How to be Self-taught?

[marvelous65]

No, it's an honest question. I am curious to know what combat principles you believe you will learn by working on a bob and wrestling with a friend in the back yard. What are these principles, and how do feel this exercise will help you understand them.

I am poking holes in your arguments, but quite honestly that is what you need right now. It's not a simple attempt to be witty at your expense.

Give me an argument that isn't fraught with glaring problems, and I won't be able to poke holes in it.

Ok...well I should have a decent chance at learning principles of hand to hand combat. It seems very simple to say so but really that's the idea. I want to develop a rudimentary understanding of the principles of hand to hand combat. I believe that I can do this without much instruction from a martial arts expert. And I believe that by developing this learning, without instruction, I'll also understand more deeply the process of skill acquisition.

 

[marvelous65]

Hello Marvelous65.
I hope you have the patience for one more response because mine may be different.
Your interest is in self learning. Everyone has given their opinions but let me give my input on this. Chess is a logical endeavor and is learned in an intellectual process. As westerners we primarily use the left hemisphere of our brains when learning. This is the logical side. Asian cultures however historically have been more intuitive learner's and use the right side. My first suggestion would be for you to do some research on left VS right brain learning.
I think what many people are trying to express to you subconsciously is that martial arts are not learned as an intellectual process. They are learned as an intuitive almost like osmosis. In the fist stages of martial arts it is about memory but then after that it becomes intuitive. I would also suggest looking up on line the learning process used by Asian musicians. It will be similar to martial arts.
One challenge to learning from any other method other than a teacher is that martial arts is about the human body and biomechanics. Even doing something as simple as a punch involves more than just extending your arm. There are 640 skeletal muscles in the body. Some of these muscles have to remain in a state of relaxation while others need to be contracted and yet others need to be held in a state of static flexation. There is no book or video that could possibly entail so many details. Martial arts takes a simple movement and breaks it down to a very fine prescribed manner. It is really about mastery of the human body. The only way to learn this is by feel and by extensive instruction.

You people don't seem to understand. There is no need to know how all 640 stupid muscles in the human body work unless you are attempting to compete at a level in martial arts that I am not. I'm just passively interested in the fighting arts as they relate to strategy. I think that by working out on a BoB for 25 minutes almost everyday, I'm doing a hell of a lot better to serve the purposes I am attempting than I would most any other activity that strikes my interest. I've taken martial arts classes as an adult. And I feel that in the last two months of training, I've learned more which will directly effect my skills in hand to hand combat than I did taking lessons. Often, I find, martial arts lessons are too systematized. If you are attempting to attain high levels of expertise in a fighting art this systemic process will aid your attempt. On the other hand, if your just trying to be slightly better equipped in hand to hand combat a punching bag and a little rough housing should suffice.

 

[Andrew Green]

You people don't seem to understand.

How to self teach:

Step 1 - Ask experts for their professional opinion.
Step 2 - Ignore their opinion, tell them they are wrong.
Step 3 - ???
Step 4 - Profit

That seems to be what you are going with... You got a lot of experience here giving you advice, and you are ignoring all of it because you know better. If you can't see how that might be a bad idea you're not going to get far.

You can learn to hit a bag, on your own, play around with friends. But make no mistake, you are not doing martial arts. Have fun, and hopefully you get a good work out at least.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok...well I should have a decent chance at learning principles of hand to hand combat. It seems very simple to say so but really that's the idea. I want to develop a rudimentary understanding of the principles of hand to hand combat. I believe that I can do this without much instruction from a martial arts expert. And I believe that by developing this learning, without instruction, I'll also understand more deeply the process of skill acquisition.

Do you have a sense of what those principles might be? At best I think you might experiment on a technical level, but principles are something else. And you won't really grasp that stuff without good instruction. It just won't happen. Even with instruction, most people have a lot of difficulty and never really "get" it. Everyone thinks they know how to throw a punch. Most people don't do it well, at all.

You made a comment in an earlier post, that you don't know what it is that you don't know. That is something you ought to embrace whole heartedly. You won't get this by yourself. You will simply be copying movement, with minimal benefit, it any at all.

 

[marvelous65]

How to self teach:

Step 1 - Ask experts for their professional opinion.
Step 2 - Ignore their opinion, tell them they are wrong.
Step 3 - ???
Step 4 - Profit

That seems to be what you are going with... You got a lot of experience here giving you advice, and you are ignoring all of it because you know better. If you can't see how that might be a bad idea you're not going to get far.

You can learn to hit a bag, on your own, play around with friends. But make no mistake, you are not doing martial arts. Have fun, and hopefully you get a good work out at least.

Hey, a good work out indeed. Thanks.

 

[Flying Crane]

You people don't seem to understand. There is no need to know how all 640 stupid muscles in the human body work unless you are attempting to compete at a level in martial arts that I am not. I'm just passively interested in the fighting arts as they relate to strategy. I think that by working out on a BoB for 25 minutes almost everyday, I'm doing a hell of a lot better to serve the purposes I am attempting than I would most any other activity that strikes my interest. I've taken martial arts classes as an adult. And I feel that in the last two months of training, I've learned more which will directly effect my skills in hand to hand combat than I did taking lessons. Often, I find, martial arts lessons are too systematized. If you are attempting to attain high levels of expertise in a fighting art this systemic process will aid your attempt. On the other hand, if your just trying to be slightly better equipped in hand to hand combat a punching bag and a little rough housing should suffice.

Then why are you here, asking for input? We have given what you have asked. And you are frustrated and angry. Why are you here?

 

[marvelous65]

Do you have a sense of what those principles might be? At best I think you might experiment on a technical level, but principles are something else. And you won't really grasp that stuff without good instruction. It just won't happen. Even with instruction, most people have a lot of difficulty and never really "get" it. Everyone thinks they know how to throw a punch. Most people don't do it well, at all.

You made a comment in an earlier post, that you don't know what it is that you don't know. That is something you ought to embrace whole heartedly. You won't get this by yourself. You will simply be copying movement, with minimal benefit, it any at all.

This debate got very deep into whether or not it was a good idea to be self-taught martial arts. You guys don't think so. I get that. What I asked for originally was some advice on how to train without formal instruction - not whether it was a good idea. Now, I totally get the idea of having instruction as being vital; I worked with a writing mentor for a while and I would not have made it nearly as far as a writer had I not; but I'm not attempting excellence in the fighting arts. What I want is to cultivate a practice which includes martial arts training that is not for martial arts as an end. Between my writing practice which is what is most important to my discipline, and my job, and my love for the game of chess I only have so much time for martial arts training. Not enough to spend hundreds of dollars on classes that will not make me better unless I put in a lot of work.

 

[marvelous65]

Then why are you here, asking for input? We have given what you have asked. And you are frustrated and angry. Why are you here?

I'm not angry I'm invigorated by good debate.

 

[hoshin1600]

Here's something that interests me. How do you see your training having anything to do with strategy. As a back round note I have read just about every well known published work on strategy from sun tzu and all 7 Chinese classics to Vegetius and Du Pic to Clausewits and Fredrick the great. I've read Musashi and Takuan ...the list is extensive but I cannot understand the link your trying to make punching a Bob to strategy.

 

[Flying Crane]

This debate got very deep into whether or not it was a good idea to be self-taught martial arts. You guys don't think so. I get that. What I asked for originally was some advice on how to train without formal instruction - not whether it was a good idea. Now, I totally get the idea of having instruction as being vital; I worked with a writing mentor for a while and I would not have made it nearly as far as a writer had I not; but I'm not attempting excellence in the fighting arts. What I want is to cultivate a practice which includes martial arts training that is not for martial arts as an end. Between my writing practice which is what is most important to my discipline, and my job, and my love for the game of chess I only have so much time for martial arts training. Not enough to spend hundreds of dollars on classes that will not make me better unless I put in a lot of work.

So... You don't really have any sense of what these principles may be? Just some vague notion that practicing martial-inspired mimicry will somehow improve your chess and your writing because of something you read in Musashi's book? Is that really what it boils down to?

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm not angry I'm invigorated by good debate.

All I see is someone who is angry and frustrated because he is not getting the answer he wanted.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here's something that interests me. How do you see your training having anything to do with strategy. As a back round note I have read just about every well known published work on strategy from sun tzu and all 7 Chinese classics to Vegetius and Du Pic to Clausewits and Fredrick the great. I've read Musashi and Takuan ...the list is extensive but I cannot understand the link your trying to make punching a Bob to strategy.

Yeah, I've been trying to get to the bottom of that little chestnut too.

 

[marvelous65]

Here's something that interests me. How do you see your training having anything to do with strategy. As a back round note I have read just about every well known published work on strategy from sun tzu and all 7 Chinese classics to Vegetius and Du Pic to Clausewits and Fredrick the great. I've read Musashi and Takuan ...the list is extensive but I cannot understand the link your trying to make punching a Bob to strategy.

Ok...so I think you may be confusing strategy with tactics. Because strategy is how you prepare for and enter into a fight or other sort of conflict. A tactic is the means with which you fight or resolve the conflict. Training is strategy for being more equipped to handle yourself in combat; that is the essence of military science; but you must already know that because you read Clauswits.

 

[marvelous65]

Oh by the way guys - here's a look at razing

 

[jks9199]

I'm never going to have to get in a real fight. I don't go out to bars and I live in a safe rural town. That is all. All of you are attempting to deter me from being a self-taught martial artist and I want to thank you for this. It may not be effective to learn on your own; it might not result in the quality of learning that you'd get from an instructor - I get this. All I want is to acquiesce an experiment of training in the martial arts into a more sound intellectual practice. Maybe I'm misguided. I don't care. Maybe I'll never learn how to defend myself properly. That is not necessary. A little bit of exercise training on my BoB and some rough housing with some friends will carry with it all the rewards I need. So thanks to everyone for their concern regarding my intention to teach myself martial arts but NO THANKS.

Perhaps you need to understand that many of us have spent many, many hours on martial arts training and practice. They've given you serious, honest advice based on your original question, "how do I teach myself martial arts" or "how do I develop solo practice as an 'educational experiment'?" And your response has been, essentially, that you don't care to hear them, and you're going to do what you want anyway.

Totally your right to do so.

As has been said -- teaching yourself chess from a book is quite doable. You can easily study many of the greatest games by the greatest masters once you learn the notation. You can walk through the games, work on seeing how they thought and what led them to make the moves they did. Becoming a published writer? Honestly, as many published authors have openly admitted, that's as much luck as skill or talent. There are lots of things you can certainly teach yourself.

And you can certainly mess around and do something, especially with a little background. But what you can actually teach yourself in that regard is limited. And, to really achieve much, you'll have to commit to a lot of painful errors, unless you simply want to do martial arts-like movements as interpreted and inspired by your reading and videos.

Go for it. Have fun. But don't look to a bunch of serious martial artists for much support.

 

[hoshin1600]

I am not confused. I was asking a sincere question based on your posts. You said your training consisted at the moment of 25 min of Bob work. I am interested in how you feel your training has an impact on your interest in strategy.

 

[marvelous65]

I am not confused. I was asking a sincere question based on your posts. You said your training consisted at the moment of 25 min of Bob work. I am interested in how you feel your training has an impact on your interest in strategy.

Training is relevant to fighting arts. Fighting arts incorporate strategy. Therefore having an understanding of one will enhance study of the other. It's called cross pollinating and is a "tactic" of many autodidacts.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh by the way guys - here's a look at razing

That was stupid as a box of rocks.

 

[Flying Crane]

Training is relevant to fighting arts. Fighting arts incorporate strategy. Therefore having an understanding of one will enhance study of the other. It's called cross pollinating and is a "tactic" of many autodidacts.

You do realize that this is...silly? How does beating on a bob, without instruction, teach you any kind of strategy? You don't absorb any deeper knowledge by just making something up out of whole cloth.

 

[marvelous65]

Perhaps you need to understand that many of us have spent many, many hours on martial arts training and practice. They've given you serious, honest advice based on your original question, "how do I teach myself martial arts" or "how do I develop solo practice as an 'educational experiment'?" And your response has been, essentially, that you don't care to hear them, and you're going to do what you want anyway.

Totally your right to do so.

As has been said -- teaching yourself chess from a book is quite doable. You can easily study many of the greatest games by the greatest masters once you learn the notation. You can walk through the games, work on seeing how they thought and what led them to make the moves they did. Becoming a published writer? Honestly, as many published authors have openly admitted, that's as much luck as skill or talent. There are lots of things you can certainly teach yourself.

And you can certainly mess around and do something, especially with a little background. But what you can actually teach yourself in that regard is limited. And, to really achieve much, you'll have to commit to a lot of painful errors, unless you simply want to do martial arts-like movements as interpreted and inspired by your reading and videos.

Go for it. Have fun. But don't look to a bunch of serious martial artists for much support.

You say my response to all your comments has been that I don't want to hear them. I believe that is a contradiction from what has happened here today. I've rooted out considered debate throughout the day; I have considered many responses and responded to them consistently - almost every time leading to more debate. So I will not likely run out to follow anyone's directions but few of you have really stopped to consider how might a person teach themselves martial arts as a supplement to a already disciplined intellectual practice.