or grappler. I so strongly disagree, I'm seriously re-considering my origional withdrawl from competition.

Hmm...so you're saying that nobody from outside WC can comment? Seeing that WC is not a grappling art, I suggested BJJ, as well as other grappling arts, so that the WC person can better understand how a grappler operates. Of course, thats met with resistance by those, you being one of them, who seem to think that its a complete ultimate art. As I've said, all arts are complete to a point. However, it would not hurt to look at an art that specializes in something, to see how they work. BJJ has not hurt my Kenpo and neither has Arnis.

Let me use another RL example that you may understand. You can go to a doctor with a problem. You can tell them all about it, and they might be able to suggest something. Of course, there're those times when they send you to a specialist...someone who specializes in a certain area, to continue to help with your problem. I'd be willing to bet that you would tell your doc. that he should be able to help you, that you don't NEED a specialist, because he is already a doc and should be able to solve any problem. Sorry, it doesn't always work that way.

Good luck with your training.

 

[Si-Je]

Okay guys, I get hyper and am not clear sometimes. BJJ has been beaten in the ring several times, it is totally possible to defeat a takedown with striking concepts, that's my main point. It is possible to use 100% wing chun to defend against a wrestler/BJJ whatever strickly ground fighting style. It has been done numerous times.
Yes, people have been tapped out.

To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.
BUT..
That larger opponent has other limbs, moving, punching, kicking, elbowing limbs to deal with while you concentrate all your time and effort on one joint. See?

I started adapting WT/WC concepts to the JJJ I used to know so well, just to find out it stopped being JJJ technique. WT/WC has joint locks too, but they are done very differently. They are usually done with only one hand or arm on the joint, with no "lock out" on the arm or wrist. This leaves your other hand free to deflect or strike as needed. This doesn't force the joint lock, and if the lock is lost you continue chainpunching or flow into whatever is needed to continue to attack the opponent.
So, what I thought was using JJJ with WC/WT concepts BECAME wing chun.
To commit your entire body into a joint lock and force the submission does require more strength than is needed to execute a joint lock. When I wrap my whole body around a guys arm, thus clinging to him while he picks me up off the ground and slams me on my back, neck or head is just not effecient! And it's painful, and to me silly. When I can aquire joint locks in other fashions that are not so harmful and dangerous to my small frame.

No, I don't like BJJ, we all know that, because I see it as
largely and grossly inefficient. It takes too long to get into position for most of those techniques, too much effort, too much energy spent on one movement, too much commitment of the entire body for too long on one set technique.

I cringe to imagine a small woman doing these techniques on a large man on the concrete in the street, with nails, glass, wood, trash, and oil, etc... The road rash and body slames required to fall to the ground and execute these techniques I see as a horrible danger to anyone trying to use this in street or self-defense situations.
Like i've said: can you do these techniques between two parked cars in the parking lot, on a staircase, in a narrow hallway, in a bus isle, INSIDE a parked car, in your bathroom (especially if it's as tiny as mine! lol!) Wing Chun is designed for these situations specifically and these are your battle grounds in the real world, not some octogon, not some cage. If one feels they NEED a "ground game" for the cage, great, use BJJ (I still wouldn't but that's me. It seems specially designed for the ring and does well when you have lots of room to do it) But, think carefully and question if these techniques can be used in a real situation.
Just your preference in training, depending on what your training for. I'm always in a mindset of realistic self-defense and am not interested in sport fighting. But, that is me. And my opinions on practical technique IS heavilly biased due to my critical anyalyzing of technique that I see won't work in these situations.
So, how is BJJ going to help your WC/WT in this light?
I hope this clarifies more of the mindset I am coming from, and why I get so "passionate" about self-defense and BJJ.

 

[Si-Je]

I was woundering if you guys had experience or advice on how to defeat a wrestler or grappler with using strickly Wing Chun techniques. Some people think you have to study BJJ or Greco Wrestling to be able to defeat a wrestler. But I was wounder if there are any Wing Chun Purist who know how to defeat a western wrestler using strickly Wing Chun tecnhiques and principals?

This is the entire point of this thread. Right here. Not asking how you would "mesh" other grappling styles in your WT/WC, but how would you use strickly Wing Chun against a wrestler.
I have been answering this question over and over, just to have people keep adding in that you've GOT to have a grappling style "meshed" into your art.
I disagree.
Why people kept bringing up the BJJ and other grappling styles as a necesisity, I don't know. Maybe they just can't see what a WC/WT "purist" sees, that it is NOT needed. If you feel you need it, fine. I don't need it, thank you very much.
And Hubbie who trained with Master Gima in Okinawia in Kenpo Karate would be very interested to know that BJJ is needed to supplement that art for a wrestler by someone who seems to have rank in the art. And very disapointed.
This post, I've not let him see yet (good thing he's at work lol!) I'd get an earfull and probably some more anti-grappling training! lol! (on second thought, yeah, I'm gonna show that post to him right away! thanks for the fuel for the "fire" so's I can get more spontaneous training! lol!)

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well excelent points....Very interesting. Well let me asked you How can you use a strickly fighting Art with out transitioning to a Wrestling art. How can you defeat a wrestler with out using ground fighting or learning ground fighting?

Sorry, you're wrong. That is YOUR assumption. You would be surprised as to how easy I can go from a Kenpo tech., into a lock from Arnis, to a takedown and finish with a sub. from BJJ. The 3 blend very well together. You seem to think that its hard to transition from one to the next...it isn't.

Additionally, there are a number of takedown defenses in Kenpo. I like to test those defenses against a grappler...someone who really knows how to shoot in, not do some half assed attempt. By understanding how the grappler operates, I can adapt my Kenpo tech. to that. I'm not changing my tech., I'm simply making an adjustment, keeping the Kenpo principles, and completing the move. Now, you may be thinking, "Well, sure you're changing your Kenpo." No, I'm not, and the difference is this....if I was going to change the Kenpo tech., I'd change it to a sprawl. However, I'm still doing the base Kenpo tech. If someone were to look at the tech., they'd still see Kenpo. Small, subtle adjustments is all I'm doing.



Hmm...so you're saying that nobody from outside WC can comment? Seeing that WC is not a grappling art, I suggested BJJ, as well as other grappling arts, so that the WC person can better understand how a grappler operates. Of course, thats met with resistance by those, you being one of them, who seem to think that its a complete ultimate art. As I've said, all arts are complete to a point. However, it would not hurt to look at an art that specializes in something, to see how they work. BJJ has not hurt my Kenpo and neither has Arnis.

Let me use another RL example that you may understand. You can go to a doctor with a problem. You can tell them all about it, and they might be able to suggest something. Of course, there're those times when they send you to a specialist...someone who specializes in a certain area, to continue to help with your problem. I'd be willing to bet that you would tell your doc. that he should be able to help you, that you don't NEED a specialist, because he is already a doc and should be able to solve any problem. Sorry, it doesn't always work that way.

Good luck with your training.

 

[MJS]

Well excelent points....Very interesting. Well let me asked you How can you use a strickly fighting Art with out transitioning to a Wrestling art. How can you defeat a wrestler with out using ground fighting or learning ground fighting?

This is the reason I crosstrain. I train BJJ so I can better understand how they operate. Many people in Kenpo are sharing the same thoughts with Sije...they think that they can use Kenpo, in its pure form, without using any grappling concepts. I take certain techs. from Kenpo and test them against a grapplers attack. Will my pure Kenpo tech. work against someone who grapples, someone who knows how to shoot? I adapt the BJJ defense into the Kenpo defense. The tech is still Kenpo. Again, if it wasn't, I'd simply use the sprawl, which is the common defense against a shoot. I'm trying to use the Kenpo defense. However, as I said, I will make subtle adjustments.

If my defense fails, and I do land on the ground, I will still feel confortable. That is why I train BJJ. So one minute I'm in Kenpo mode, the next I land on my rear, and switch to BJJ.

Don't misunderstand. I don't like to advocate rolling on the ground, trying to look for a submission. I want to get back up. BJJ will provide me with the escape and the means to get back up.

The same applies to my Arnis training. There are knife drills in that art, that are not in Kenpo, so when I'm working my Kenpo knife defense, I'm more aware of the 'what if'. If I need to transition to Arnis, its really a very simple process.

 

[GBlues]

This is the entire point of this thread. Right here. Not asking how you would "mesh" other grappling styles in your WT/WC, but how would you use strickly Wing Chun against a wrestler.
I have been answering this question over and over, just to have people keep adding in that you've GOT to have a grappling style "meshed" into your art.
I disagree.
Why people kept bringing up the BJJ and other grappling styles as a necesisity, I don't know. Maybe they just can't see what a WC/WT "purist" sees, that it is NOT needed. If you feel you need it, fine. I don't need it, thank you very much.
And Hubbie who trained with Master Gima in Okinawia in Kenpo Karate would be very interested to know that BJJ is needed to supplement that art for a wrestler by someone who seems to have rank in the art. And very disapointed.
This post, I've not let him see yet (good thing he's at work lol!) I'd get an earfull and probably some more anti-grappling training! lol! (on second thought, yeah, I'm gonna show that post to him right away! thanks for the fuel for the "fire" so's I can get more spontaneous training! lol!)

Hmm.....you absolutely do not need to take bjj or jjj to learn how to defeat a grappler or wrestler. But I would think it would be beneficial to practice your art against them. Most arts have a specialty, something they are known for or very good at. Of course when you think of these various arts there are things they are not known for. As an example Kenpo is not known for being a grappling art. It's known for it's very fast linear and circular, lightning fast hand strikes. Kenpo Karate is one of the faster striking arts, just the way it was designed. It's designed to end it. However, when I think of WC I think of very fast chain punching, trapping hands, elbows, knees etc... Close quarters fighting art. What both of these arts are not known for, ( at least from everything I have heard or read about, or even trained some in), is grappling. There just not known for it. Now they may have, elements but I woud imagine it would be more for stopping your opponent from ever taking you to the ground. I know my experience with Kenpo is don't let him take you to the ground. If he does, get out of that situation as fast as possible.

Every art is designed for something different. Cultural experiences, or personal experiences of the individual. So if the bulk of a founders experience tells them that they will always, or almost always end the fight standing, why mess with the ground. I'm gonna end it before it ever gets there. Someone else's experience shows them they have gone to the ground 99% percent of the time, so they will develop a system of fighting that deals with that aspect only. He says, "I'm not gonna' focus on strikes because all of my experience says it's going to the ground so I'm taking it there first."

Striking and Grappling are two completely different ideologies. In those ideologies you have a whole slew of arts that are but aren't the two. Example Aikido, is not known for it's strikes. Most people will tell you that it doesn't even have strikes, but it does. Yet it is not a striking art, it is a grappling art. There strikes are distractory so that they can get the throw they want more easily. When you focus on only one thing, your going to get very good at that one thing, regardless of what it is. The downside, is that your are missing out on some other things. I think that is why most people in the martial arts world push cross-training so much. Because they themselves have focused on one thing so much that they see the holes and the gaps in there own training. Beyond that since the advent of the UFC every tom, dick,and harry thinks he knows how to grapple. The same with when the Bruce Lee movies became popular, everybody thought they knew how to kick, and punch, and block. But you don't until you take some kind of training. So when you focus on striking only, that is what you know, striking. When you only focus on grappling that is what you know, grappling, and so on and so forth. It will leave gaps but, you may be good enough to adapt if you train with other practioners from other styles. It will leave you more well rounded.

Finally there are lots of videos on you tube of fights taking place in the street where both participants are rolling around on the ground. SO it is possible you could end up there, and be in that element. but since you train with other practitioners you probably have tested what you are trained in and know what you are capable of defending against and what your not. So.....enjoy the spontanous classes

LOL!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent but long...wow..Did you know Bruce Lee learn some Judo informallly from one the guys he made an instructer of Jun Fan Gung Fu?

Also in some of movies you will Bruce going to the ground as well...

But the thing Si-Je is saying...it takes a while for WC to be engrained in your mind...If you already a style that you are comfortable that you have practice for some years...then cross training one or two new styles will not be so bad....

I personally see her point...Because right now I am cross training Tai Chi and Bagua...Its very difficult...but this is just the beginning...It will take me awhile to catch up everyone else because I am taking everything in all at once...But I have a foundation in WC. So if I get in trouble I can fall back on the WC....Thats the benefit...Of having the WC engrained...So what is saying first get atleast three years of WC or BJJ under you belt first...Then cross train a new style with it...

If you passion is WC then go all out...study one...

If your passion is BJJ stick with that...

Its like learning a foriegn language...Can you learn Chinese and Arabic together. Are would you find yourself kinda blending the two different languages from time to time...Would it be easier to learn Arabic first for three to seven years then move on to adding Chinese.

So in other words one should practice one art an get a foundation then add another art later?

Do you think its easier to learn two arts at the same time or learn one first and add another later....

Hmm.....you absolutely do not need to take bjj or jjj to learn how to defeat a grappler or wrestler. But I would think it would be beneficial to practice your art against them. Most arts have a specialty, something they are known for or very good at. Of course when you think of these various arts there are things they are not known for. As an example Kenpo is not known for being a grappling art. It's known for it's very fast linear and circular, lightning fast hand strikes. Kenpo Karate is one of the faster striking arts, just the way it was designed. It's designed to end it. However, when I think of WC I think of very fast chain punching, trapping hands, elbows, knees etc... Close quarters fighting art. What both of these arts are not known for, ( at least from everything I have heard or read about, or even trained some in), is grappling. There just not known for it. Now they may have, elements but I woud imagine it would be more for stopping your opponent from ever taking you to the ground. I know my experience with Kenpo is don't let him take you to the ground. If he does, get out of that situation as fast as possible.

Every art is designed for something different. Cultural experiences, or personal experiences of the individual. So if the bulk of a founders experience tells them that they will always, or almost always end the fight standing, why mess with the ground. I'm gonna end it before it ever gets there. Someone else's experience shows them they have gone to the ground 99% percent of the time, so they will develop a system of fighting that deals with that aspect only. He says, "I'm not gonna' focus on strikes because all of my experience says it's going to the ground so I'm taking it there first."

Striking and Grappling are two completely different ideologies. In those ideologies you have a whole slew of arts that are but aren't the two. Example Aikido, is not known for it's strikes. Most people will tell you that it doesn't even have strikes, but it does. Yet it is not a striking art, it is a grappling art. There strikes are distractory so that they can get the throw they want more easily. When you focus on only one thing, your going to get very good at that one thing, regardless of what it is. The downside, is that your are missing out on some other things. I think that is why most people in the martial arts world push cross-training so much. Because they themselves have focused on one thing so much that they see the holes and the gaps in there own training. Beyond that since the advent of the UFC every tom, dick,and harry thinks he knows how to grapple. The same with when the Bruce Lee movies became popular, everybody thought they knew how to kick, and punch, and block. But you don't until you take some kind of training. So when you focus on striking only, that is what you know, striking. When you only focus on grappling that is what you know, grappling, and so on and so forth. It will leave gaps but, you may be good enough to adapt if you train with other practioners from other styles. It will leave you more well rounded.

Finally there are lots of videos on you tube of fights taking place in the street where both participants are rolling around on the ground. SO it is possible you could end up there, and be in that element. but since you train with other practitioners you probably have tested what you are trained in and know what you are capable of defending against and what your not. So.....enjoy the spontanous classes

LOL!

 

[GBlues]

Excellent but long...wow..Did you know Bruce Lee learn some Judo informallly from one the guys he made an instructer of Jun Fan Gung Fu?

Also in some of movies you will Bruce going to the ground as well...

But the thing Si-Je is saying...it takes a while for WC to be engrained in your mind...If you already a style that you are comfortable that you have practice for some years...then cross training one or two new styles will not be so bad....

I personally see her point...Because right now I am cross training Tai Chi and Bagua...Its very difficult...but this is just the beginning...It will take me awhile to catch up everyone else because I am taking everything in all at once...But I have a foundation in WC. So if I get in trouble I can fall back on the WC....Thats the benefit...Of having the WC engrained...So what is saying first get atleast three years of WC or BJJ under you belt first...Then cross train a new style with it...

If you passion is WC then go all out...study one...

If your passion is BJJ stick with that...

Its like learning a foriegn language...Can you learn Chinese and Arabic together. Are would you find yourself kinda blending the two different languages from time to time...Would it be easier to learn Arabic first for three to seven years then move on to adding Chinese.

So in other words one should practice one art an get a foundation then add another art later?

Do you think its easier to learn two arts at the same time or learn one first and add another later....

Learn one then add if you feel that you need to later. I wouldn't do two at the same time, until I had a firm foundation in one art. NO matter what that are is. LOL! I had a girlfriend once and her dad taught 5 different styles. Actually he taught one, it was the five different styles combined into one. If you could get your black belt in 5 years in each art, that's 25 years. However, if you learn 5 at the same time it will take 25 years to get proficient at even one of them. I personally think you should get really good at one, first. 5 years is a long time, you take two at the same time it will increase your learning time. Because you can not concentrate on the one. You now have to do two, so your looking at 10 years to become proficient at the both. Where as if you do one, and then concentrate on the second, and it compliments your first art, it actually should take you less time to become proficient with the 2nd, and 3rd, and 4th, and on, and on. Just my opinion.

 

[MJS]

Hmm.....you absolutely do not need to take bjj or jjj to learn how to defeat a grappler or wrestler. But I would think it would be beneficial to practice your art against them. Most arts have a specialty, something they are known for or very good at. Of course when you think of these various arts there are things they are not known for. As an example Kenpo is not known for being a grappling art. It's known for it's very fast linear and circular, lightning fast hand strikes. Kenpo Karate is one of the faster striking arts, just the way it was designed. It's designed to end it. However, when I think of WC I think of very fast chain punching, trapping hands, elbows, knees etc... Close quarters fighting art. What both of these arts are not known for, ( at least from everything I have heard or read about, or even trained some in), is grappling. There just not known for it. Now they may have, elements but I woud imagine it would be more for stopping your opponent from ever taking you to the ground. I know my experience with Kenpo is don't let him take you to the ground. If he does, get out of that situation as fast as possible.

Every art is designed for something different. Cultural experiences, or personal experiences of the individual. So if the bulk of a founders experience tells them that they will always, or almost always end the fight standing, why mess with the ground. I'm gonna end it before it ever gets there. Someone else's experience shows them they have gone to the ground 99% percent of the time, so they will develop a system of fighting that deals with that aspect only. He says, "I'm not gonna' focus on strikes because all of my experience says it's going to the ground so I'm taking it there first."

Striking and Grappling are two completely different ideologies. In those ideologies you have a whole slew of arts that are but aren't the two. Example Aikido, is not known for it's strikes. Most people will tell you that it doesn't even have strikes, but it does. Yet it is not a striking art, it is a grappling art. There strikes are distractory so that they can get the throw they want more easily. When you focus on only one thing, your going to get very good at that one thing, regardless of what it is. The downside, is that your are missing out on some other things. I think that is why most people in the martial arts world push cross-training so much. Because they themselves have focused on one thing so much that they see the holes and the gaps in there own training. Beyond that since the advent of the UFC every tom, dick,and harry thinks he knows how to grapple. The same with when the Bruce Lee movies became popular, everybody thought they knew how to kick, and punch, and block. But you don't until you take some kind of training. So when you focus on striking only, that is what you know, striking. When you only focus on grappling that is what you know, grappling, and so on and so forth. It will leave gaps but, you may be good enough to adapt if you train with other practioners from other styles. It will leave you more well rounded.

Finally there are lots of videos on you tube of fights taking place in the street where both participants are rolling around on the ground. SO it is possible you could end up there, and be in that element. but since you train with other practitioners you probably have tested what you are trained in and know what you are capable of defending against and what your not. So.....enjoy the spontanous classes

LOL!

Very well said. When I first joined this forum, I was always running around in the Kenpo section, saying how that was the one thing that Kenpo lacked. Man did I take heat for that. LOL. I wasn't seeing it. I had many back and forth debates, people telling me that it was MY Kenpo that was lacking, not Kenpo as a whole. So, after talking with people, I went to experiment. I had someone get me in the mount and I tried to apply Kenpo. Sure, there were a few techs. where I could apply ideas, but what I was looking for was what you'd typically see in BJJ.

Kenpo ground fighting is the dirty fighting that we hear about. Dont look for those submissions, but just fight dirty to get back to your feet. So, while I keep that line of thinking, I use the BJJ to aid the Kenpo. Use the BJJ during the initial escape and finish with Kenpo on the ground.

So, maybe it is MY Kenpo thats lacking. Perhaps one of the Kenpo Seniors would have been able to just use Kenpo. However, for me, instead of trying to apply a standup tech. to the ground, why not use a proven method of escape, and then finish with your base art? Seems to work for me.

Like I said, the arts that I train in all blend together very well. The 3 have made me a more well rounded martial artist.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Great point excellent I believe thats what we are all saying!


But can you share with us what are some of best tactics for defeating a wrestler while sticking to a standing art with out combining ground fighting...in other words...how do you defeat a wrestler while not playing his game?

Learn one then add if you feel that you need to later. I wouldn't do two at the same time, until I had a firm foundation in one art. NO matter what that are is. LOL! I had a girlfriend once and her dad taught 5 different styles. Actually he taught one, it was the five different styles combined into one. If you could get your black belt in 5 years in each art, that's 25 years. However, if you learn 5 at the same time it will take 25 years to get proficient at even one of them. I personally think you should get really good at one, first. 5 years is a long time, you take two at the same time it will increase your learning time. Because you can not concentrate on the one. You now have to do two, so your looking at 10 years to become proficient at the both. Where as if you do one, and then concentrate on the second, and it compliments your first art, it actually should take you less time to become proficient with the 2nd, and 3rd, and 4th, and on, and on. Just my opinion.

 

[Steve]

Great point excellent I believe thats what we are all saying!


But can you share with us what are some of best tactics for defeating a wrestler while sticking to a standing art with out combining ground fighting...in other words...how do you defeat a wrestler while not playing his game?

Learn some version of a sprawl. Mind your distancing so that you can maintain space between yourself and the wrestler. Avoid giving him grips, and learn how to break those grips, just in case. While a well timed knee to the head could stop a double leg takedown, it's as likely to miss as not. However, a good sprawl and SEVERAL knees to the head can really do wonders. Or, a good sprawl, drive the head down while you stand back up and create distance. Chuck Liddell is great at this.

Learn enough grappling so that if you ARE taken to the ground you can improve your position or create enough space to stand back up. Whether that's "anti-grappling" or whatever, you will need to avoid being defenseless on the ground.

Finally, as others have said, regardless of the techniques you're training, do so against competent grapplers with resistance, so that you can develop the timing and facility to execute the techniques when you need them.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay I am familiar with using the Sprawl. I had to use this against police officer friend of mines who wanted to see if he could take me down. I use the sprawl and place my weight on his neck an head then push his face down to ground while dropping my weight at the same time...Then I rolled around his body Went for python head lock on his neck an use my weight to prevent him from getting up easily...if he attempted to get up I would kick the back of his supporting knee to get him back down...Still holding the Headlock until he submitted or tapped.


But as for your statement on using the Knee while someone is shooting for your legs...This could be disadvantageous. Especially if the combatant is bigger in weight than you. For one he has momentum coming at you. So he has the power of his weight along with the momentum generated from his legs. Your in a stactic posistion lifting up one knee to make a chanceful contact with his chin to stop his momentum...


While your essentially on one leg...you may hit him but your power in that knee may not be forceful enough to break off his momentum which he has already committed to. Laws of Phyiscs state he is already in motion and being carried by inertia along with his legs propelling his entire body forward. So even if the shock or pain stops his legs from shooting his body is still in forward motion and his arms are ready for the clinch of your legs..or in this case one leg which he grabs on his way to ground an pulls out from under you while your knee makes contact with his face...Which would do doubt lessen the impact of your knee since he destroyed your foundation which would would have given you leverage and added power in lifting the knee. I would suggest if your fast enough to side step while grabbing a outside arm an warding it off or pulling it pass you, outside of your gates...Use his momentum that he has already committed to, inorder to throw or redirect his energy pass you gaining you the advantage to out flank him or drive behind him and take him out or too the ground. Now This is something I have experiences against a slower opponent so it will not work on everyone. But if your faster than the guy going for the shoot I would suggest this tactic...

But the average MMA guy is not going to just shoot for your legs...he is going to go for your arms an use leverage to bring you down to ground like in judo. Or he may shoot for your waist or use your shoulders to bring you down...Many different scenarios to look out for...It depends on skill level of the wrestler. Some Grapplers try to flank you pick you up from the back throw or slam you down to ground then gain a dominant posistion on your back.
Like this: or This

From here you may try to roll using your hips or legs as leverage and also use the strength in shoulders to roll. If the person gains a dominant posistion over you from the front(On top of your chest), then the best thing to do is umpa or raise up your hips off the ground and back when you can to create space for you work Pak Sau Chainpunch and Grappling on the ground. If you can get a hand free utilize chain punches or short elbow strikes when your opponent is close to you.


But WC is about feeling so the main thing you want to do is gain access to his arm bridge. Try to gain a dominant posistion an lock his arms out so he can not get momentum to shoot nor can he accurately lock out to your arm for a take down. If he tries to redirect to lower level then thats where upper cuts come in at...Wing Chun does have upper cuts and hooks. I love to grab the back of head an attempt to push their chin into their chest when I see the combatant drop lower than my shoulder height.

But your advice is sound...But if one uses Wing Chun he wants to be in trapping distance against a grappler...Maybe using kicks agaisnt shins and knees when he is far away...But when close he wants to use trapping and striking together. When the head moves the body follows. If he goes to ground he wants to relax and work his sensitivity to where can strike and roll over to dominant posistion or switch posistion in sprawl to lock out his opponent by a joint lock..Chin Na to he reaches his pain thresh hold and submits or chokeout from behind where the combatant can not use his arms are leverage to fight him off!

Now Ways to continue the fight from a striking point of view would be total flow of techniques. That means you should not be static but constantly moving from foot work to hand motions. You should be attacking upper and lower gates contiously With kicks and punches. Attack From what ever distance the grappler is at. If he is in grappling range. The best thing to do while your both standing is to break through his bridge with snapping back fist. Stun him while kicking the shin with edge of you foot or stomping the shin or knee. Then while kicking the shin commence chain punch to face. If he draws back out of range bridge the gap by another kick to shin or inside of the knee. Hopefully he goes down on one knee. If he goes down on one knee circle around to opposite side chain punch and hook the face hard and then go back to chain punches alternating between fast short hooks and chain punches. If he reaches over or bridges with the closes hand. Grab that hand turn it away from your body while contiously punching with your free hand to face. This will give you advantageous posistion while standing.

To Remain in on the outside with out using inside fighting strategies change up the tactics. If he makes it back to his feet utilize front kicks to his thighs to stop his progress, Use instep kick to side of his knees or thight or shin when in close. When at a distance use some long boxing or hung gar punches mixed up with the Wing Chun punches. Along with long kicks. Round house kick the Sides of shins or calf muscles. Front kick his Dan Tien or belly button or stomach. Stomp kick his knee or shin and Blade kick the shins. Use Stop kicks and Stop punches interchangeable with Chain punches. If he tries to gain contact by bridging give him no bridge...destroy the bridge. Pak Da constantly to destroy his bridge. Jut Da to remove his foundation and strike.


Tactics for outside fighting:
When he gets close Fast front kick to his sternum or diaphram.

Contious chainpunches to the nose while alternating round house kicks to the sides of legs(shins, knees and thigh).

When he comes close Pak Sau and utilize a fast Snapping back fist to stun him followed by stepping chain punch and front kicks.

Use Combo Strikes to his Chin Nose and Jaw. Like Chain punch,Hook,Chainpunch upper cut, Chain punch hook, or Slight hook Torque punch slight hooks twice upper cut chain punch.

Constant kicking the Knees and Shins when moves forward.

Constant kicking diaphram when you move forward.

Contious chain punches or combos while kicking the shins or knees.

Stop kicks followed by a combos or chain punchs.

Stop hits followed by the above.

Use endurance and strength and punishing techniques to wear oppoent out.

Punish his arms by banging the with your bone in your fore arm.

Use Aikido or Chin na when the opponent gives you a bridge to give you advantageous striking or leg take down manuever.


But I am no Wrestler or Grappler...So shows what I know...I only know what has worked utilizing Wing Chun against few fighters. Not all does it work against. Many of these tactics I describe concerning ground fighting doesn't work against other Skilled Wing Chun fighters I have encountered...But if you have the phyiscal conditioning meaning strength training and stamina and endurance training it may work for you!

But just a little word of caution I don't advise lifting up the leg against someone who is trying to capture your balance and uproot you or throw you. To Do so would be suicide. Just because he is shooting for your legs doesn't mean he doesn't know how to move the knee or kick out of his path while he is forward motion to turn your body over to side. Very bad posistion to be. You leave yourself open to all sorts of techniques!

Learn some version of a sprawl. Mind your distancing so that you can maintain space between yourself and the wrestler. Avoid giving him grips, and learn how to break those grips, just in case. While a well timed knee to the head could stop a double leg takedown, it's as likely to miss as not. However, a good sprawl and SEVERAL knees to the head can really do wonders. Or, a good sprawl, drive the head down while you stand back up and create distance. Chuck Liddell is great at this.

Learn enough grappling so that if you ARE taken to the ground you can improve your position or create enough space to stand back up. Whether that's "anti-grappling" or whatever, you will need to avoid being defenseless on the ground.

Finally, as others have said, regardless of the techniques you're training, do so against competent grapplers with resistance, so that you can develop the timing and facility to execute the techniques when you need them.

 

[GBlues]

In my opinion if you get into situations;
Like this: or This as a straight striker your screwed. Not necassarily but most likely. The reason being you've trained mostly striking, not wrestling or grappling. So the reality is you can't get into these situations. You have to beat the guy before he can get you here. Couple of things to consider about this also, is are we sparring, or going balls to the wall self-defense?

That being said, in a self-defense situation, you know when your going to have to fight, before the fight happens. You just do. Like I've always been told, "If you know your going to fight, don't wait, get it on!". This meaning that a pre-emptive attack is better than a reactionary response. Couple of other things is to observe his stance, his movement, should give you some idea of his intention, whether it be to pummel you to death with strikes or to just take you to the ground and either break something or try to pummel you to death while he sits on your chest.

Now I've found that there are some things you can do that will, increase your odds. I wear a baseball cap pretty much everywhere I go. It's a good tool. People don't realize it but it is. You can snap that thing off and fling it into somebody's face pretty quick! Being a WC guy like you are this, may or may not depending on your adversaries skill level, give you enough time to clear the gap and get into the trapping range that you want to be in and begin to pummel him with strikes. He won't be thinking about shooting or taking you down anymore, he'll be more concerned with trying to get away from you.

Good footwork, is a must to keep yourself at a distance. You don't want to be so close that he can get that shoot, or get a hand on you. You really have to wait for the right moment in time, to do anything. Everything is timing, anyways I wish I could finish my post but I gots to go, so, I'll try and expand upon this a little bit later.
:asian:

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent response I love it...I can not find to much fault with it...


But one thing I have to share...going to ground is not the end for WC...
My Sifu also knows the ground fighting of Gung Fu too. As a matter of fact prior to Wing Chun I studied a small portion of Judo and Aikido. So I would use those in the Wing Chun. But Wing Chun uses Chin Na...Which I found strange...because the Vary moves In Chin Na are also in Aikido...An Chin Na can be applied on the ground. It wouldn't be wise to assume all Wing Chun artist are afraid to be on the ground....

Another thing I was speaking of Sparring not fighting!

Of course in a fight you are to be relentless and show no mercy. What I mean is you don't hold back

Tactics for street fight
Punch the Adams Apple.
Squeeze the Adams Apple.
Knife hand the Adams Apple.
Phoenix fist the Adams Apple.
Finger Jab the Adams Apple.
Strike the Eyes with Fingers,thumbs or Phoenix Eye Fist.
Kick the gonads and groin.
Punch the Gonads and groin.
Finger jab under the arm pits.
Phoenix eye fist the temples.
Finger Jab or Phoenix Eye Fist the soft part of neck behind the Ears.
Kick the Pelvic bone. Kick in the knee backwards and scrabe down the shins with the foot.

Stab throat and eyes with metal fountain pen!
Stab Sternum or Diaphram repeately with metal fountain pen.
Attack soft tissue behind the ear with metal pen.
Attack under the arms with pen.
Punch back of neck consistently
Break the nose
split the lip

etc etc...These are some techniques for fighting with...

But I like your advice concerning the hat...As for ground fighting many WC fighters spar both standing and on the ground. My Sidai who loved to wrestle as has moved away so I havent had any skilled wrestlers to spar with in about three years so I am out of practice actually. But WC does have ground fighting. The Ground is not somewhere most people who fight in my area do. The Average Joe Blow around here will attack you like Mohammed Ali. They don't desire to be tied on the ground with no one. Most of the cats around here advoid the ground at all cost....So your pretty much going to be a duke out.

As for take downs...WC has them...I do like the shoot for the legs. But WC doesn't run in for your legs and tackles you the same ways as shoot fighting does. WC will grab the back of your knees and try to pull them in and lift them up in the air to cause you to land on the back of your head. This move is found in Bil Jee. But this gives me time to attack you when you get up off the ground before you have time to set and find your center of gravity.

But a warning to you. Don't believe all WC fighters don't have a ground a game.

My Sidai Was a High School Wrestler
My Muay Thai Friends loves to wrestle
My Police officer friend is always trying shoot for my legs
I took Aikido and Judo for a very short time

So We have both outside Grappling experience and Wing Chun Ground fighting experience. Don't be confuse...Ground fighting is not something new to WC...Its just alot of the time people Don't train the ground fighting because of lack of sparring partners to train it with...Most Strikers Hate ground fighting. Which is understandable...Because depending on your area of census. The majority of your attackers will be more prone to boxing. I where I grew up...When we were kids we would Wrestle all day long like in Junior high...But in High School Trying to wrestle in a fight would get your **** kicked...Especially if they had friends!


True High School Story:
One little story. I remember one time in High School I was a Senior. I was small for most kids...I was only about 5'8 and weighed about 145lbs wet. Any way I went to a county school But thanks to gangster movies everyone one in my county thought they were bloods,crips or Folk Nation or Gangster Disicples. Anyway there was the made up imaginary crip set called Third floor. There were about seven of these guys. They tried to punk three of us one day. Some of the guys were bigger than us. But they were underclassmen. But because of their size they thought they were tough. My Sidai instigated a fight with the guys. My other friend Rodney was very muscular and he was a high school wrestler too. So the fight broke out My Sidai hitting people with Wing Chun Strikes and kicks and using Wrestling moves to slam guys on the hard stone floors. An Rodney was punching and kicking people across the hall. It look like something in the movies...Eventually the Made of Crip set gave up their attack...We went are separate ways. But it just so happen I was walking on Third floor three days later...An these guys who called themselves third floor crips where there...It was like ten of them...I was like three by my self I could handle but ten I don't know So I am getting ready to start punching and kicking differnet people to get around them to get down the hall to my class. Anyway...They were like how about big boy fight him...Big boy was some big ole taller fat kid...He tried boxing first. He was punching at me...Boy so fat I could block his strikes with hand because he was slow as heck. But I let one in so I could Jut Sau...That means jerking hand...I grab his hand pulled him in an started striking the back of his head...Now honestly he tried to run around in a circle. I guess he thought he make me let go of his Arm and stop hitting him. But I kept hitting him in the head until he stop running around in a silly circle. Then backed up. Getting ready for the kicks. He came in like he was going to punch again so I am ready to block. He got between trapping and grappling range then reach out an grabbed me with both hands. So In my mind he is about to throw me on my back on the ground. I wrapped my legs around his body. An my arms around his neck and started squeezing. He wanted to drop down on the ground with me...But if he let go of his hands I was going to kick my legs back out. But he realize he wasn't in a good posistion because even if he flew down to hard floor he would more than likely hurt his knuckles and fingers. So He placed me down lightly on the ground an was light dude let go. I let go he ran backwards I kipped up off the ground ran towards him and gave him double palm stike in his chest and stomach and senting him tumbelling back into his Clique. After that I said are we finish. He retorted to his Gang"That guy is crazy." Now I left out the other comical stuff I said an then while I was hitting him...But it was definitely a show to see. But this is high school So I am sharing that even though people train WC or Muay Thai never Assume they never go to ground. An if they do go to ground chances are they meditate on ways to get up quickly from the ground or dominate when put to dirt.

Just my little two cents...Please respne again!



Favorite Aikido move I like to apply while sparring or fighting!

In my opinion if you get into situations;
Like this: or This as a straight striker your screwed. Not necassarily but most likely. The reason being you've trained mostly striking, not wrestling or grappling. So the reality is you can't get into these situations. You have to beat the guy before he can get you here. Couple of things to consider about this also, is are we sparring, or going balls to the wall self-defense?

That being said, in a self-defense situation, you know when your going to have to fight, before the fight happens. You just do. Like I've always been told, "If you know your going to fight, don't wait, get it on!". This meaning that a pre-emptive attack is better than a reactionary response. Couple of other things is to observe his stance, his movement, should give you some idea of his intention, whether it be to pummel you to death with strikes or to just take you to the ground and either break something or try to pummel you to death while he sits on your chest.

Now I've found that there are some things you can do that will, increase your odds. I wear a baseball cap pretty much everywhere I go. It's a good tool. People don't realize it but it is. You can snap that thing off and fling it into somebody's face pretty quick! Being a WC guy like you are this, may or may not depending on your adversaries skill level, give you enough time to clear the gap and get into the trapping range that you want to be in and begin to pummel him with strikes. He won't be thinking about shooting or taking you down anymore, he'll be more concerned with trying to get away from you.

Good footwork, is a must to keep yourself at a distance. You don't want to be so close that he can get that shoot, or get a hand on you. You really have to wait for the right moment in time, to do anything. Everything is timing, anyways I wish I could finish my post but I gots to go, so, I'll try and expand upon this a little bit later.
:asian:

 

[GBlues]

HaHa!!! That was a good story. Hmm....I didn't realize there was apparently so much grappling in WC!? It's not what you here about the art very much, like I said in my previous post, the majority of what I hear is, mostly about the verasity of the trapping. That's cool. In another thread I touched upon the average bar room streetfighter/brawler. And one of the things about those guys is some of them, may have been very accomplished highschool wrestlers at one point. The cool thing about grappling I think is that it doesn't take quite so much maintenance to stay proficient at it. I mean yeah you still have to practice and stuff, but it seems to stay with you longer, with less constant practice. Anyways, I don't assume much of anything anymore. Especially when it comes to fighting.

Sounds to me like you would feel pretty comfortable on the ground anyways. From your previous post. I guess the question is then how in depth is the WC training for ground fighting? If your asking how to keep from going to the ground with straight strikes I really can't think of anything to add, from my other posts. However since you've studied Aikido, that could very well play in your favor also. I don't know how many throws WC has, but it might be beneficial to even let the grappler place a hand on you and then go for the, (if I spell this right, if not forgive me, I'm going to sound it out), Akodiguiesh???, ( you know the wrist lock throw) and flop him on his head! Or even steal a technique from Kenpo! THe lapel grab, when he tries to grab your shirt, say with his right hand, reach your right hand across trapping his left. Bring your left up and over, striking downward on his arm right in the crook of the elbow. This will cause him to come forward more, take that same left, and shoot a knife hand chop to the throat, or backfist to the nose, or even finger jab to the eyes. Should by enough time to start that classic WC chain punching, or very likely leave you the opening for his groin.

Or even this one, and I've been thinking about this one for a long time. Have never tested it yet, and don't know about the feesability of this one, but it holds my imagination quite a bit. Royce Gracie used to do this little kick for the knee to set up the shoot. I seen a few guys avoid this for awhile, and then they go for the leg block or the low block with there hands and then pretty much it was over he was shooting. He'd usually get them right away after like 1st, 2nd, or third shot on this. I've been doing some thinking about this particular method of setup. The guys that avoided this method the most were those that would simply back away from the attack. Royce was always using this to gauge his distance also for the shoot. If he was close enough to hit you, he's close enough to get you. Here's my thinking on this one. As they do this set-up kick, they are setting a pattern a rythm also. As you shuffle step back they're getting used to the fact that, that's what your going to do. I kick, he shuffles back. Now he'll either change tactics right away, or he'll do it a 4th time maybe, or even a you could do this on the 2nd or third attempt, depends on the timing. But one time, when he raises that leg to kick, you shoot yourself, dropping to a knee, grabbing his kicking leg. Yeah I know, crazy, but it might work. It'll leave your head and chest exposed to attack, cause with your free hand you've got to be striking the groin at the same time. If you can actually get THIS to work up to this point you'd be golden. Cause' your getting an injury right away, that will cause him to bend over. Now at this point in my mind I see it going one of two ways. Either a quick stand smashing the top of your head into his face, as he bends over,( double the damage

), or standing up sweeping his supporting lag out, from under him dropping him on his back, with a quick step through his legs, to stomp on this adams apple, throat etc.... and then go home. Probably if you could pull this off and were very good at it, take all of about 10-20 secs. to end the confrontation. Now if it doesn't go good, I see VERY BAD THINGS IN STORE FOR THE GUY THAT TRIED IT!

Also IF you got this to work, and depending on your size and how deep your able to get inside his comfort zone, he might smash his face on your head no matter what when he bends over from the groin punch. You guys on here will HAVE to tell me what you think of that one. Cause' I foresee that one would be very hard to pull off against somebody that is as skilled as Royce or somebody that just even has say 2-3 exp, behind him.:asian:

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Hey GBlues...Now your talking...In a second we have to return back to how to defeat a grappler with out going to the ground...But you are making some good points...


The main thing about ground fighting is you just have to do...its exactly like Chi Sau only not standing up

Wing Chun has over 70 Chin Na techniques which includes arm locks and throws.

But not all Wing Chun lineages really go into detail...Now we did because our Sifu was a fighter. We didn't go in depth on ground fighting like MMA schools. But we got some minor practice among one another. Sifu would speak of turning off force...Parrying strikes to face....

As for Japanese terminology...I dont remember hardly any terminology...But my Aikido instructure had us do mostly take down drills the entire class after we practice stretching, Rolls and Throwing.

Some of the drills are very applicable. But you mention one of my old judo take downs...Where the guy grabs you by your shirt and you grab his shirt or arm and you can flip him over your back...Another move was you roll backwards kick you foot in his chest an when you get flat on your back kick him in the air over you...Nasty technique...Those were my favorites...Some of Aikido Techniques take too long an are too Slow so I try to miminize down to what works the majority of the time...


But you mention someone skilled like Gracie...I don't know too many people who can honestly say they are skilled enough to beat Gracie in Jiujitsu. Needless to say not to many strikers think they can beat Mike Tyson in striking...Even with kicks...


But as for the weapons of Wing Chun Man...he is never limited...

Oh I hear all the time Wing Chun doesn't kick above the Stomach or Waist...Wing Chun doesn't usually kick above the Waist...But just because it doesn't usually. What would happen if the wing chun man has he hands behind his back...He would probably kick your face off if he could. Ha Ha...My Sihing says all the time he doesn't fight with high kicks...But that doesn't mean he doesn't practice them...We practice defense drills with one another. My Sihing is very strecth out an kicks very high...Possibly over my head if he wants to. But in a fight usually he is going aim below your hips...Thats to prevent you from grabbing his feet with your hands. To reach his feet you have to bend down. lol...So I tell people all the time Wing Chun has principals but just because it has principals in fighting you can bend the rules...Like Wing Chun is mostly linear. But if you look at Bil Gee form you will see right and left hooks. Also Wing Chun has an upper cut. Some Wing Chun people actually are lazy...They practice everything...So some Wing Chun people can not kick high...can not throw circle attacks.Can not ground fight. Some Wing Chun people have terrible flexibility. An when they get fifty they will understand then why their body is in such bad shape.

People think Wing Chun fighters don't have stamina...But whats up with jumping rope and running...Wing Chun is not a lazy man's art as it is becoming in states...Its for fighters. I have heard one guy says he doesn't even practice kicks...He has videos showing his wing chun...but he is very lazy...he doesnt practice kicks...he doesnt hit the wall bag or punching bag with force...He doesn't work to increase his strength and punching power Etc etc...Now of course he could just be talking an actually lying to me because he doesn't want me know he is not that lazy...or he is being truthful...There is so much more to WC than practicing Forms,two man Drills and Chi Sau all day. Most people think thats all there is...No thats just the beginning...

But also did you know the Chain punch can be altered to be many different types of punching? Not just all straight chain punches...you can alternate strikes. Like a Crane does...

But the tactics you meantion for the shoot sound like a pretty good one...

I have suggestion for you...

Get a buddy...Buy some head gear with a face shield or cage.

Practice light contact sparring an trying to shoot in on him after every three strikes you throw...He is to use a kick,knee, elbow or upper cut stop you. Now this way you get used to seeing how is body structure changes...feel the change and possibly block or parry the blow or evade the kick. This will also help you with your timing. Because he knows your going to shoot. But you time it just right to where his attack is void...Now if he tries to kick you or knee you practice deflecting the kick or moving it out the way as you shoot for the legs...move the knee on through and shoot for the side of the hips and slam him down!

This could be a great skill builder...It allows you to work on shooting...It allows your friend to work on striking so you can't shoot.

Tell me what you think?

HaHa!!! That was a good story. Hmm....I didn't realize there was apparently so much grappling in WC!? It's not what you here about the art very much, like I said in my previous post, the majority of what I hear is, mostly about the verasity of the trapping. That's cool. In another thread I touched upon the average bar room streetfighter/brawler. And one of the things about those guys is some of them, may have been very accomplished highschool wrestlers at one point. The cool thing about grappling I think is that it doesn't take quite so much maintenance to stay proficient at it. I mean yeah you still have to practice and stuff, but it seems to stay with you longer, with less constant practice. Anyways, I don't assume much of anything anymore. Especially when it comes to fighting.

Sounds to me like you would feel pretty comfortable on the ground anyways. From your previous post. I guess the question is then how in depth is the WC training for ground fighting? If your asking how to keep from going to the ground with straight strikes I really can't think of anything to add, from my other posts. However since you've studied Aikido, that could very well play in your favor also. I don't know how many throws WC has, but it might be beneficial to even let the grappler place a hand on you and then go for the, (if I spell this right, if not forgive me, I'm going to sound it out), Akodiguiesh???, ( you know the wrist lock throw) and flop him on his head! Or even steal a technique from Kenpo! THe lapel grab, when he tries to grab your shirt, say with his right hand, reach your right hand across trapping his left. Bring your left up and over, striking downward on his arm right in the crook of the elbow. This will cause him to come forward more, take that same left, and shoot a knife hand chop to the throat, or backfist to the nose, or even finger jab to the eyes. Should by enough time to start that classic WC chain punching, or very likely leave you the opening for his groin.

Or even this one, and I've been thinking about this one for a long time. Have never tested it yet, and don't know about the feesability of this one, but it holds my imagination quite a bit. Royce Gracie used to do this little kick for the knee to set up the shoot. I seen a few guys avoid this for awhile, and then they go for the leg block or the low block with there hands and then pretty much it was over he was shooting. He'd usually get them right away after like 1st, 2nd, or third shot on this. I've been doing some thinking about this particular method of setup. The guys that avoided this method the most were those that would simply back away from the attack. Royce was always using this to gauge his distance also for the shoot. If he was close enough to hit you, he's close enough to get you. Here's my thinking on this one. As they do this set-up kick, they are setting a pattern a rythm also. As you shuffle step back they're getting used to the fact that, that's what your going to do. I kick, he shuffles back. Now he'll either change tactics right away, or he'll do it a 4th time maybe, or even a you could do this on the 2nd or third attempt, depends on the timing. But one time, when he raises that leg to kick, you shoot yourself, dropping to a knee, grabbing his kicking leg. Yeah I know, crazy, but it might work. It'll leave your head and chest exposed to attack, cause with your free hand you've got to be striking the groin at the same time. If you can actually get THIS to work up to this point you'd be golden. Cause' your getting an injury right away, that will cause him to bend over. Now at this point in my mind I see it going one of two ways. Either a quick stand smashing the top of your head into his face, as he bends over,( double the damage

), or standing up sweeping his supporting lag out, from under him dropping him on his back, with a quick step through his legs, to stomp on this adams apple, throat etc.... and then go home. Probably if you could pull this off and were very good at it, take all of about 10-20 secs. to end the confrontation. Now if it doesn't go good, I see VERY BAD THINGS IN STORE FOR THE GUY THAT TRIED IT!

Also IF you got this to work, and depending on your size and how deep your able to get inside his comfort zone, he might smash his face on your head no matter what when he bends over from the groin punch. You guys on here will HAVE to tell me what you think of that one. Cause' I foresee that one would be very hard to pull off against somebody that is as skilled as Royce or somebody that just even has say 2-3 exp, behind him.:asian: