How to be Self-taught?

[marvelous65]

In your post #6, you give us an explanation of why you wish to self teach yourself martial arts. May I suggest you need to self teach yourself for at least three years. Then go as many tournaments as you can survive, to see if it really worked. Getting into tournaments should seem the exact proper thing to do since you already have tested yourself in chess and writing (I have to believe you got/get a lot of rejections slips on your way to success?). If you want to save bruises, at the end of the three years, go to a TKD school and inform the instructor you are ready to test for BB, encouraging him to let you by promising to pay twice the testing fee in advance. See how that works out.

The above is a little facetious, but not much. If you throw a punch, how will you know your wrist is straight, both vertically and horizontally? At what point will you learn how it "feels" when your wrist is straight? Do you know what can happen if you throw and connect with a powerful punch and your wrist isn't straight? At what point in self teaching yourself will you learn how to move successfully into a punch, moving to the side and grabbing it to successfully twist it, or will you just walk into the first punch thrown at you? your examples of learning chess and writing just simply don't apply to learning fighting of any kind, especially martial arts. Sorry if that isn't what you want to hear, but you did ask. None of us are trying to put you down personally, but simply to answer your question in a meaningful way. But don't your think it ironic that you ask your question and three belted MA give you the same answer, which you, with no apparent belting simply don't accept?

One last thing, razing? I haven't heard that term either (again, belted MA don't seem to know it). It must be a term invented by the Sammy Franco you mention. Nor is it unique to him. Other martial arts, including the Hapkido I am belted in, use gouges and pressure points including lethal point strikes, sudden neck twists, taking a knife away and slicing your opponent long and deep, etc. And what other type of attack would there be than criminal, unless you are in a tourney/sparring match?

I fully recognize that getting instruction would benefit my study of martial arts. And before I go further I want to thank you for your response to my query. You said that I should train for three years independently and then go for a black belt - fine. What I want you to understand is that I have no need for a black belt. I don't care about having such skill in fighting. There is no use for such skill in fighting outside of the dojo or inner city. Where I live it is likely that I could never have to square off with anyone ever in my life. All I want is to go about training in a slightly more intelligent manner than just pounding away at a heavy bag or doing lots of bench presses. So please, all of you, dispense with this gobbledygook about how I'll never learn the proper stances or what have you.

What I've found in learning to play chess and in learning to write is that I've developed a bit of expertise in skill acquisition. Now, I am writing a column on self-education for which I pull from my experiences learning chess and writing. Improving at martial arts is only - and I repeat - only to learn better how to learn. I'll never be a black belt. I will not ever have the skill to compete in a tournament. That is fine. What all of you seem to be misunderstanding is that I already am fine with my current ability to defend myself. Learning martial arts is just a intellectual detour.

Maybe all of you who are so molded by your martial arts schooling should attempt to learn a skill or two independently. For one, you would be able to apply good sound principles of discipline from you martial arts to whatever skill you chose to develop. But furthermore, I think in the long run your study of martial discipline would also gain in the process. Thanks.

 

[tshadowchaser]

as has been said how will you know if what you do is correct or if you are actually learning without anyone to tell you

 

[Flying Crane]

Those other skills you mention, chess and writing, are largely intellectual. Yes, that kind of thing can be learned thru good resources such as books and video.

Martial arts are intellectual, but ultimately need to translate into physical. That's the difference, and that's where you need instruction to make sure you get the details correct, and you need classmates to work with, under knowledgeable supervision, to develope real workable skills. Otherwise you are just winging it.

If you learn chess from a book, you don't risk blowing your knee out during practice if you misunderstand a technique. And if you submit a piece of writing for publication you don't risk getting severely beaten or killed if your writing is junk.

Your background inTKD and wrestling may be an asset or may be a liability in this endeavor. It really depends on a lot of things. And if you intend to write about the experience, it is already clouded by that previous background. Any claim of success would be credited to that previous background and not to the self-teaching process.

You came here asking for advice from those who are experienced and knowledgeable on the topic. We are giving you our best advice. I suggest you heed that advice even if it's not what you wanted to hear. Otherwise, go thru with the process and then write an honest assessment, including all of the failures inherent in the very concept. But then again, how would you even know?

Here's the thing. You wouldn't tell someone that their fighting prowess would not develop from say doing 50 push-ups everyday.

Yes, I would. Doing the push-ups will make you stronger, but how helpful that would will be for your actual martial skills is unknown. Raw strength can be helpful and useful, but doesn't automatically assume it will improve your martial skill.

Ok. So my point in studying martial arts should be taken in a similar context. I'm not attempting to be highly skilled. I can already hold my own in a back yard brawl. So why wouldn't training on a BoB and doing regular wrestling with a friend in a park be somewhat beneficial. My question wasn't whether being self-taught was a good idea; my question was if any of you knew how to study martial arts independently. It seems none of you do.

Doing what you propose might improve your capabilities in some way, but it's not training martial arts. When I was a kid, my friends and I would wrestle in the back yard. We didn't have instruction or training, we just wrestled. Is that kind of experience useful? Potentially yes, possibly no. But either way it's not training martial arts. Now, when you try to introduce instruction via video only, you change the whole picture. Now you are trying to train in martial arts, and that mode of instruction is junk.

And to your final comment in this post, plenty of us know how to train independently. We practice outside of class, we work on our skills, we take ownership of our training and development. But we do so in conjunction with proper instruction.

 

[Flying Crane]

When you write your article, will you come back and give us a link to it, so we can make comments on it?

 

[tshadowchaser]

You can do punching drills, kicking drills, blocking drills, etc. but that is not learning a martial art in and of itself. Martial arts and the practice of the arts includes the passing on of knowledge and the correction of mistakes and without instruction these things are not going to happen.
May I ask what are you writing this col um for: a newspaper, a college class, etc? What do you intend to put in this paper and how do you plan to back up your findings?

 

[marvelous65]

When you write your article, will you come back and give us a link to it, so we can make comments on it?

The column I write is a weekly column and can be found at vermontviews.org under column heading 4our. The theme for this magazine is quality of life. I believe independent study to be uniquely important to quality of life; and martial arts uniquely a mystery within areas of study. I've been studying a lot of educational philosophy and cognitive psychology for the purposes of writing this column with this frequency. But I thought developing skill in something as esoteric as martial arts for background work to my writings would give my essays substance. I may write an essay that directly relates to learning martial arts, but I may not. We'll see.

 

[Andrew Green]

Now, I am writing a column on self-education for which I pull from my experiences learning chess and writing. Improving at martial arts is only - and I repeat - only to learn better how to learn.

You're missing the point though. Martial Arts is not a solo activity. Writing is, Chess can be. You can play against a computer, or against real people online.

Try learning how to play chess when all you have is the white pieces, not just lacking a live player to play against. But your board only has the white pieces. Just you, your board, the white pieces and some books. You can't really learn the game that way, and you can't learn martial arts without another person.

If you want to learn a skill on your own go for it, self-teaching is a great way to gain skills. But there are some things that it just doesn't work in. Martial Arts is one of those things, you need a opponent, otherwise its just cardio-kickboxing.

 

[Jenna]

When you write your article, will you come back and give us a link to it, so we can make comments on it?

The column I write is a weekly column and can be found at vermontviews.org under column heading 4our. The theme for this magazine is quality of life. I believe independent study to be uniquely important to quality of life; and martial arts uniquely a mystery within areas of study. I've been studying a lot of educational philosophy and cognitive psychology for the purposes of writing this column with this frequency. But I thought developing skill in something as esoteric as martial arts for background work to my writings would give my essays substance. I may write an essay that directly relates to learning martial arts, but I may not. We'll see.

Please do not feel put upon! I think what people here are doing in their way is trying indirectly to prevent you from injury.. If you are an autodidact in chess and you get beat by an opponent schooled by Kasparov, it is no loss to you besides pride.. poker then you lose cash.. any thing physical though then you must expect injury.. you teach your self free running or climbing then you stand to lose your mobility or even your life.. it is exactly similar for martial arts.. it is YOUR SAFETY that is at risk I would speak on nobodys behalf and but I imagine respondees here would try to prevent you from a kind of internet / literature martial naivety is all Good luck, Jx

 

[marvelous65]

You're missing the point though. Martial Arts is not a solo activity. Writing is, Chess can be. You can play against a computer, or against real people online.

Try learning how to play chess when all you have is the white pieces, not just lacking a live player to play against. But your board only has the white pieces. Just you, your board, the white pieces and some books. You can't really learn the game that way, and you can't learn martial arts without another person.

If you want to learn a skill on your own go for it, self-teaching is a great way to gain skills. But there are some things that it just doesn't work in. Martial Arts is one of those things, you need a opponent, otherwise its just cardio-kickboxing.

I've stated this already in this thread but obviously you didn't catch it. I do not intend on learning solo. I will seek out having a sparring/wrestling partner. I do not, however, see the need to get instruction from at a dojo. And because you're probably going to come at me with a bunch of crap about how much I need to get feedback from someone who knows martial arts to learn to fight properly, let me say, I DON'T CARE. Learning independently is for the sake of learning how to learn itself. If I wanted to be a black belt I'd go to a dojo. If I really thought I needed to be able to defend myself better I would go to a dojo. All I'm doing in attempting to independently train in the martial arts is improving my skill acquisition expertise. Period.

 

[Instructor]

You won't be acquiring skill though, that's our point. You will be acquiring nonsense for no reason whatsoever. It's your time to waste though so, whatever.

 

[marvelous65]

Please do not feel put upon! I think what people here are doing in their way is trying indirectly to prevent you from injury.. If you are an autodidact in chess and you get beat by an opponent schooled by Kasparov, it is no loss to you besides pride.. poker then you lose cash.. any thing physical though then you must expect injury.. you teach your self free running or climbing then you stand to lose your mobility or even your life.. it is exactly similar for martial arts.. it is YOUR SAFETY that is at risk I would speak on nobodys behalf and but I imagine respondees here would try to prevent you from a kind of internet / literature martial naivety is all Good luck, Jx

I'm never going to have to get in a real fight. I don't go out to bars and I live in a safe rural town. That is all. All of you are attempting to deter me from being a self-taught martial artist and I want to thank you for this. It may not be effective to learn on your own; it might not result in the quality of learning that you'd get from an instructor - I get this. All I want is to acquiesce an experiment of training in the martial arts into a more sound intellectual practice. Maybe I'm misguided. I don't care. Maybe I'll never learn how to defend myself properly. That is not necessary. A little bit of exercise training on my BoB and some rough housing with some friends will carry with it all the rewards I need. So thanks to everyone for their concern regarding my intention to teach myself martial arts but NO THANKS.

 

[marvelous65]

You won't be acquiring skill though, that's our point. You will be acquiring nonsense for no reason whatsoever. It's your time to waste though so, whatever.

Is maintaining your balance when you perform a side kick requiring of skill. Yes. And yes I am developing this skill everyday. So I guess you don't know what your talking about.

 

[marvelous65]

By the way, I've thoroughly enjoyed this banter with all of you. I will, in the future, attempt to come up with many more misguided ideas about the martial arts to bounce off you guys.

 

[Instructor]

Is maintaining your balance when you perform a side kick requiring of skill. Yes. And yes I am developing this skill everyday. So I guess you don't know what your talking about.

The cumulative experience of the people that have taken time out of their day to respond to you is staggering. They are what you might call, subject matter experts.

 

[K-man]

I think there are a couple of issues.

Firstly, with any learning method (self or otherwise) there has to be a method of assessment to verify the teaching process. You said you didn't want a belt and you said you didn't want to compete in a tournament. These are two methods of validating your training. You say you live in a safe environment and don't need self defence skills, with which I disagree totally as SD skills are totally separate to learning a martial art. You say you are learning 'razing' and that's cool. You can't even test that on your partner, in a sense. So the question becomes, how do you know that what you are learning has validity?

So let's go to the next step and say that with you limited background you start learning from the DVDs. What you are essentially doing is trying to replicate movement as without a partner there is nothing else. You can't do that on a Bob and you can't do that on a bag. Most martial arts involve grappling. You sense your opponent's movement and respond accordingly. The movement required to unbalance someone is ever so subtle. Unless someone shows you you won't know it's there, without a partner you won't learn it.

Now we have threads running into pages debating whether or not you need 'fighting' in your training. We all have a different interpretation of fighting but what we mostly agree on is that you need some way of testing your training. You can't do that against an untrained person unless you want to try street fighting, and that may not have a happy ending.

I think you have an interesting concept. Back in the 60s I bought a book, "Teach yourself Karate". I studied it diligently for a while but eventually gave it away. Martial art, like sex, is not a solo occupation.

 

[marvelous65]

I think there are a couple of issues.

Firstly, with any learning method (self or otherwise) there has to be a method of assessment to verify the teaching process. You said you didn't want a belt and you said you didn't want to compete in a tournament. These are two methods of validating your training. You say you live in a safe environment and don't need self defence skills, with which I disagree totally as SD skills are totally separate to learning a martial art. You say you are learning 'razing' and that's cool. You can't even test that on your partner, in a sense. So the question becomes, how do you know that what you are learning has validity?

So let's go to the next step and say that with you limited background you start learning from the DVDs. What you are essentially doing is trying to replicate movement as without a partner there is nothing else. You can't do that on a Bob and you can't do that on a bag. Most martial arts involve grappling. You sense your opponent's movement and respond accordingly. The movement required to unbalance someone is ever so subtle. Unless someone shows you you won't know it's there, without a partner you won't learn it.

Now we have threads running into pages debating whether or not you need 'fighting' in your training. We all have a different interpretation of fighting but what we mostly agree on is that you need some way of testing your training. You can't do that against an untrained person unless you want to try street fighting, and that may not have a happy ending.

I think you have an interesting concept. Back in the 60s I bought a book, "Teach yourself Karate". I studied it diligently for a while but eventually gave it away. Martial art, like sex, is not a solo occupation.

I've addressed this point in this thread again and again; I am not attempting to learn martial arts without a partner. Your point is irrelevant. Otherwise, you say that self-defense are totally separate to learning a martial art; they may have diverging points but also overlap. In other words, if you learn how to train in the martial arts you will improve your ability to defend yourself.

 

[Andrew Green]

I've addressed this point in this thread again and again; I am not attempting to learn martial arts without a partner. Your point is irrelevant. Otherwise, you say that self-defense are totally separate to learning a martial art; they may have diverging points but also overlap. In other words, if you learn how to train in the martial arts you will improve your ability to defend yourself.

I want you to just consider that everyone in this thread has told you this is a bad idea. Add partners in and it could go from bad to worse if someone gets injured because you don't know what you are doing. There are several instructors and people with far more experience then you saying this. I have, and I am sure many others here have, seen the results of self training... it's usually a disaster that did the person more harm then good.

Now I'm all for self-learning, but take into consideration you are attempting to begin this self-learning experience in a field you know nothing about by ignoring and disagreeing with the advice of every expert you have heard from. That alone should be enough to tell you something about this plan in this field is not a good one.

 

[K-man]

I've addressed this point in this thread again and again; I am not attempting to learn martial arts without a partner. Your point is irrelevant. Otherwise, you say that self-defense are totally separate to learning a martial art; they may have diverging points but also overlap. In other words, if you learn how to train in the martial arts you will improve your ability to defend yourself.

Sorry to have wasted your time. Bye!

 

[Instructor]

Sorry to have wasted your time. Bye!

I think it is time for me to say good bye as well.

 

[oftheherd1]

I've stated this already in this thread but obviously you didn't catch it. I do not intend on learning solo. I will seek out having a sparring/wrestling partner. I do not, however, see the need to get instruction from at a dojo. And because you're probably going to come at me with a bunch of crap about how much I need to get feedback from someone who knows martial arts to learn to fight properly, let me say, I DON'T CARE. Learning independently is for the sake of learning how to learn itself. If I wanted to be a black belt I'd go to a dojo. If I really thought I needed to be able to defend myself better I would go to a dojo. All I'm doing in attempting to independently train in the martial arts is improving my skill acquisition expertise. Period.

Do you think that might be like the blind leading the blind?

I've stated this already in this thread but obviously you didn't catch it. I do not intend on learning solo. I will seek out having a sparring/wrestling partner. I do not, however, see the need to get instruction from at a dojo. And because you're probably going to come at me with a bunch of crap about how much I need to get feedback from someone who knows martial arts to learn to fight properly, let me say, I DON'T CARE. Learning independently is for the sake of learning how to learn itself. If I wanted to be a black belt I'd go to a dojo. If I really thought I needed to be able to defend myself better I would go to a dojo. All I'm doing in attempting to independently train in the martial arts is improving my skill acquisition expertise. Period.

Perhaps I understand a little better (or not). But you don't need martial arts training for that. Any difficult subject should do quite well for you. May I suggest learning Koine Greek?

But I am curious how you see learning at this point in your life. From my point of view and small learning, all life learns. Sometimes the learning is passed on as instinct, sometimes the learning must be done again by each new organism of a particular type. I think even the discernment that one needs to learn is probably passed on, but it may be instinctual as well. Granted there are skills one can acquire to improve one's ability to learn; such as concentration, memorization, the understanding that there is a void in one's knowledge, discernment of nuances of a subject matter, motor skills, and probably more.

But I wonder if you are really trying to learn how to learn, o\r simply trying to gain knowledge?

Is maintaining your balance when you perform a side kick requiring of skill. Yes. And yes I am developing this skill everyday. So I guess you don't know what your talking about.

That is very rude, to talk to a teacher like that. He does know what he is talking about. You should apologize.

But the point you are missing is that while you may learn more about how to keep your balance while doing other movements, I do not think you will learn how to do a kick correctly,

By the way, I've thoroughly enjoyed this banter with all of you. I will, in the future, attempt to come up with many more misguided ideas about the martial arts to bounce off you guys.

Sadly, I think you will have more and more if you attempt to learn this way. And as you are responding now, I think you will get diminishing returns.