How Much Do You Train?

[mook jong man]

To me it's amazing what some people can do with their legs! My brother for example is a black belt in TKD and when he trained he could easily hit me for example with an Naryo Chagi(I think thats what you mean with the Axe kick; the one going down verticaly?) to the head from punching range. And probably faster then I could have kicked him to the mid area! Another thing to think about good kickers; I know a TKD guy who was able to kick a WT practitioner (who was relatively high ranking;had students) in the head when the WT guy knew he was going to be kicked and knew with what leg he was going to be hit and knew it was going to be full speed.

There is no doubt about it , you will be kicked in the head if you just stand there . One of my instructors was a former south pacific TKD champion who later went to Wing Chun , a huge guy he was too , a family of five could have camped on his chest .

Anyway one day we asked him if he could show us the speed of his high kicks , he did a kick up to my face as quick as a flash and it was like the speed of a punch .

I told him to do it again , this time as soon as his shoulder moved I stepped in as fast as I could with my guard up and made contact with the back of his upper thigh and knocked him over , this happened several times .

He said thats why he no longer did TKD , because you might have fast legs but someone with good reflexes and fast footwork can move in quickly and exploit the fact that you are on one leg .

So my advice is to do your own center line kick as soon as they move or step in as fast as you can and hit them like a truck . Just don't be where they want you to be which is in their kicking range , move into your punching range as fast as possible .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well the if he was really a TKD champion I would say the guy was out practice if you could dump him on the floor that easily. Unless you were already a Wing Chun Instructor or greater. If you could dump him that simply means he hasn't been practicing the TKD that much anymore since he switch to WC. Also note some TKD or TSD guys can kick in punching range as fast as you can punch. Its better to be in trapping range than kicking range with them.

There is no doubt about it , you will be kicked in the head if you just stand there . One of my instructors was a former south pacific TKD champion who later went to Wing Chun , a huge guy he was too , a family of five could have camped on his chest .

Anyway one day we asked him if he could show us the speed of his high kicks , he did a kick up to my face as quick as a flash and it was like the speed of a punch .

I told him to do it again , this time as soon as his shoulder moved I stepped in as fast as I could with my guard up and made contact with the back of his upper thigh and knocked him over , this happened several times .

He said thats why he no longer did TKD , because you might have fast legs but someone with good reflexes and fast footwork can move in quickly and exploit the fact that you are on one leg .

So my advice is to do your own center line kick as soon as they move or step in as fast as you can and hit them like a truck . Just don't be where they want you to be which is in their kicking range , move into your punching range as fast as possible .

 

[mook jong man]

Well the if he was really a TKD champion I would say the guy was out practice if you could dump him on the floor that easily. Unless you were already a Wing Chun Instructor or greater. If you could dump him that simply means he hasn't been practicing the TKD that much anymore since he switch to WC. Also note some TKD or TSD guys can kick in punching range as fast as you can punch. Its better to be in trapping range than kicking range with them.

Yes I was an instructor , and I didn't say it was easy , I had to move in very fast at the first hint of his movement . But once I was in there , it didn't take much effort to put him on the floor , after all he was standing on one leg , with the other leg up around my head height and his upper body leaning back , not exactly a stable structure .

I do realise they can kick in punching range , that is why you keep moving forward fast and aggressively using your stance and chi sau to manipulate their balance so that they aren't in a position to be throwing any more kicks .

They should be too busy backpeddaling trying to get away from your onslaught to be able to launch any effective kicks from any stable stance.

 

[Zero]

I went to reform school.

Living in America we tend to waste so much time on unfullfilling things that we neglect the things that matter most.

Jadecloud you are so right. I spend a lot of my time (outside of long working days and time keeping my wife happy(!! - essential!!) training. But I have recently looked at the time I still spend on the couch watching junk on TV (I think a decent fight movie is excluded from that!) - it is not much at all but still any time watching meaningless drivel is time wasted and has not helped me along the track with my goals.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

One problem I have with defence against kick is that somethings work realy well in theory but in the real situation you'+re not gonna know if his gona hit you with his right/left hand or right/left foot. Plus there are souch things to consider as feinting and broken rhytem and great speed.

In the sense of defence against kicks I prefer what I was thought in EBMAS-what Emin teaches; that once the guy is in kicking range you just kick him to the bladder area which is often imobile. Tho a quick side shifting roundhouse kick from a good kicker can screw that up too. The main thing is you realy can't expect whats gonna happen. And good kicker telegraph very little. Plus most cover the centerline with their kick and from there they change to a roundhouse kick to the head for example. Just becouse of that very thing that you are voulnerable to straight attack while doing round ones.

But yea, Mook, I agree, getting in is usualy a good idea. I mean no disrespect just I would like to ask you if you think you could pull that of without knowing that the guy is neceserely going to use his legs as an attack you and where he is going to land the attack. Not saying I have a better way against kicks or anything I'm just saying it's pretty screwed up if you faced a good kicker.

 

[mook jong man]

One problem I have with defence against kick is that somethings work realy well in theory but in the real situation you'+re not gonna know if his gona hit you with his right/left hand or right/left foot. Plus there are souch things to consider as feinting and broken rhytem and great speed.

In the sense of defence against kicks I prefer what I was thought in EBMAS-what Emin teaches; that once the guy is in kicking range you just kick him to the bladder area which is often imobile. Tho a quick side shifting roundhouse kick from a good kicker can screw that up too. The main thing is you realy can't expect whats gonna happen. And good kicker telegraph very little. Plus most cover the centerline with their kick and from there they change to a roundhouse kick to the head for example. Just becouse of that very thing that you are voulnerable to straight attack while doing round ones.

But yea, Mook, I agree, getting in is usualy a good idea. I mean no disrespect just I would like to ask you if you think you could pull that of without knowing that the guy is neceserely going to use his legs as an attack you and where he is going to land the attack. Not saying I have a better way against kicks or anything I'm just saying it's pretty screwed up if you faced a good kicker.

In our school we were taught to step in for everything , as soon as he moves you step in . Whether he is going to do a leg attack or arm attack it doesn't matter , If I step in and he punches , my guard will intercept it , if I see him start to launch a straight kick I will jam it with a charging knee .
Just remember to guard your centreline as you move in , a charging knee can cover a lot of ground , jam their kick and cover your centreline at the same time .
Nothings perfect and you will wear some kicks but it wont be enough to hurt you because you aren't in the proper range for their kicks . In my opinion the low kicks to the thigh are the ones you have to watch out for because one of them can cripple you and really put a damper on your ability to move .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

So true a good kicker will searching for an opening. His intial kicks will come fast and hard to try to stir you up and open you up. He may use various tactics. But you have to be ready to adapt feel and sense his next movement and where it is intended to land...

Very good post!

One problem I have with defence against kick is that somethings work realy well in theory but in the real situation you'+re not gonna know if his gona hit you with his right/left hand or right/left foot. Plus there are souch things to consider as feinting and broken rhytem and great speed.

In the sense of defence against kicks I prefer what I was thought in EBMAS-what Emin teaches; that once the guy is in kicking range you just kick him to the bladder area which is often imobile. Tho a quick side shifting roundhouse kick from a good kicker can screw that up too. The main thing is you realy can't expect whats gonna happen. And good kicker telegraph very little. Plus most cover the centerline with their kick and from there they change to a roundhouse kick to the head for example. Just becouse of that very thing that you are voulnerable to straight attack while doing round ones.

But yea, Mook, I agree, getting in is usualy a good idea. I mean no disrespect just I would like to ask you if you think you could pull that of without knowing that the guy is neceserely going to use his legs as an attack you and where he is going to land the attack. Not saying I have a better way against kicks or anything I'm just saying it's pretty screwed up if you faced a good kicker.

 

[Si-Je]

I've had a high success rate with simply throwing heel kick out there. You don't have to necessarily aim for the kicking leg or standing leg, just make sure that whether the kick connects or not you step in with the kick while chainpunching or haveing guard up and ready.

No matter what kick they throw I almost always connect with heel kick to stop their kick. Chainpunching to cover the head and be ready to respond to higher kicks, feints, hand strikes, etc.
Sifu Emin seems to do that alot. He just explodes into them as soon as they move withing range of his kick and or hands.
Garn sau is neat off roundhouse kicks and very effective and easy to get set up for. It just sort of happens as you step into the moving attacker. I've done garn sau off a roundhouse while heelkicking the midsection and stepping in. Accidentally, so to speak. I just didn't know they were throwing a roundhouse and by the time they "twitched" to kick I was already stepping into the inside of their kicking leg. My heel kick missed but it became just a step and garn sau was there to put them to the floor.
Jumping in there and seemingly "running into a kick" is daunting at first and it took me a long time to get over the initial "freak out", but after I did it's really effective almost every time.
Is EBMAS the only branch of WT that does this?

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I've had a high success rate with simply throwing heel kick out there. You don't have to necessarily aim for the kicking leg or standing leg, just make sure that whether the kick connects or not you step in with the kick while chainpunching or haveing guard up and ready.

No matter what kick they throw I almost always connect with heel kick to stop their kick. Chainpunching to cover the head and be ready to respond to higher kicks, feints, hand strikes, etc.
Sifu Emin seems to do that alot. He just explodes into them as soon as they move withing range of his kick and or hands.
Garn sau is neat off roundhouse kicks and very effective and easy to get set up for. It just sort of happens as you step into the moving attacker. I've done garn sau off a roundhouse while heelkicking the midsection and stepping in. Accidentally, so to speak. I just didn't know they were throwing a roundhouse and by the time they "twitched" to kick I was already stepping into the inside of their kicking leg. My heel kick missed but it became just a step and garn sau was there to put them to the floor.
Jumping in there and seemingly "running into a kick" is daunting at first and it took me a long time to get over the initial "freak out", but after I did it's really effective almost every time.
Is EBMAS the only branch of WT that does this?

Well heel/stop kicks where one of the things I was refering to when I spoke abou things that work well in theory but not so much in practice(for me). At least when I spar good kickers. Imagine a guy who is a good kicker and his whole gameplay is distance and he knows how to keep it and use it to his benefit. Now when I'm facing a guy like that and I don't realy know if he's gonna throw a jab or a kick at me, I find it hard to "catch" his foot with my heel. But that may be a thing that I personaly suck at.

About hands against kicks; I was thought by my WC instructor that if you can help it you don't want to do that. And I must say I agree for most situations. For this exact techniques you speak of(if I understan which one you mean), I think this one is very popular with WT people. The one where you do a Gan sao and then go to a high tan sao or a biu tan? People like Leung Ting and Emin like to demonstrate it so that they catch the kick with the Gan and then throw the guy with the tan. Looks very cool But I think thats the exact technique the WT guy that was kicked in the head by a good kicker(the story I spoke of in some posts earlier) used. The problem is that if the kicker is good and you do that, the kick is gonna go threw to your head even if it was first directed to your mid area(you acctualy guide it higher). Allthough against most people(and kickers who get offbalanced quickly) it's gonna work. If you only use a Gan sao against a kick I would imagine too that you could get screwed against a good kicker. Especialy by some Muay Thaiers well conditioned shin. They have pretty powerful kicks. I acctualy saw a MT guy knock a guy out on the street with a kick to the head. Allthough kicks to the head are pretty rare on the street but are still something to consider!

 

[Si-Je]

I think that when garn sau will fail is when the WC practitioner doesn't move forward enough into the kicker. When I've used this in sparring and demos too, it only works for me if my stance is planted where their feet are.
Hense, they kick to head in a round house.
You MUST shoot in with stance and be standing where their kicking leg was before they kicked. Rooted in stance so your not toppled by a heavy leg or strong kick.
flowing from garn sau immediately to tan sau is cruitial too. This keeps your arm from being broken.
If you stop in moving forward with this technique you could very likely get your arm broken or your head knocked off.
Plus, alot of what I consider "good kickers" chamber the kick. I used to be a pretty good TSD kicker, and we did this.
In effect, you chamber your knee and leg into a "ready" position a nano second before you kick, hense chambering the kick. When you kick, you immediately bring your leg back to this position. This makes it harder for someone to grab your kicking leg and re-chambers your leg for another immediate kick, i.e. same leg kick combos.
If they kick and then take the kicking leg to "step" with leaving most if not all of their weight on the front leg, they are vulnerable for sweeps, and a broken knee. This is why you chamber after a kick, to keep from placing the kicking leg down with too much weight on it.
I've not come across alot of people who do this. Garn sau would still work but may be awkward if the leg is pulled back after a kick.
But, as long as your core (body) is touching theirs, and your stance is taking up their stance, it's all good.
Like a baseball bat being swong at you. The more you step into the "handle" or arm of the bat/opponent the less force is in the weapons attack.
The further out away from a good kicker, weapon weilding swing to your head, or even a good boxer, the worst off you are. From that range they have utilization of full power. The more inside you get the better for you even if you get a bit of the knee, or even better, the theigh. It's not going to hurt you. Maybe a little jolt, but with good abduction and stance you won't get knocked over.

A kickers worst nightmare:
Everytime they kick they get kicked in the very leg their kicking with. ouch!
This can be easy espectially if you learn to read their stance and weight position. If their weight is heavy on the front leg, their going to kick with the back leg. If their weight is heavy ont he back leg their going to kick with the front leg. With a one leg forward stance you CANNOT keep from telegraphing your kick. The weight of the body has to go somewhere, the stance is wide and the kicker has to very visably shift their hips to shift weight from one leg to the other.
They go on the ball of the foot on the front leg and turn that ankle, it's a back spin kick of some kind. Telegraph big time! They show you their butt, kick them in the butt, don't worry about the kicking leg.
Take the kickers space AWAY. Jump in there. They freak out, waste time trying to get away from you to get space to kick. Don't let them have it.

Don't let your opponet have ANYTHING that they want, actually. lol! They want to dance around and have space to kick, take it away, corner them, pressure them.
If they want to get in close and clinch, keep YOUR space while taking theirs.
If a boxer is feigting and trying to bail you dancing around to get you to rush in so they can do their awesome combo move. Don't fall for it. Heel kick them in the leg or stomach. Their footwork is really fast and versitile, stop that footwork! lol! Kick that dancing leg, step on that front foot as they shoot backwards and jab, and cover chainpunching or deflecting. Then stick to them like glue! Chi Sau time! Woot!

Sorry, feeling a little frisky today!
But, I hope some of these strategies help in the general idea of WC/WT application of principles and concepts.
Simple, simple, keep everything simple.
If your WC technique isn't easy then your doing something wrong or trying to hard, anticipating, or thinking too much. Trust me, I speak from experience for I do all those things too.
Play WC/WT, play seriously.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Great post! And some very good pointers! I would like to add tho that yea sure, you have to move in and everything is allright. If you move in enough he's screwed beyond repair

But in theory most things work... Even sport TKD or karate blocks against punches/kick. I would also like to say that in many martial schools I was thought difrent techniques for difrent things. And when I practiced them in class against compliant classmates at reasonable speeds and no follow ups it all works well.. But the first time you go spar with a good martial artist that has some experience I think most people will find out that things are not so simple as they are in theory.

Most, if they found out they're not as good as they thought they were, then accuse sparing as something that is totaly diffrent from fighting and becouse they couldn't use their precious deadly techniques it wasn't fair. To those I would say: if you are going to blind/maim/kill everybody that attacks you are going to do more harm to yourself then good in the big picture.

Besides, sparring is one of the closest training tools one has too real fighting. It's a lot more realistic than Chi sao(in my humble opinion) even though it is one of the best martial training tools out there.

The point is that WC teaches us the most efficient response to the situation, but as a human being it is very hard to exhibit such perfection or efficiency as WC expects of us. That is the simple answer in my opinion why even though WC is UNBEATABLE on paper has been beaten many times by not so "perfect or efficient" techniques. I also think that becouse of this many people choose to disregard other styles or even judge them as inferior. You must never underastimate your opponent.

Again, it may be a personal thing, and other people can handle kicks/other martial artist just fine. But still I think that one should test their skills in a realistic enviroment.

 

[Si-Je]

I totally agree with you. Sparring is the best test of your mastery and understanding of any styles techniques and concepts.

As for WC/WT being defeated in the "ring" or competition. I'm still waiting to see WC/WT technique in the ring. I found a guy in NY that's using WT in the cage and is winning. But, it seems that when that happens, people complain that he didn't go the ground or do enough ground fighting. Arghhh! frustrating.

But, I see ALOT of WC/WT people just simply not going forward into the opponent and following up with even just basic chainpunching. Especially against an opponent they know is a great kicker. Fustrates me again. That is when you've GOT to get into that kickers space and use the advantages of WC/WT close quarters techniques to work for you. Otherwise, you'll get your block knocked off.

I think alot of people don't act with enough "faith" in the concepts and principles of WC/WT when they spar or get in competition. They fail themselves and WC/WT. I see they defeat themselves before they even get the chance to try the stuff in combat by simply doubting the effectiveness and they hesitate.
Like anyother art, you've got to trust your skill, technique, style, and what your teacher is teaching you. Otherwise nothing will work no matter the style.

The body follows the mind. If your mind doubts the technique, the body will fail in executing the technique. You must visualize and be certian you can do a thing before you can actually do it.

Board breaking taught me this. Everytime I feared and doubted my ability to break, I hurt my hand and didn't break. Only when I shut up my mind talking doubt and "science" to me was I able to "believe" I could do it. And Then only could I break the board.

Think of those folks that have made an entire sport of jumping off 3-4 story buildings, ships, flipping and defying gravity performing street acrobatics. (I forget what it's called) Someone had to say one day, "yeah, I can do that." Bam! He did it. If you think it you can do it.
Believe or you will fail yourself.

Or even Skateboarders and X-Treme sports atheletes on bikes and rollerblades. Same same. Visualize it, do it. Fall, get hurt, try again and again until you pull it off. Those folks do thinks that most people still believe impossible.

These people all train, train, train. They learn by doing and by doing get better and better. Find your limitations and beat them. Don't let them limit you. Their there to be beaten and mastered, right?
WC/WT is all in the mind. You know your theory, believe in it, know your techniuqes, have the muscle memory, believe in it. You have no other choice. You must.
Then spar, test yourself, test your belief, test your theory. If you get beat, change your theory, change your limitations and make them a strength.
WC/WT teaches you how to defeat adversity.

 

[qwksilver61]

at one point I was feeling very overtrained....eating breathing and sleeping Wing Tsun...so I backed off..regrouped and turned down the burners a bit...mentally too.Now I am much calmer,my punches are more powerful,and I have greater mental clarity..which helps me to deal with crisis without overreacting or being too tense.Two cents.......

 

[mook jong man]

In my opinion Garn Sau gets a bad rap , the only problem that I have with it is that it is a bit of a passive technique by itself . Where ever possible it should be coupled with an aggressive technique like a thrusting heel kick .

I think of it more as a late phase defencive movement , for those times that you have been surprised and can't launch a more offensive technique .

We tended to use it more as I said before with a kick or against a high or low backfist where you don't know if the strike is coming to your face or groin , because it covers a wide area .

You can even use it against a straight knife thrust to the mid section and then turn your hands around to grab the weapon wielding arm . Most of the critiscism of Garn Sau comes from the fact that people have never taken the the time to learn to do it properly .

It is one of the more difficult techniques to learn and very painful in the early stages , I used to go home with bruises on my arms the size of golf balls . I reckon it took about a year before I could do a good Garn Sau against a heavy , fast kick with out suffering any ill effects .

Its all in the timing , the timing has to be impeccable , you have to start pivoting as soon as you make contact with the shin and spread all the force over the length of your arm .

If you take the force on one point of your arm the angle will either collapse or your arm will be broken , commonsense tells you that a leg has more mass than your forearm bones .

Another common mistake that people make other than not having the timing correct or angles incorrect is that they turn the upper Garn Sau into a full Tan Sau , don't have the palm facing you this is a weak structure and will collapse against heavy force . Instead after intercepting the shin with the edge of your hand and starting to pivot , dissipate the force by only rotating your forearm to a diagonal position , this is a lot stronger .

Once I had a huge monster of a man in my class , I'm talking huge , well it was our school policy to always when teaching demonstrate on the biggest guy in the group . His legs were like trees , anyway I told him to round house kick me as hard as he could , and he did , the funny thing is I didn't feel a whole lot of force through my arms when he kicked .

But the force of his kick actually went straight down to my stance and actually moved me about a foot to the right , so even though he physically moved my whole body , my angles did not collapse and I suffered no injury to my arms .

When I was at my best I could actually put red stripes across peoples shins through two layers of leg pads , but having said that , no a Garn Sau is not my first choice because it is passive I prefer to use Seung Bong with a Wing Chun side kick .

But Garn Sau is still a fine technique but it requires a lot of training , so don't think that it can't with stand a lot of heavy force because with a well trained practitioner it can .

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

As for WC/WT being defeated in the "ring" or competition. I'm still waiting to see WC/WT technique in the ring. I found a guy in NY that's using WT in the cage and is winning. But, it seems that when that happens, people complain that he didn't go the ground or do enough ground fighting. Arghhh! frustrating.

No, I didn't mean in the ring. I meant generaly. I know a couple of WT guys who got their arses kicked by some people on the street. And I doubt the other guy was a better Chisao-er or had a superior form You can find WC beaten in the ring. The first case that comes to mind is a bigger guy who goes into the cage against a groundfighter. You even see the man sao wu sao. The guy is knocked out in the first 20secs. Forgive me if I don't find you the link. But I'm sure if you type bullshido WC into youtube one of the compilations will have it. Now sure you could argue that the guy wasn't good/experienced enough. Or even that he wasn't realy using WC by your definition.

Well, the whole point of my post was that WC has all the answers. Allthough we humans are not so perfect and can't allways react to situtations the way WC expects of us. Basicly what WC says is: try to hit the guy, if something is in the way redirect his energy and finish him of with the least amount of energy in the least amount of time doing the biggest amount of deamege possible! And we also train to try to achieve it. But gee, thanks... Easier said then done. For the sake of argument I will choose Emin Boztepe. I think we can agree that he's at least as good as the best Chunner here(as an understatement). If somebody thinks he's better then.... Well good for you! He is the Dai-Sifu of his own organisations, one of the top students of Leaun Ting and one of the best Chunners in the world. His Chi Sao with Michael Casey is described on youtube as the best ChiSao demonstration EVER! When you seem him do seminars it looks like wow, how come everybody doesn't do WC?! He does the simplest, most effective techniques against any attack. How can you do better then that? It looks like poetry

But then you look at his only documented "fight". Yes I'm talking about the one with William Cheung. His WC there is alot less then by the book WC. Many say that fight was a disgrace to WC everywhere. He even goes to the ground instead of feeling his opening and strike one of his vitals on the centerline and finishing the fight in 2,5seconds. He was probalby even open a couple of times :O

I personaly see absolutely nothing wrong with that fight. Emin takes away the guys structure and basicly pounds him on the ground where Cheung could do little. But the fact reamins; when one of the best Chunners out there "applys" his teachings it isn't as poetical as on his demons. The guy even resisted less then a guy in on of his better demos It's also true that Emin defeated the guy with ease and efficiency and I also think that he did so in huge amount becouse of WC. The point is WC teaches you effective stuff, but if you can't use WC to it's full potential then use something else. If the opportunity arises, sweap the guy and take the fight to the floor, kick a roundhouse kick whatever. It realy depends on the situation and on the moment.

I write this all to make a point. Many people train WC. People in MMA, streetfighters, enthusiast etc. But why aren't all these people undefeated with such a great system? Well basicly becouse it's easier said then done. I think if you master 5% of WC you will probably be the best fighter in the world.

In my opinion Garn Sau gets a bad rap , the only problem that I have with it is that it is a bit of a passive technique by itself . Where ever possible it should be coupled with an aggressive technique like a thrusting heel kick .

Funny You guys acctualy described in the last few posts how that WT guy got kicked in the head He went into a tan rying to throw the guy while kicking at the same time at the hip, bladder area. The TKD guy did a sidejumping roundhouse kick(for a lack of a better term). Thus the guy had nothing to kick. He later comented that he shouldn't have been fulling arround and should have just went in. And that would probably be nough to nulify the kicks power yes. But who knows. Again easier said the done. Hard to step in at a good kicker who takes distance to his advantage.

It is one of the more difficult techniques to learn and very painful in the early stages , I used to go home with bruises on my arms the size of golf balls . I reckon it took about a year before I could do a good Garn Sau against a heavy , fast kick with out suffering any ill effects .

If you had so many bruises and took so long to condition your arm, don't you think that wasn't quite WC-ish. I mean, what about not going force against force? Thats the reason we didn't do a gan in such a manner. We mostly did it against arm attacks.

Once I had a huge monster of a man in my class , I'm talking huge , well it was our school policy to always when teaching demonstrate on the biggest guy in the group . His legs were like trees , anyway I told him to round house kick me as hard as he could , and he did , the funny thing is I didn't feel a whole lot of force through my arms when he kicked .

But the force of his kick actually went straight down to my stance and actually moved me about a foot to the right , so even though he physically moved my whole body , my angles did not collapse and I suffered no injury to my arms .

I don't know about that monster kick but I'm quite sure that most good Muay Thai guys can break your arm with their well conditioned shin. Something similar like:

. Kicks are very strong; it's not a good idea to go against a good kicker force against force. Against a bad one it doesn't realy matter. And body structure doesn't help with your bone intergrety. You can absorb most of the kicks power with your superior structure but you may stil break your arm. We mostly did cutting angle stuf with kicks. Not saying they were more realistic. Infact I had quite a few discussions with my instructor about kicks and solutions against them becouse they are relay very harder to dill with then against arms. If fighting against a good kicker ofcourse.

But Garn Sau is still a fine technique but it requires a lot of training , so don't think that it can't with stand a lot of heavy force because with a well trained practitioner it can .

Well I guess you could condition to take it but I wonder; with all this training/conditioning needed to handle a kick, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just do something totaly against WC and jump back for example-out of the guys range?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree concerning the Gan Sao problem with round house kicks...problem is most WC guys do not conditioning them selves like Muay Thai guys. A skilled MT guy will kick his shins upagainst a heavy bag, tires and a tree. Our guards need to be as hard as their legs. We need to use force against the wooden man to project this type of force. When you use gan sau you can not just place up there an wait to catch the kick. You have to smash the kick with the gan sau. Use force against the kick other wise your hands will be pushed back into your face an your hit. Arms should be conditioning of course. An proper use of power should be trained. You should also practice blocking hard roundhouses with others as well. This will harden your guards and your weak shins if you don't have previous conditioning!

There was a Wing Chun Sifu who spoke about kicks...I will share some of their sayings as well.

Well heel/stop kicks where one of the things I was refering to when I spoke abou things that work well in theory but not so much in practice(for me). At least when I spar good kickers. Imagine a guy who is a good kicker and his whole gameplay is distance and he knows how to keep it and use it to his benefit. Now when I'm facing a guy like that and I don't realy know if he's gonna throw a jab or a kick at me, I find it hard to "catch" his foot with my heel. But that may be a thing that I personaly suck at.

About hands against kicks; I was thought by my WC instructor that if you can help it you don't want to do that. And I must say I agree for most situations. For this exact techniques you speak of(if I understan which one you mean), I think this one is very popular with WT people. The one where you do a Gan sao and then go to a high tan sao or a biu tan? People like Leung Ting and Emin like to demonstrate it so that they catch the kick with the Gan and then throw the guy with the tan. Looks very cool But I think thats the exact technique the WT guy that was kicked in the head by a good kicker(the story I spoke of in some posts earlier) used. The problem is that if the kicker is good and you do that, the kick is gonna go threw to your head even if it was first directed to your mid area(you acctualy guide it higher). Allthough against most people(and kickers who get offbalanced quickly) it's gonna work. If you only use a Gan sao against a kick I would imagine too that you could get screwed against a good kicker. Especialy by some Muay Thaiers well conditioned shin. They have pretty powerful kicks. I acctualy saw a MT guy knock a guy out on the street with a kick to the head. Allthough kicks to the head are pretty rare on the street but are still something to consider!

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I agree concerning the Gan Sao problem with round house kicks...problem is most WC guys do not conditioning them selves like Muay Thai guys. A skilled MT guy will kick his shins upagainst a heavy bag, tires and a tree. Our guards need to be as hard as their legs. We need to use force against the wooden man to project this type of force. When you use gan sau you can not just place up there an wait to catch the kick. You have to smash the kick with the gan sau. Use force against the kick other wise your hands will be pushed back into your face an your hit. Arms should be conditioning of course. An proper use of power should be trained. You should also practice blocking hard roundhouses with others as well. This will harden your guards and your weak shins if you don't have previous conditioning!

There was a Wing Chun Sifu who spoke about kicks...I will share some of their sayings as well.

Yes, legs are a problem. As AMP-Ryu said, they have longer reach and are a lot stronger the hands. Especialy when used by a trained kicker.

Look, I'm not saying conditioning arms isn't necesery. I will not say it's a bad thing either or that it doesn't work. I would like to ask if it is the WC approach? As I interpret it this can't be more against WC principals. You use force against force, all so you want to condition yourself to take a conditioned strike. Ok, WC principals say nothing against conditioning but isn't trying to be stronger then your opponent against WC thought? Plus it doesn't solve anything. You'll never have the most conditioned bones or the hardest blocks/strikes. I thought WC was soppose to go against strenght with skill and understanding of angles and stronger force redirection?

Again I'm not saying these approaches are wrong. And I do muscle training, conditioning and stretching myself. But we're talking WC here. Arent we?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Execellent Post. Actually Wing Chun uses both External and Internal sides of combat. It uses both hard and soft...But if you through up a soft gan sao to a hard round house kick...instant break. I mean your soft arm will become a limb broken arm. The Gan Sau is offensive movement.

Please check out WC Kuit Kuen and the comments of WC sifu's

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm


http://www.springtimesong.com/wcseminar.htm

Sifu Wang Kiu said: "Against a roundhouse kick you cannot do a passive block. The kick will drive your hands into your face. You have to smash the kick. "

So when you distrupt and intercept the force. Then you can turn it off or uproot. For instance. You use Gan Sau to attack the round house kick or Pak sau to attack the gaurds with force. Gan Sau should be employed to punish the kickers leg. An make them wish they never kicked like that. Once you kick their leg cutting into the nerves in shin there stance will be disrupted. Making it harder for them to gain composer in that second. Before the foot retracts immediately go to tan sau, jut sau or simply dump them. Once you make contact trap the leg and redirect the force. The Deflection comes when you twist and rotate the wrist of that arms as your gan sau smashes the kick. If you have weak block your arm will get broken. You have to turn that force off.

Do this an tell me what you think. Have someone through multiple round houses at you. on monday. Block with soft blocks and block you want...

Then on tuesday use your arms to smash their kicks.

Tell me which one hurts your arms the most?


Other techniques against kicks
http://www.springtimesong.com/wckicking.htm

Dangers of weak gan sau with out conditioning...
Two students of Wong Shun Leung got their arms broken from roundhouse kicks when they tried to apply a Gan sau in a tournament held in Japan.

Yes, legs are a problem. As AMP-Ryu said, they have longer reach and are a lot stronger the hands. Especialy when used by a trained kicker.

Look, I'm not saying conditioning arms isn't necesery. I will not say it's a bad thing either or that it doesn't work. I would like to ask if it is the WC approach? As I interpret it this can't be more against WC principals. You use force against force, all so you want to condition yourself to take a conditioned strike. Ok, WC principals say nothing against conditioning but isn't trying to be stronger then your opponent against WC thought? Plus it doesn't solve anything. You'll never have the most conditioned bones or the hardest blocks/strikes. I thought WC was soppose to go against strenght with skill and understanding of angles and stronger force redirection?

Again I'm not saying these approaches are wrong. And I do muscle training, conditioning and stretching myself. But we're talking WC here. Arent we?

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Execellent Post. Actually Wing Chun uses both External and Internal sides of combat. It uses both hard and soft...But if you through up a soft gan sao to a hard round house kick...instant break. I mean your soft arm will become a limb broken arm. The Gan Sau is offensive movement.

Please check out WC Kuit Kuen and the comments of WC sifu's

I think I read threw all those maxims before. Thanks anyway! I agree that WC is both internal/external and soft/hard. Allthough I don't belive WC goes hard against hard. I thought it teaches to go soft against hard and hard against soft!

And I wasn't talking about soft gan or hard gan, I was talking about that to me this particular technique looks like a clash and in a clash a stronger bone will win. Probably it works agains most people but I feel very strong about that if you do this against a competant kicker it can't end good for your arm(even if you do stop his kick from hitting the intended target).

Do this an tell me what you think. Have someone through multiple round houses at you. on monday. Block with soft blocks and block you want...

Then on tuesday use your arms to smash their kicks.

Tell me which one hurts your arms the most?

Ok, I will not just dismiss what you say and will actualy try this out the next time I'll meet with my training buddies! I'll ask them to hit with medium strength and then they'll slowly increase. But I must say I have a bad feeling about this Even about the smashing-Gan one...

Dangers of weak gan sau with out conditioning...
Two students of Wong Shun Leung got their arms broken from roundhouse kicks when they tried to apply a Gan sau in a tournament held in Japan.

This kind of prooves what I've been saying. Plus the way I interpret WC is that its techniques should work without any conditioning. I think WC techniques when done correctly should work for a skinny women too, not just for people who have devoted there lives to kung fu and conditioning.

I thought that was the point of WC? Am I the only one that feels this way?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

If someone throws a punch at you tan sau bong sau or pak sau?

Would it be wrong to punch the arm coming at you. Before the fist makes contact why not punch their arm. Is it wrong to punch someone in the guards? Why not punch their hand or fist they are holding up...

What about punishment techniques. I understand what your saying...an your right...Wing Chun does use soft force against hard force. But sometimes you can use soft force concealed in hard. But as for the stronger arm scenario. I gurantee you if all you practice is form and soft arm drills with a partner the minute someone bangs your arms your going into total shock. You will not be able to handle the pressure. You need to adapt. There are numerous stories I read about wing chun masters who use techniques that cause damage. Like one guy use gum sau on a kickers leg. The result was the kicker knee was broken. How did the Sifu do this. He practices iron palm techniques. So dropping down force on the knee broke the kickers leg.

If your practicing Wing Chun an are willing to conditioning your body...be it stamina, strength, flexibilty, agility etc that someone who has harness all these skills will whoop yo head in.

You should concentrate on increasing
Timing
balance
root
strength
power
accuracy
speed
flexibilty

along with some others I did not mention...If two people have equal skills the winner will be who ever is stronger. If someone is stronger but has less skills then the most skilled guy will win. But you must be aware that being strong fast or agile will allow you have an advantage. You can be anyone to start learning WC. But just because your out of shape and have no breath doesn't mean you will remain that way. You should progress and get better...

Sifu Wang Kiu said: "Against a roundhouse kick you cannot do a passive block. The kick will drive your hands into your face. You have to smash the kick. "

This is what this Sifu said...I can find numerous post which says to use force. Especially against a weaker opponent. You should redirect and deflect but also smashing your opponents structure is not bad either...use both soft and hard.

But your right Wing Chun is about going soft against hard. But you can also use hard techniques against attacks as well. But you don't try to wrestle your opponent or force a trap...

I think I read threw all those maxims before. Thanks anyway! I agree that WC is both internal/external and soft/hard. Allthough I don't belive WC goes hard against hard. I thought it teaches to go soft against hard and hard against soft!

And I wasn't talking about soft gan or hard gan, I was talking about that to me this particular technique looks like a clash and in a clash a stronger bone will win. Probably it works agains most people but I feel very strong about that if you do this against a competant kicker it can't end good for your arm(even if you do stop his kick from hitting the intended target).



Ok, I will not just dismiss what you say and will actualy try this out the next time I'll meet with my training buddies! I'll ask them to hit with medium strength and then they'll slowly increase. But I must say I have a bad feeling about this Even about the smashing-Gan one...



This kind of prooves what I've been saying. Plus the way I interpret WC is that its techniques should work without any conditioning. I think WC techniques when done correctly should work for a skinny women too, not just for people who have devoted there lives to kung fu and conditioning.

I thought that was the point of WC? Am I the only one that feels this way?