How much time does a typical Hapkido class devote to kicking compared to TKD?

[Tony Dismukes]

The heart plexus is a bundle of nerves associated with the heart. It can be struck with a fist, or as we would usually do, with the end of a short stick.

heart plexus - Bing

Brachial plexus injury as an unusual complication of coronary artery bypass graft surgery

Hmm ... so the heart plexus is an internal structure protected by the rib cage? Not so likely to produce a lethal result via an unarmed strike in that case. That would be a legal target not only in MMA, but most full contact striking competition - including boxing. Muay Thai, Kyokushin Karate, etc. I don't think I can recall a single fatality due to a strike to that location.

The brachial plexus is a different spot and a much better target for striking. It's unlikely to have lethal results, but it can produce knockouts. Some combat sports allow strikes to the brachial plexus while others do not. MMA allows it.

 

[oftheherd1]

Hmm ... so the heart plexus is an internal structure protected by the rib cage? Not so likely to produce a lethal result via an unarmed strike in that case. That would be a legal target not only in MMA, but most full contact striking competition - including boxing. Muay Thai, Kyokushin Karate, etc. I don't think I can recall a single fatality due to a strike to that location.

The brachial plexus is a different spot and a much better target for striking. It's unlikely to have lethal results, but it can produce knockouts. Some combat sports allow strikes to the brachial plexus while others do not. MMA allows it.

Well, I will admit I have never struck anyone at the heart plexus, but I have trained it in short stick training. But along with the notch strike, I was told it was very likely to put a person down, and possibly kill them.

I agree the brachial plexus is also likely to put a person down, but I have never done so.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well, I will admit I have never struck anyone at the heart plexus, but I have trained it in short stick training. But along with the notch strike, I was told it was very likely to put a person down, and possibly kill them.

Where exactly is the external location you were taught to strike that would supposedly affect the heart plexus?

Are you sure you're not talking about the solar plexus? That's a good striking target, though unlikely to cause fatality.

 

[oftheherd1]

Where exactly is the external location you were taught to strike that would supposedly affect the heart plexus?

Are you sure you're not talking about the solar plexus? That's a good striking target, though unlikely to cause fatality.

It is a little difficult for me to describe. It is to the left of the centerline and above the breast/nipple. I think you just need to learn and adjust for different people. For me it wasn't so difficult to figure where it was as I have some knowledge of human anatomy.

No, I am not confusing it with the solar plexus, and I agree it is not likely to cause death, but it can. In Korea a KATUSA was kicked by another KATUSA who had his boots on. The Xiphoid process was broken and forced into the heart, killing that KATUSA.

 

[Raymond]

I'll let you know once I find out what the typical HKD class is

The answer will vary based on the curriculum of the school, its organization, its lineage, etc etc

 

[Axiom]

I'll let you know once I find out what the typical HKD class is

The answer will vary based on the curriculum of the school, its organization, its lineage, etc etc

You mean TKD, right? TKD I can tell you - bare minimum 50% training in kicking.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You mean TKD, right? TKD I can tell you - bare minimum 50% training in kicking.

Really? And you know this based on your vast experience in one school?

Generalizing from inadequate experience is unwise. Especially about something as widespread and varied as TKD.

The only realistic answer is that it depends on the curriculum of the individual school and the preferences of the instructor(s). And the day of the week, even.

 

[Axiom]

Really? And you know this based on your vast experience in one school?

Generalizing from inadequate experience is unwise. Especially about something as widespread and varied as TKD.

The only realistic answer is that it depends on the curriculum of the individual school and the preferences of the instructor(s). And the day of the week, even.

Come on bro, a TaeKwonDo school that devotes less than 50% of it's time to kicking overall? I'd say my statement is very safe to make even without empirical evidence to support it.

 

[elder999]

Come on bro, a TaeKwonDo school that devotes less than 50% of it's time to kicking overall? I'd say my statement is very safe to make even without empirical evidence to support it.

Yeah, you'd be wrong.....again.

Point of interest:

The techniques of the Taegeuk series of poomsae are 80% hands. Just over half of that is defensive or blocking technique, the other half aggressive striking. Less than 20% is kicking, and the majority of those kicks are front kicks.

If your class schedule is in line with that, then I'm not sure hand techniques are neglected. Of course we balance up by practicing more kicking.

Gnarlie

This is a good point to bring up. It is apparent that there are different flavors of TKD with some being more inclined towards a specific venue. As one begins to 'specialize' in one area it is very possible for some elements to be dropped or neglected over time. This leads to the above quote which is similar to what I've said in the past, you can't teach what you haven't learned.



Which begs the question of why TKD is considered primarily a kicking art. At least originally, and in certain organizations, hand use (whether defensive, offensive, locking, throwing etc) was much more in use. To me, this is a better representation of the art as a whole as it takes into account more training options than focusing on just one specific area for one venue. Not to suggest that specialization for a specific venue is wrong, only that there is far more to the art if one wishes.

 

[Axiom]

Yeah, you'd be wrong.....again.

LOL? How can I write out obscure in enough adjectives?

 

[Axiom]

"Of course we balance up by practicing more kicking"

/Your source.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

LOL? How can I write out obscure in enough adjectives?

How is having 80% hands in the poomsae curriculum obscure?

Even if that statement isn't true, your statement was "TKD I can tell you - bare minimum 50% training in kicking." Those people you're considering obscure are evidence that's not always true.

 

[Axiom]

How is having 80% hands in the poomsae curriculum obscure?.

That's normal. It doesn't tell us anything about the distributed training because pattern is only one part of TKD training. But the other quote was kinda of hinting that some schools might very well spend more than 50% on hand techniques.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That's normal. It doesn't tell us anything about the distributed training because pattern is only one part of TKD training. But the other quote was kinda of hinting that some schools might very well spend more than 50% on hand techniques.

Ah, ok. I would agree based on my own experience that what they practice is not mostly hand techniques. But I would assume that if the patterns teach that much more hand techniques than kicking techniques, they should be? Where was the disconnect there from poomsae/pattern to practice?

 

[Gnarlie]

"Of course we balance up by practicing more kicking"

/Your source.

By "we", I mean my class, not TKD as a whole.

Failure to recognise the link between form and function lies with the individual.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[elder999]

LOL? How can I write out obscure in enough adjectives?

I will outline why TaeKwondo, no matter contact level, or even rules, breaks down in a Muay Thai ring against a skilled Thaistylist. This despite the fact that all strikes in Muay Thai are also in TaeKwondo! My reasons may surprise you.

1. Footwork. TKDoins are often renowned for their speedy and light footwork. However, being light on your feet in a Thaiboxing ring also carries the disadvantage of being easier to knock OFF your feet. Thaiboxers in comparision are more flat footed but rock solid to the ground. Getting put on your butt repeatedly will wear and tear on you. And this will happen even more easily with one foot up in the air kicking..

2. The kicks. This ties in to the point above. TaeKwondo kicks are snappy and quick of the feet, but makes one liable to get pushed off balance in a rule set in which you can actually grabb and push down kicks. Stability will once again be a major question mark. This is demoralising in the long run and, the kicks you perfected in the dojang won't get you as many points (or KO'S) as you might have previously though..

3. The hands. To break a skilled Muay Thai fighters defence in the ring you will need to soften him/her up with boxing, and/ or have a boxing defence to punches. Kicking alone will not get the job done against a legit guy(especially not concidering 1 and 2). TKD guys are not drilled in either offense or defence to the level required.

4. No clinch. This can be modified in theory, but I will list it here given that most clubs neglect it.

5. Lack of Continious fighting. TKD is geared towards one strike, one victory philosophy. Even WTF rules that allow full contact break after making contact. It will be an adjustment for a TKD fighter simply fight on and is definately puts him/her in a slight psychological disadvantage, compared to the thaifighter.

Feel free to comment and disagree on any of the points!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would like to know why it depends on the TKD schools but not Judo? Is Elder suggesting that Judo has no crappy dojos?

Where did he say it didn't depend for the Judo schools?

 

[Axiom]

By "we", I mean my class, not TKD as a whole.

Failure to recognise the link between form and function lies with the individual.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Yeah and he quoted YOU

 

[Axiom]

Ah, ok. I would agree based on my own experience that what they practice is not mostly hand techniques. But I would assume that if the patterns teach that much more hand techniques than kicking techniques, they should be? Where was the disconnect there from poomsae/pattern to practice?

No because of what I just wrote. TKD instructors do take into account the fact that forms are very hand oriented and to make the art distinctly Korean then spend a majority (not all) of other drills with kicks. This is how it should be as well IMO

 

[Raymond]

You mean TKD, right? TKD I can tell you - bare minimum 50% training in kicking.

No I mean HKD. The thread title starts with the phrase "how much time does a typical hapkido class . . .". The point of my post is that Hapkido is such a widely varied art with lots of orgs and independent dojangs, it is impossible to call any class "typical".

Hapkido has joint locks, throws, take down, hand strikes, kicks etc. Even the kicks between organizations will be different. When you have so many things in the art, with so many ways to do it, there is no typical. Broad generalizations are impossible to make so I don't even think its worth debating.