How Much Do You Train?

[skinters]

this thread has gone from ,how much do you train to ...well im lost if you want to talk about wing chun technique,what works what dont work start another thread,its getting tough to follow all these random threads.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

That's only if all your other techniques like counter bear hug movements , stamping on the foot , raking the edge of your foot down their shin , rear elbow strike etc have been used to no avail .

Ok, I can understand that. But the ball strike, shin kicks etc., usualy have an effect I was thought this technique that you and Yoshi mention when I trained TKD. But it just doesn't work for me.. Also people have tryed it on me when I bear huged them but one thing I notice is that instead if you're going to grab the guy at waist level, when he goes down to grab your leg(if you realy hold him) he's gonna lift you and won't be able to reach your legs. At other times(and when I grab lower so I can control more of the arms) they don't lift me but it's relatively easy to get the legs out of the way as it's a pretty big motion. Other times again, some people are just to strong that I could go down like that. Thats my experience, not saying that the technique is bad or anything.

Now that I think about it one of our standard techniques against a bear hug from behind is actually from the Bil Gee form . I have never realised it before because it is taught pretty early on in the curriculum to grade two when they have learnt the rudiments of pivoting .

• You are grabbed in rear bear hug , upper arms are pinned.
• First thing you do is bring one hand up to latch over his hands and keep them pinned so he can't bring them up to choke you.
• Then drop your weight down and stamp on his foot with your heel.
• Next you have to do three moves simultaneously , as you start to pivot bring the arm up that is controlling his hands into a horizontal elbow strike position , just as though you were going to elbow strike some one in the face with a elbow while pivoting , make sure you still keep his hands pinned.
• Continue to pivot around with your elbow pointing horizontal , then as you get to the end of your pivot , fire a rear elbow strike into him with your spare hand .
• If this doesn't break his grip , immediately pivot back around to the other side and rear elbow strike with your other hand .
• My particular favourite is to elbow strike and then palm slap the groin with the same hand.
• Just forgetting the initial stamp kick on the attackers foot for a moment which will certainly distract him and keep his nervous system occupied for a little while .
• The reason it works is because the attacker is taken slightly off balance when you drop your weight down. Then he is taken off balance again when you bring one of your arms up as this raises his arms on one side , while you are pivoting with the mass of your whole body and in turn opens his body up and gives you space to do a rear elbow strike .
• In fact I have seen high level instructors throw people off with the force of their pivot and nothing else.
• If you can visualise the technique you can see that it is straight out of Bil Gee with the pivoting elbow strikes from side to side and the spare hand returning to a chambered position which is actually a rear elbow strike application as well .

I was thought similar stuff! But the basic one I was thought against a grab from behind was that for example you step to the right with your right leg and drop your weight on the left leg(if you can imagine it) thus creating just enough space to do an elbow from behind to the guys plexus area and then let your forarm flow to the groinstrike/grab/rip. Thats just so you sartle the guy, then from then you can do various things.

 

[mook jong man]

Ok, I can understand that. But the ball strike, shin kicks etc., usualy have an effect I was thought this technique that you and Yoshi mention when I trained TKD. But it just doesn't work for me.. Also people have tryed it on me when I bear huged them but one thing I notice is that instead if you're going to grab the guy at waist level, when he goes down to grab your leg(if you realy hold him) he's gonna lift you and won't be able to reach your legs. At other times(and when I grab lower so I can control more of the arms) they don't lift me but it's relatively easy to get the legs out of the way as it's a pretty big motion. Other times again, some people are just to strong that I could go down like that. Thats my experience, not saying that the technique is bad or anything.



I was thought similar stuff! But the basic one I was thought against a grab from behind was that for example you step to the right with your right leg and drop your weight on the left leg(if you can imagine it) thus creating just enough space to do an elbow from behind to the guys plexus area and then let your forarm flow to the groinstrike/grab/rip. Thats just so you sartle the guy, then from then you can do various things.

In all honesty the Bil Gee technique where you reach down and grab the leg is probably something you would never have to use .
The main key to defending against grabs is to have the reflex to react straight away before they have time to consolidate their grip .

I am thinking about the technique you described , wouldn't it be rather hard to step anywhere if he is big and has you in a crushing grip around the upper arms , or is it that you just move your lower body to the side .

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

No, no.. You don't acctualy step to the side. A bit hard to explain. Yea, it's like just moving your hips to the side. The thing is that you just throw your right leg to the right without putting any weight on it and bending the left leg at the same time. All your weight is on your left leg. Basicly what happens is that your upper body stay at a relatively same place only in the mid area you get an opening just enoug for a chain-elbow/groin strike. I've done this to people much bigger then me, that were holding me very strongly. Try it out.

 

[mook jong man]

No, no.. You don't acctualy step to the side. A bit hard to explain. Yea, it's like just moving your hips to the side. The thing is that you just throw your right leg to the right without putting any weight on it and bending the left leg at the same time. All your weight is on your left leg. Basicly what happens is that your upper body stay at a relatively same place only in the mid area you get an opening just enoug for a chain-elbow/groin strike. I've done this to people much bigger then me, that were holding me very strongly. Try it out.

Okay , now I see .
I thought it maybe something like that .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

The Two instances I am speaking of come from self meditation I came up with on my own. As for bending down an grabbing the foot. I thought about the form while I perform it an realize this is what this is for an this what that is for. Of course each move has limitless applications. Bending down like is not just grab the foot behind you. But also to grab feet infront of you an pull them up to air. Also it could be used to duck if a dangerous object is flying your way from behind. Along with many other applications I have discovered.



But so cool What versions of Bil Gee discuss grabbing the feet do you have any videos?

I'm not sure about the first one being WC, but it seems it would be a hybrid. The shoot in could be something like chinese wrestling, etc.. and the last part of it is definate WT anti-grappling. Although many WT/WC practitioners don't concider anti-grappling to be "pure" WT.

The second one: isn't that a move in Bui Gee? Where you bend over and reach between your legs and come back up? I've seen that in a few versions of Bui Gee.
So, yeah, that would and could be WT/WC.

 

[Si-Je]

Well, Sifu told me they do something similar in Kempo.
You bend over at the waist and grab their legs when their behind you in say a rear bearhug with your arms free.
Not only do you grab the foot and yank it up and through your legs, but you "bootie bump" them as you bend over.
I.E. hit them with your butt in the waist to unbalance them as you yank their legs up to help you take them off their feet.

I wouldn't bend over in front of someone to grab their legs and do that technqiue. Might get kicked in the face.
But, if your already down there... Like you fell, or got thrown down then go for it.

 

[dungeonworks]

Well, Sifu told me they do something similar in Kempo.
You bend over at the waist and grab their legs when their behind you in say a rear bearhug with your arms free.
Not only do you grab the foot and yank it up and through your legs, but you "bootie bump" them as you bend over.
I.E. hit them with your butt in the waist to unbalance them as you yank their legs up to help you take them off their feet.

I wouldn't bend over in front of someone to grab their legs and do that technqiue. Might get kicked in the face.
But, if your already down there... Like you fell, or got thrown down then go for it.

Sounds like a very a great way to get dumped on your head! Bend for his foot (if you can because he has to bend too and hopefully his lumbars are weaker than your abs) and he will be in much better position to toss you face first onto the ground....butt bump and all.

 

[Si-Je]

Sigh, if you say so.
Sure, why not? Anthing can happen, what if?
There's a counter to every counter to every counter. It's just one technique. Just one idea of applying one technique.
I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it that way myself, but others might pull it off. Would a teach a small woman to do that against a big guy? Probably not.
But, I'm harsher on my expectations of any martial art. If it doesn't work for the smaller defender then it's garbage and useless to me. But, someone else might want those techniques, it might work for someone else. So, you teach more of a broader range of techniques for the same attacks.
Dai sau for example (my fav) you can train all the applications of Dai Sau for years and years and years. The same with any technique, coming up with different and new applications all the time.
This position in the form, bending over and raising your arms up? What is it used for?
Ask your Sifu.
Then ask a different Sifu, if they even have it in their form.
Then ask a student.
On and on.
Then, make up your own mind what you want from the movement.

 

[mook jong man]

I am only going off hear say , about the reaching down and grabbing the leg technique . The guy that told me was an ex kempo guy turned WC instructor, I never heard it from my Sifus mouth , It probably would have been a good idea to ask him while he was still alive but I didn't .

One thing I do know is that if it is in the Bil Gee it is an emergency technique where all other avenues have failed , and as with all the moves in the forms it will have many , many different applications .

My thoughts are that for it to be an effective technique the attackers grip would have to be quite low so as to enable you to bend forward and would probably be better done with a distraction technique like a stamp on the foot a split second before diving down to grab the leg .

As for being dumped on your head that is quite possible , but if you are senior enough to be practicing Bil Gee and have done it for a number of years , then that move should be able to be done in a split second . It might even be possible to brace one hand on the ground and reef their leg out with your other hand , in my experience some of the techniques are not always done verbatim as in the forms , the forms are only a guide line and a lot of the techniques in application are executed slightly differently .

There are a lot of misconceptions and myths surrounding Bil Gee mainly because of the secrecy surrounding it , the other forms were out there in the open and could be dissected and analysed , have you ever heard the saying " Bil Gee never goes out the door " . Which means it was never shown to outsiders or even junior students of the school .

I believe that we will never know all the applications of the Bil Gee form because probably some of them especially the last section have been forgotten and left behind in the long dark mists of time .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, The techniques done are not the same way verbatim when doing them fighting...

The Situation would have to present itself. As for bending down. I was simply showing an idea on how to shoot is found with in WC. Of Course when you go down. Your arms should sheild against a kick or block against a kick. Your should move fast. When your feelers make contact with the legs. You should be able to feel movements and shift of weight. By grabbing the back of knees or heels you should lift the feet or legs up towards heaven trying to drop them on back of their head. This move should be done in clinch posistion in my posistion. An I wouldn't do it first. Proabably as a last resort.


But thats my opinion on some of possible application. To me Iron fingers and Iron palm are essential to make many of the techniques in Bli Gee work effeciently. But this is my opinion. Thats why I brought up certain topics on other threads. To me many of the techniques will have to be change from open hand techniques to close fist techniques for an uncondition practioner to use them. This may be also another reason why it was taught last out of the other two forms. Because you had to reach of level of conditioning before this form's primary moves could be useful.
Otherwise I don't see how many of the techniques could be consider dangerous. Because Muay Thai has elbow strikes. But I think Bil Gee is great for the Chi. It has many great moves that is great to spar with too. Along with shifting the body and using the shift to give you more power. But you need to tweak many moves to be useful in actual combat. So take the finger strikes out an replace them with chain punches. Move palm strikes to body to face. Because with out enough power a palm strike to the kidneys is useless.

Enjoy the videos::barf:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBrIuxxk8ec&feature=related

I am only going off hear say , about the reaching down and grabbing the leg technique . The guy that told me was an ex kempo guy turned WC instructor, I never heard it from my Sifus mouth , It probably would have been a good idea to ask him while he was still alive but I didn't .

One thing I do know is that if it is in the Bil Gee it is an emergency technique where all other avenues have failed , and as with all the moves in the forms it will have many , many different applications .

My thoughts are that for it to be an effective technique the attackers grip would have to be quite low so as to enable you to bend forward and would probably be better done with a distraction technique like a stamp on the foot a split second before diving down to grab the leg .

As for being dumped on your head that is quite possible , but if you are senior enough to be practicing Bil Gee and have done it for a number of years , then that move should be able to be done in a split second . It might even be possible to brace one hand on the ground and reef their leg out with your other hand , in my experience some of the techniques are not always done verbatim as in the forms , the forms are only a guide line and a lot of the techniques in application are executed slightly differently .

There are a lot of misconceptions and myths surrounding Bil Gee mainly because of the secrecy surrounding it , the other forms were out there in the open and could be dissected and analysed , have you ever heard the saying " Bil Gee never goes out the door " . Which means it was never shown to outsiders or even junior students of the school .

I believe that we will never know all the applications of the Bil Gee form because probably some of them especially the last section have been forgotten and left behind in the long dark mists of time .