How much does this REALLY matter?

[Bob Hubbard]

I think Rick and Harold hit it on the head.

75% (as of this posting) see it having some level of effect.

The bottom line is, we want history, facts, techniques, information, and other things that will add to a positive, productive environment.

We don't want challenges, ultimatums, bad-blood, dirty laundry, public pissups, flamefests or subtle sniping.

"Real Life" issues should be worked out in private, off board preferably. Send an email, a registered letter or pick up a phone. Respect the other persons right to say no, or say nothing. When this stuff is aired here, it creates a negative enviroment, an "us vs them" feel, and keeps others from feeling comfortable joining the conversation. It takes the 'fun' out of things, and if it's not 'fun', I for one, don't want to do it.

There will be times where 2 or more parties have different opinions.
Thats fine.
There will be times when each persons 'facts' differ.
Thats fine too.
Back your position up with supporting data, keep your mind open, and most importantly, keep your cool.

 

[Tgace]

Great stuff....

http://members.aol.com/intwg/flamewars.htm

http://members.aol.com/intwg/antiprocess.htm

As I said earlier, I'm not really saying anything new. Many people already conduct their discussions with sensitivity to the needs of others. Here's a poem about that kind of approach...


Density

Copyright © 2003 by Timothy Campbell

If you speak to a person's heart
instead of talking at their brain
You won't be forced to repeat yourself
over and over and over again


It is my belief that even the most logically-reasoned argument will be far more effective when we have a compassionate appreciation of the other person's humanity.

 

[RickRed]

I think Rick and Harold hit it on the head.

75% (as of this posting) see it having some level of effect.

The bottom line is, we want history, facts, techniques, information, and other things that will add to a positive, productive environment.

We don't want challenges, ultimatums, bad-blood, dirty laundry, public pissups, flamefests or subtle sniping.

"Real Life" issues should be worked out in private, off board preferably. Send an email, a registered letter or pick up a phone. Respect the other persons right to say no, or say nothing. When this stuff is aired here, it creates a negative enviroment, an "us vs them" feel, and keeps others from feeling comfortable joining the conversation. It takes the 'fun' out of things, and if it's not 'fun', I for one, don't want to do it.

There will be times where 2 or more parties have different opinions.
Thats fine.
There will be times when each persons 'facts' differ.
Thats fine too.
Back your position up with supporting data, keep your mind open, and most importantly, keep your cool.

Actually the stats only indicate what people think how important this stuff is.

It doesn't automatically indicate what any voters want. That would take a thread or poll that clearly focuses on that idea.

I think the strongest indicators of how important all this stuff is are the unconditional yes or no categories:

Not at all: 25% solid
Yes: 21.88 %

The people who answered conditionally with either "only for the leaders" or marginally can only be valued through interpretation.

That only means that the majority of those that made a strong stance don't think this stuff is that big a deal.

I think the proof in what the viewers whant is currently in the viewing volumes during the heated debates and between the heated debates.

I think it is pretty clear from the volume that there is a lot less traffic when the history, information, facts, techniques.... is the focus.

I still say that contraversies, even the drama of personallities, could be positive contribution if people would stop being defensive, egotistical, assuming and juvenile. Keep it on the net or off, but keep it mature and keep the spirit of resolving problems alive and even the drama can be productive.

What better postive image could there be than someone willing to go public with an offer to resolve a personallity difference/feud or what ever could there be?

THere is also the problem of whether censoring information or discussions so that only a positive impression or a fun image is presented is fair to the uninitiated. Wouldn't a false sense of 'positive' really be negative when it looks like a lie when people find out the rest at a seminar or after talking to instructors that gossip with students during classes?

 

[Guro Harold]

This will be the last time that I chime in on this issue in an informal manner.

We welcome any posts in the MA section that means the pre-requisites as stated in this thread:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27549.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Bottom line is though, we simply are tired of the problems.
If that means less traffic, we're fine with that.
If people want a forum full of the primadonnas doing chest banging, they will have to go elsewhere.

I've heard from several major Arnis instructors that the reason they avoid MT is because of the "controvercy". I've heard from more groups than I can count in fact. I, and our staff want that to change. I would love to see the Presas family, the Motts, etc posting, feeling comfortable enough and welcome enough to post. Maybe we can't satisfy them all, but, it would be nice to see a few more high-level folks wandering in.

 

[RickRed]

Yeah, but I think that it is the desire of the staff of MT and its other members for all these dramas not to be played on this board and that we stick to content.

Based on the high volume of viewers during the drama I would say it is more from the MT staff, and those Staff members involved in MA than the members.

I applaud a desire to screen quality and decency, absolutely. That is the responsibility of the owners/administrators and it is good to see action to that end. Enforced fairly and without any bias and it should improve the quality.

It's a shame that the volume doesn't support how popular those actions are so far. Maybe it will change with time.

 

[Tgace]

Is there a way to find "monster threads"? Threads with the most number of posts?

 

[RickRed]

Bottom line is though, we simply are tired of the problems.
If that means less traffic, we're fine with that.
If people want a forum full of the primadonnas doing chest banging, they will have to go elsewhere.

I've heard from several major Arnis instructors that the reason they avoid MT is because of the "controvercy". I've heard from more groups than I can count in fact. I, and our staff want that to change. I would love to see the Presas family, the Motts, etc posting, feeling comfortable enough and welcome enough to post. Maybe we can't satisfy them all, but, it would be nice to see a few more high-level folks wandering in.

Again, I'm glad to see the active desire to make a change. It is also nice to see how you have stepped back from the dramas and improved your behavior over the course of posting. Personal and professional change all around.

The contraversies could be ONE reason that some players don't show up here or at all, but I would bet that there are other issues too that keep folks from joining in on MT. You can't control the bad blood or interorganziational fighting or perceptions of quality but you can control the environment here.

Time will tell how it pans out.

 

[shesulsa]

I've heard from several major Arnis instructors that the reason they avoid MT is because of the "controvercy". I've heard from more groups than I can count in fact. I, and our staff want that to change.

It's not just Arnis instructors, either, Bob. And I want it to change too.

What better postive image could there be than someone willing to go public with an offer to resolve a personallity difference/feud or what ever could there be?

I've rarely experienced a feud gone public that really didn't need to be which was resolved publicly - not really. And we all know dirty laundry draws traffic and always will. I suppose it depends - do you want a lot of people around you, or do you want a few good people around you? I'd go for the latter.

Kudos, Bob. I'm really, really happy you've taken this stand.

 

[MJS]

The contraversies could be ONE reason that some players don't show up here or at all, but I would bet that there are other issues too that keep folks from joining in on MT. You can't control the bad blood or interorganziational fighting or perceptions of quality but you can control the environment here.

Time will tell how it pans out.



I still say that contraversies, even the drama of personallities, could be positive contribution if people would stop being defensive, egotistical, assuming and juvenile. Keep it on the net or off, but keep it mature and keep the spirit of resolving problems alive and even the drama can be productive.

What better postive image could there be than someone willing to go public with an offer to resolve a personallity difference/feud or what ever could there be?

Personally, I don't see how any bad blood, disagreements, or whatever else people want to call it, can possibly be positive?? If we look at the main page of this forum it says "Friendly discussion about the Martial Arts." That being said, that is exactly what should be taking place. If people want a grudge match, take it somewhere else. Its pathetic if people join for the sole purpose of watching an online pissing match! How is that contributing to the forum?

So, back to some productive discussion about Modern Arnis. BTW, those anyo threads still seem pretty quiet.

Mike

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Is there a way to find "monster threads"? Threads with the most number of posts?

Not at the moment. There was a hack for earlier versions of this software, but not this one yet.

 

[DrBarber]

Personally, I don't see how any bad blood, disagreements, or whatever else people want to call it, can possibly be positive?? If we look at the main page of this forum it says "Friendly discussion about the Martial Arts." That being said, that is exactly what should be taking place. If people want a grudge match, take it somewhere else. Its pathetic if people join for the sole purpose of watching an online pissing match! How is that contributing to the forum?

So, back to some productive discussion about Modern Arnis. BTW, those anyo threads still seem pretty quiet.

Mike

Bad blood, etc. is never positive! It always detracts from putting energy into positive things. The disagreements will never be solved in public, but the openings/entries to discussions often have to get started in public venues in order to move them to private venues for the nuts and bolts of diplomacy and discussion to take place.

With regard to the anyo threads, the major problem is that these are performance oriented and verbal descriptions are not generally adequate enough to fully explain the subtle differences that exisist between the different people who perform them.

In addition the Modern Arnis anyos are generally agreed to be Shotokan based, therefore the movements are not entirely compatable to what is taught within the art itself. In large measure the anyos are linear and the basic movements of Modern Arnis are semi-circular in nature.

There is a dis-connect between the anyos and the empty hand movements of Modern Arnis. Until that dis-connect can be resolved, a
in-depth, detailed discussion is really not possible. Then there is the
small matter of disagreements and how people would work toward resolving those disagreements without personal attacks coming forward. Therefore I am not surprised that there isn't a large influx of people participating in the threads on anyos.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[MJS]

Bad blood, etc. is never positive! It always detracts from putting energy into positive things. The disagreements will never be solved in public, but the openings/entries to discussions often have to get started in public venues in order to move them to private venues for the nuts and bolts of diplomacy and discussion to take place.

Sorry Mr. Barber, but I have to disagree. How do you figure that personal matters have to be made public? They IMHO should start and end in private.

With regard to the anyo threads, the major problem is that these are performance oriented and verbal descriptions are not generally adequate enough to fully explain the subtle differences that exisist between the different people who perform them.

Hmm..well, it is fact that it is hard at times to put something on the forum, have it make sense and at the same time, hope that everyone reading it will understand it. However, that is what a discussion forum is for...to discuss. Take a look at some of the other areas on here...its being done all the time.

In addition the Modern Arnis anyos are generally agreed to be Shotokan based, therefore the movements are not entirely compatable to what is taught within the art itself. In large measure the anyos are linear and the basic movements of Modern Arnis are semi-circular in nature.

The anyos are part of the art. That being said, they should be able to be discussed. They may not seem as 'interesting' as some of the heated matches that take place here, but IMHO they are much more productive.

There is a dis-connect between the anyos and the empty hand movements of Modern Arnis. Until that dis-connect can be resolved, a
in-depth, detailed discussion is really not possible. Then there is the
small matter of disagreements and how people would work toward resolving those disagreements without personal attacks coming forward. Therefore I am not surprised that there isn't a large influx of people participating in the threads on anyos.

Like any form, there will of course be many different applications/translations. Thats what makes a discussion interesting. Again, most likely the reason they are not active, is because people would rather spend time fighting with others.

Thanks for the friendly discussion.

Mike

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I put out the Anyos as a start. Any of the techniques, concepts, etc are fair game for discussion. I've gotten very few responses to my call for video clips. If those were up, it would most likely aid in the visualization of the things being discussed.

 

[Tgace]

Martial arts are a physical medium first and a visual one second. 99.9% of the times im lost and dont even bother trying to understand verbal descriptions of techniques. This is a SHOW-DO world here.

 

[Guro Harold]

Martial arts are a physical medium first and a visual one second. 99.9% of the times im lost and dont even bother trying to understand verbal descriptions of techniques. This is a SHOW-DO world here.

Great Point, Tgace!

The technique topics are only meant to be a supplement to instruction, not direct instruction itself.

Any supporting member can submit techniques or supply video.

You have done so yourself and I have supplied pictures of various topics myself.

-Palusut

 

[DrBarber]

Sorry Mr. Barber, but I have to disagree. How do you figure that personal matters have to be made public? They IMHO should start and end in private.



Hmm..well, it is fact that it is hard at times to put something on the forum, have it make sense and at the same time, hope that everyone reading it will understand it. However, that is what a discussion forum is for...to discuss. Take a look at some of the other areas on here...its being done all the time.



The anyos are part of the art. That being said, they should be able to be discussed. They may not seem as 'interesting' as some of the heated matches that take place here, but IMHO they are much more productive.



Like any form, there will of course be many different applications/translations. Thats what makes a discussion interesting. Again, most likely the reason they are not active, is because people would rather spend time fighting with others.

Thanks for the friendly discussion.

Mike

You're quite welcome. I see that we have our differences of opinions, so why don't we just leave it at that and move on?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DrBarber]

I put out the Anyos as a start. Any of the techniques, concepts, etc are fair game for discussion. I've gotten very few responses to my call for video clips. If those were up, it would most likely aid in the visualization of the things being discussed.

Amen, "Brother" Bob, amen. Preach on "Bro", preach on. Technique discussions should be accompanied by videos where possible... it sure makes it easier to understand what someone is trying to convey. Verbal descriptions are not accurate and specific enough, nor do they present the sublties that often occur in the movements. It's like the grace notes in music, hard to notate accurately.

I would enjoy seeing some of the video "explaintions".

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Guro Harold]

Amen, "Brother" Bob, amen. Preach on "Bro", preach on. Technique discussions should be accompanied by videos where possible... it sure makes it easier to understand what someone is trying to convey. Verbal descriptions are not accurate and specific enough, nor do they present the sublties that often occur in the movements. It's like the grace notes in music, hard to notate accurately.

I would enjoy seeing some of the video "explaintions".

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Hi Jerome,

I agree with you in that a "picture is worth more than a thousand words".
We would like as many members who would like to participate in supplying pictures as well as videos to do so if they choose.

-Harold

 

[Tgace]

So has this turned into "How much does written description of technique matter?".....