How Much Do You Train?

[mook jong man]

Its not a matter of conditioning the arms for Garn Sau it is a matter of skill , the reason it took me about a year and all the bruises was because my timing was off and I wasn't spreading the force up my arm properly .

I don't believe you understand the technique , I am talking about standing there and as the kick comes in you are pivoting into the kick , spreading the force over your whole arm , the bad thing about it is that your timing has to be perfect and as you make contact you have to continue pivoting to absorb the force .

The problem I have with it is that you have to wait for the person to initiate the kick and get the timing perfect instead of initiating your own attack . As I said before I would prefer to use a Seung Bong with a Wing Chun side kick or just burst into them with a charging knee a move that can cover about 2 and a half metres .

If he is doing a jumping kick and he is in the air then that is a committed movement and I might just decide to move out of the way or I could move in with a double palm strike a very powerful move and knock him out of the sky .

You seem to be under the impression that I have only taught newbies , a large percentage of people I have taught have been people from other arts that for what ever reason thought that what ever they were learning before was'nt working for them so they came to us , and yes I've even taught a Thai boxer and TKD people , there was something in Wing Chun that appealed to these peoples sense of logic .

Against a Thai boxer of course I'm not going to test my Garn Sau I'm not retarded those guys practice round kicks as much as we practice chain punches , he will only get one chance to kick me before I'm sticking to him like white on rice , and if he manages to get away from me to create space I will follow him with chain kicking specifically low heel kicks to shin and knees and hook kicks to thighs .

As for the people who got their arms broken in a tournament , how do we even know how experienced they were , even if they did come from a Wong Shun Leung School they might not have trained for very long .

I could train at a Wong Shun Leung school for two weeks and enter a tournament and get the crap beaten out of me , so what , it doesn't mean his school is crap or teaches crap techniques it just means that I am crap and couldn't apply the techniques properly .

In my time I have met Wing Chun practitioners who couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag , on the other hand I have met practitioners who would rip your head off and piss down your neck . All of this stuff about this versus that its all hypothetical , remember always it is the singer not the song .

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Would it be wrong to punch the arm coming at you. Before the fist makes contact why not punch their arm. Is it wrong to punch someone in the guards? Why not punch their hand or fist they are holding up...

What about punishment techniques. I understand what your saying...an your right...Wing Chun does use soft force against hard force. But sometimes you can use soft force concealed in hard. But as for the stronger arm scenario. I gurantee you if all you practice is form and soft arm drills with a partner the minute someone bangs your arms your going into total shock. You will not be able to handle the pressure. You need to adapt. There are numerous stories I read about wing chun masters who use techniques that cause damage. Like one guy use gum sau on a kickers leg. The result was the kicker knee was broken. How did the Sifu do this. He practices iron palm techniques. So dropping down force on the knee broke the kickers leg.

You can do whatever you want. I would do whatever I felt like was apropriate in a fight. But that was not my point. My point was that this technique(as I understand it) is not the most WC response to the situation and it wouldn't work for a weak person fighting a guy with superior atributes. I believe that every WC techniques should at least in theory work against a guy with superior atributes if done correctly. This technique we're talking about has no chance if done by a weak guy fighting Crocop. But being WC, at least in theory, a techniques should be able to work against such a guy. And becouse you talk so much about conditioning I feel thats like preparing for a clash. Thats why we mostly used half intercepting half cutting motions against round attacks. Neither intercepting neither fully cutting. Mostly at 45 or more degrees to the kick. It would be hard for me to explain what we did as none of the movement have I seen in any other form on youtube, or done by any other WC guy plus I don't know the names. Also I dound out in another thread that even simple techniques are hard to explain on a forum.

Again, I'm not saying these approaches are wrong. Acctualy I honestly believe that no approach is wrong if it works. But if it is truly according to WC thats another story.

But as for the stronger arm scenario. I gurantee you if all you practice is form and soft arm drills with a partner the minute someone bangs your arms your going into total shock. You will not be able to handle the pressure. You need to adapt. There are numerous stories I read about wing chun masters who use techniques that cause damage. Like one guy use gum sau on a kickers leg. The result was the kicker knee was broken. How did the Sifu do this. He practices iron palm techniques. So dropping down force on the knee broke the kickers leg.

I get the feeling that either I'm doing a poor job at explaining(which is very plausible as I'm not a very good rhetoric) or you're not reading my posts. I agree with you! And no, all I practice isn't soft drills and forms. I practice alot of stuff(as I mentioned before). Alot of stuff thats got to do with fighting but nothing with WC. But again, thats not the point! The point/the question was: is this response true to WC? Not that it's wrong or wouldn't work on most people.

Sifu Wang Kiu said: "Against a roundhouse kick you cannot do a passive block. The kick will drive your hands into your face. You have to smash the kick. "

True, but smashing the kick isn't the answer either in my opinion. And if even if GM Ip Man says something does that neceserely make it true? If you understand it and you agree with it it's all it matters. If you don't... Well than either you can't for whatever reason or the technique is perhaps not so perfect?

Its not a matter of conditioning the arms for Garn Sau it is a matter of skill , the reason it took me about a year and all the bruises was because my timing was off and I wasn't spreading the force up my arm properly .

I don't believe you understand the technique , I am talking about standing there and as the kick comes in you are pivoting into the kick , spreading the force over your whole arm , the bad thing about it is that your timing has to be perfect and as you make contact you have to continue pivoting to absorb the force .

That is very possible. Again, techniques realy are hard to explain over the forum. I would like to ask you the thing I said to Yoshi; does you're version of the technique have a theoretical chance of succeeding when done correctly by a weak women pratitioner against a Crocop type of roundhouse kick?

You seem to be under the impression that I have only taught newbies , a large percentage of people I have taught have been people from other arts that for what ever reason thought that what ever they were learning before was'nt working for them so they came to us , and yes I've even taught a Thai boxer and TKD people , there was something in Wing Chun that appealed to these peoples sense of logic .

Against a Thai boxer of course I'm not going to test my Garn Sau I'm not retarded those guys practice round kicks as much as we practice chain punches , he will only get one chance to kick me before I'm sticking to him like white on rice , and if he manages to get away from me to create space I will follow him with chain kicking specifically low heel kicks to shin and knees and hook kicks to thighs .

This seems to be getting rather personal. Look I am honestly not under the impresion that you haven't thought good/great people, neither did I sudgest it. So(and I'm saying this with no cynism or sarcasm at all) you're saying that technique works against those Muay Thai/TKD student of yours when they kick you realisticly? If you're answer is yes, then I must be missing something and will seriously explore this technique!

Against a Thai boxer of course I'm not going to test my Garn Sau I'm not retarded those guys practice round kicks as much as we practice chain punches , he will only get one chance to kick me before I'm sticking to him like white on rice , and if he manages to get away from me to create space I will follow him with chain kicking specifically low heel kicks to shin and knees and hook kicks to thighs .

Ok, sorry. I see you answered that allready Well that was all I wanted to say. That was my point. No offence, realy! Didn't mean to say your kung fu sucks or something like that.

As for the people who got their arms broken in a tournament , how do we even know how experienced they were , even if they did come from a Wong Shun Leung School they might not have trained for very long .

I could train at a Wong Shun Leung school for two weeks and enter a tournament and get the crap beaten out of me , so what , it doesn't mean his school is crap or teaches crap techniques it just means that I am crap and couldn't apply the techniques properly

Thats very true.

In my time I have met Wing Chun practitioners who couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag , on the other hand I have met practitioners who would rip your head off and piss down your neck . All of this stuff about this versus that its all hypothetical , remember always it is the singer not the song .

I agree. Especialy with the last statement about the singer and the song. Thats one of the points I wanted to make in this posts(if you read them). And yes this is very hypothetical. And in realyity/sparring fighting I'm not this picky, but I think it would be well to define what techniques are WC and what aren't. Instead one yould go practice JKD with an emphasis on WC.

 

[Si-Je]

Thank you Mook Jong Man about Garn sau.
I was freaking out there for a minute! No conditioning of the arms! No! No! No!
You'll NEVER get your arms in condition to withstand a conditioned leg!
Garn Sau is just another deflection. You must contine to move forward into the opponent's leg. your gan sau rides up the leg as it turns into tan sau, it's tan sau at the end that puts them on their butt.
No force, no contitioning. forward pressure, forward movement, 100% deflection. If you stop or hesitate you will get hurt.
I wouldn't recomend accompaning it with a heel kick to the core of the opponent simply because this would stop your forward movement, or at least lessen it. Plus it would take longer, you have to get into the inside of that roundhouse kick fast.

It is better used as it comes and not trying to force it or anticipate the kick to use right off the bat in applicaiton or sparring. It is kinda like an "oh ****" move, being that if your caught off guard, or faked out and are already stepping into the attacker and they kick for your head when you didn't forsee that, then it's best to use garn sau. If you try to force it and use it when it's just "not there" it'll hurt.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thanks Si Je! I think I understand where you guys are coming from better now!

I wouldn't recomend accompaning it with a heel kick to the core of the opponent simply because this would stop your forward movement, or at least lessen it. Plus it would take longer, you have to get into the inside of that roundhouse kick fast.

Yea that was probably the main problem in that WT guys approach...

 

[mook jong man]

Thank you Mook Jong Man about Garn sau.
I was freaking out there for a minute! No conditioning of the arms! No! No! No!
You'll NEVER get your arms in condition to withstand a conditioned leg!
Garn Sau is just another deflection. You must contine to move forward into the opponent's leg. your gan sau rides up the leg as it turns into tan sau, it's tan sau at the end that puts them on their butt.
No force, no contitioning. forward pressure, forward movement, 100% deflection. If you stop or hesitate you will get hurt.
I wouldn't recomend accompaning it with a heel kick to the core of the opponent simply because this would stop your forward movement, or at least lessen it. Plus it would take longer, you have to get into the inside of that roundhouse kick fast.

It is better used as it comes and not trying to force it or anticipate the kick to use right off the bat in applicaiton or sparring. It is kinda like an "oh ****" move, being that if your caught off guard, or faked out and are already stepping into the attacker and they kick for your head when you didn't forsee that, then it's best to use garn sau. If you try to force it and use it when it's just "not there" it'll hurt.

Yes , thats what I meant really , it is almost like a flinch response , it would be used when you see something coming to the side of the head and you havent got time to get your leg up or do anything else.

As for the scenario of a small woman trying to use a Garn Sau against one of Cro Cops kicks , we have to apply commonsense here , even if she was sufficiently skilled the discrepancy in size , weight and strength would be too great .

It would be like standing there waiting for someone to swing a baseball bat at your head , she would be better off moving in close to where the speed of the attacking leg is not so great .

In my opinion highly skilled fighters aren't out on the streets and in the pubs picking fights anyway , they know what they are capable of and do all their fighting at training and in the ring .

The ones you see on the streets starting trouble are the Wannabees and the Try Hards .

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thats true. I agree. But I think we all understand where we're coming from better. I think we agree/look at things the same.

 

[Si-Je]

When I do garn sau on Sifu I incorporate the elbow strike to the chest with the other arm. Like Sifu Fung does alot in his videos and demos. Where you step into the guy and hit them with same pressure of wrist, forearm, and elbow. (can't think of what it's called)
This allows me to "attack" the weight and mass of Sifu hubbie to keep me from collapsing, getting knocked over, and adding the extra forward force needed on a drastically larger opponent.

Like what the gal does in the Sifu Fun women's self defense here at 36 seconds.

As you flow from gon sau to tan sau, you take the other arm and elbow the chest like she does here.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay if I offended you Mook Jong I am sorry thats my intent. I had to remember that I learn too versions of applications. With Yuen Kay San version there is both hard and soft techniques. I typically use what techniques are easier for me. Some of harder techniques work better on stronger opponents because I am smaller. Its harder to explain. Some of hard techniques I would never use against weak opponent because It would be too much force and easy for them to redirect me. But a stronger opponent I found that banging their arms tapping the points between their hard muscles makes their arms drop right away. I use both direction,deflection and cutting nerves techniques. Different people use different techniques. Sum Nung was also known as iron arms. Because he was conditioning that way. Yuen Kay San master the Iron Sand Palm so he condition his arms and hands to be hard. Although he only use his palms hard and his arms he merely deflected and reidrected his bigger opponents mostly.

I totally agree with you. I just I am coming into the knowledge alot of what i learn many WC people do not know about or practice as well. Many of the things you do we also do. But in addition to that we also hard techniques. Now as for strategy against a smaller opponent I usually go down the middle with force against bigger opponent I usually go around them flank one of their sides an trap and attack. of course in both situtations I use a combination of hard and soft entry techniques. I understand what you guys are talking about. But the problem I have is most of people I spar with understand the soft side. So using soft technique against 350lb 6 foot 2 guy isnt going to work. But if Pak his guards down an make him tense up when he feels a hard shock going through his arms forces him to lock up. Then i can slide through his guards an strike or simple turn his force off with a soft technique while punching.

But I am not getting personal. I am sorry if anyone taking it that way.

I am not speaking on soft side in this thread because I wanted to know does anyone practice the hard side...There are Wc sifu's who use exclusively hard techniques and there are some who use exclusively soft techniques. My Sifu uses exclusively soft techniques and his Sihing uses exclusively hard. But now the sihing is startiung to use more soft techniques. I will share some more info I have found from other sifu's from other lineages later...

But just because a technique is done differently I think it will still be WC...as long as it seeks to bridge or destroy the bridge, attack and defend the center line, move on linear paths, posseses encomnomy of emotion, and has the three terrors of WC!

Thats a WC art if it has these qualities?

Wouldn't you agree?

When I do garn sau on Sifu I incorporate the elbow strike to the chest with the other arm. Like Sifu Fung does alot in his videos and demos. Where you step into the guy and hit them with same pressure of wrist, forearm, and elbow. (can't think of what it's called)
This allows me to "attack" the weight and mass of Sifu hubbie to keep me from collapsing, getting knocked over, and adding the extra forward force needed on a drastically larger opponent.

Like what the gal does in the Sifu Fun women's self defense here at 36 seconds.

As you flow from gon sau to tan sau, you take the other arm and elbow the chest like she does here.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

But just because a technique is done differently I think it will still be WC...as long as it seeks to bridge or destroy the bridge, attack and defend the center line, move on linear paths, posseses encomnomy of emotion, and has the three terrors of WC!

Thats a WC art if it has these qualities?

Wouldn't you agree?

I personaly wouldn't. But thats just my opinion. But if that is how you define WC then I realy don't understand how you see Sysstema and WC as oranges and apples. If thats how you see wc, then Systema is WC. Well, I don't know about Fook Sao but I'm sure I've seen them do Tan Saos and Bong Saos multiple times!

 

[mook jong man]

When I do garn sau on Sifu I incorporate the elbow strike to the chest with the other arm. Like Sifu Fung does alot in his videos and demos. Where you step into the guy and hit them with same pressure of wrist, forearm, and elbow. (can't think of what it's called)
This allows me to "attack" the weight and mass of Sifu hubbie to keep me from collapsing, getting knocked over, and adding the extra forward force needed on a drastically larger opponent.

Like what the gal does in the Sifu Fun women's self defense here at 36 seconds.

As you flow from gon sau to tan sau, you take the other arm and elbow the chest like she does here.

Si-Je we called that technique " The Fail Safe Armgrab Counter " it is used against some one who has grabbed you in a cross arm grab and is pulling you in , you resist at first so he grabs harder .

Then you go with his force and collapse your arm into a elbow strike to the sternum . IF it is a same side armgrab then you move in with your Tan Sau and a palm strike to face or chest .

I apologise to everybody for sounding a bit irritable but in my defence I am on a new anti anxiety drug that is having some side effects and I will just have to ride them out until I get used to it .

Sorry if I offended anyone and may we continue to learn from each other and maybe have a few laughs along the way .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

If someone arms couldn't lift up pass their chest. So they could punch. Would it be wrong for them kick high?

Would doing high kicks if thats your only option would it not be WC?

I personaly wouldn't. But thats just my opinion. But if that is how you define WC then I realy don't understand how you see Sysstema and WC as oranges and apples. If thats how you see wc, then Systema is WC. Well, I don't know about Fook Sao but I'm sure I've seen them do Tan Saos and Bong Saos multiple times!

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Si-Je we called that technique " The Fail Safe Armgrab Counter " it is used against some one who has grabbed you in a cross arm grab and is pulling you in , you resist at first so he grabs harder .

Then you go with his force and collapse your arm into a elbow strike to the sternum . IF it is a same side armgrab then you move in with your Tan Sau and a palm strike to face or chest .

I apologise to everybody for sounding a bit irritable but in my defence I am on a new anti anxiety drug that is having some side effects and I will just have to ride them out until I get used to it .

Sorry if I offended anyone and may we continue to learn from each other and maybe have a few laughs along the way .

Ha, interesting. I was thinking that that kind of technique would be kind of overcommited;you could walk stright into a punch, but now that you explain it that way it actualy makes sense. Something like the second technique you mention would be my first choice too. Will have to try the technique Si-Je posted too.

I see how you could have seen my doubting as a provocation. The thing is(and the reason why I say to Yoshi WC is not just 3terrors, straight line attacks, bridgin etc.,) it is a very complex art. And without you seeing the energies involved in the technique you can't realy understand the technique. To explain what I mean: I feel that WC techniques done with none WC energies aren't neceserely WC. Techniques of WC are just some smart, strong, efficient structures but I feel the escence of WC is in its application. Something interesting: I can find all of the boxing moves, positions, attacks etc., in the 3 empty-hand WC forms. And sometimes, a "boxing" response, I feel is even the most WC response to the situation. Allthough I think boxing is quite diffrent from WC in its approach to fighting. Do you follow what I'm saying? Hope I explained well what I mean.

If someone arms couldn't lift up pass their chest. So they could punch. Would it be wrong for them kick high?

Would doing high kicks if thats your only option would it not be WC?

Sure, I belive it would be. But if your hands can be lift up pass your chest, then a highkick, I believe, wouldn't be WC. But I also feel that in anycase(you can or cannot lift your hands up to your chest), if you can deliver a highkick to the head and not getting hurt in the process yourself, it is a good thing. Not neceserely WC, but it could end a fight even faster/with less movements if done in a right situtaion in a right moment.

 

[Si-Je]

Mook Jong, we practice the cross wrist grab defense with the elbow to the sternum too. I just added the elbow to garn sau kinda by accident.
When I was first learning garn sau defending against a roundhouse kick, the guys I was working with were really really big. (to me.! lol!) And as you come in with garn sau so close to their chest I actually smacked face first into their chest a couple of times. Ouch!
So, the elbow started popping up to ensure I keep MY space as I take away theirs.
So garn sau for me became: Garn sau, stepping in with raising tan sau, at the same time rolling to the elbow with the free hand. The elbow coupled with the raising tan sau really makes them fly backwards, and keeps my face from smashing into their chest. lol!
Besides, after you do the raising tan sau you kinda have the other arm just hanging out there. You can't always punch them with it because their already falling back or down, so the elbow just naturally pops up into that position for me. Just a weird Si-Je thing.

Oh Mook! I broke a VERY large student's structure today just like that chi guy in Sifu Fungs school videos! Tony Psaila. I've been watching those and focusing more on my chi lately.
He's about 6ft. and 290lbs, and I was showing him to relax as he latches and talking about breaking the opponent's structure, then I just kinda chopped him in the waist (really lazy and floppy like) and it kinda crumpled him downward like his knees buckled and forced him back about two steps. So cool! It really freaked him out too. (I had to play all cool like I just knew that would happen like that all along. lol! no, really, I laughed and told him that was the first time I'd ever done that! )
What's even more amazing, is that I was able to do it again and again. Not something I'm usually able to do when I first get a new WC technique. It usually comes, and then promptly flys away again only to return sporatically. (much to the consternation of my Sifu. lol!) But, this was actually consistant. Woot! Chi UP people! This is the coolest stuff in WC/WT!

 

[mook jong man]

Mook Jong, we practice the cross wrist grab defense with the elbow to the sternum too. I just added the elbow to garn sau kinda by accident.
When I was first learning garn sau defending against a roundhouse kick, the guys I was working with were really really big. (to me.! lol!) And as you come in with garn sau so close to their chest I actually smacked face first into their chest a couple of times. Ouch!
So, the elbow started popping up to ensure I keep MY space as I take away theirs.
So garn sau for me became: Garn sau, stepping in with raising tan sau, at the same time rolling to the elbow with the free hand. The elbow coupled with the raising tan sau really makes them fly backwards, and keeps my face from smashing into their chest. lol!
Besides, after you do the raising tan sau you kinda have the other arm just hanging out there. You can't always punch them with it because their already falling back or down, so the elbow just naturally pops up into that position for me. Just a weird Si-Je thing.

Oh Mook! I broke a VERY large student's structure today just like that chi guy in Sifu Fungs school videos! Tony Psaila. I've been watching those and focusing more on my chi lately.
He's about 6ft. and 290lbs, and I was showing him to relax as he latches and talking about breaking the opponent's structure, then I just kinda chopped him in the waist (really lazy and floppy like) and it kinda crumpled him downward like his knees buckled and forced him back about two steps. So cool! It really freaked him out too. (I had to play all cool like I just knew that would happen like that all along. lol! no, really, I laughed and told him that was the first time I'd ever done that! )
What's even more amazing, is that I was able to do it again and again. Not something I'm usually able to do when I first get a new WC technique. It usually comes, and then promptly flys away again only to return sporatically. (much to the consternation of my Sifu. lol!) But, this was actually consistant. Woot! Chi UP people! This is the coolest stuff in WC/WT!

Thats really good it sounds like you are starting to be able generate that relaxed type of power that we are looking for , a type of power that does come more easily to the ladies because of their lack of musculature .

I am very sorry that you don't have more women students Si -Je as you would have to be one of the most passionate Wing Chun people I have ever heard of and that enthusiasm woud be passed on to your students .

Another technique I just remembered against a round house kick when you are in close instead of doing a cross leg hook kick type of leg deflection , you do a knee strike into their inner thigh , same action as the hook kick .

But just close the angle in your leg so that the foot is in line with your knee and strike with the point of the knee into the soft part of the inner thigh .
If he's still standing after that then carry on with the usual WC side kick to supporting leg.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Two Questions. If I am getting pumpeled in the face. An I shoot for the guys legs an drop him to the floor an mount him to chain punch his face...is that WC?

Also if someone has me in grab from behind. Like their arms around me with the wrist and hand interlocking infront of me. Would it be a wing chun for me to bend over. Grab their feet or foot an try to pull it between my legs up in the air. Causing them to let go and fall backwards.

Ha, interesting. I was thinking that that kind of technique would be kind of overcommited;you could walk stright into a punch, but now that you explain it that way it actualy makes sense. Something like the second technique you mention would be my first choice too. Will have to try the technique Si-Je posted too.

I see how you could have seen my doubting as a provocation. The thing is(and the reason why I say to Yoshi WC is not just 3terrors, straight line attacks, bridgin etc.,) it is a very complex art. And without you seeing the energies involved in the technique you can't realy understand the technique. To explain what I mean: I feel that WC techniques done with none WC energies aren't neceserely WC. Techniques of WC are just some smart, strong, efficient structures but I feel the escence of WC is in its application. Something interesting: I can find all of the boxing moves, positions, attacks etc., in the 3 empty-hand WC forms. And sometimes, a "boxing" response, I feel is even the most WC response to the situation. Allthough I think boxing is quite diffrent from WC in its approach to fighting. Do you follow what I'm saying? Hope I explained well what I mean.



Sure, I belive it would be. But if your hands can be lift up pass your chest, then a highkick, I believe, wouldn't be WC. But I also feel that in anycase(you can or cannot lift your hands up to your chest), if you can deliver a highkick to the head and not getting hurt in the process yourself, it is a good thing. Not neceserely WC, but it could end a fight even faster/with less movements if done in a right situtaion in a right moment.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Yoshi, what is the point of this questions? Are you trying to make a point and I don't see it? Besides do you rely care if I consider it WC or not? I'm sure that after 15 years of training WC you have formed your own opinion on what is and what isn't WC.

But eventho I don't know what you're trying to achieve with this questions I will humor you and answer. In my opinion, no that wouldn't be WC. No in both cases. I say so becouse in both cases I feel there would be a reaction more sutible according to WC principals-less movement used, less energy, less comitment, more direct etc.

I think if you're getting pumpled in the face you should take care of those punches and WC tells you how to do that. Besides just droping down to go for a takedown while you're being attacked exposes you to all kind of difrent attacks in my opinion. Some even more dangerous than punches to the face; you risk getting a knee to the face, elbows/punches to the neck. And as for me personaly I would avoid the ground if I can; I feel I can defend myself better on the feet then on the ground(even tho I have some groundfighting training). Plus I think many people have established here, that on the ground, you are more vulnurable to being kicked by other potential attackers/friends of the guy you took to the ground.

If somebody grabs me from behind I like to go for the balls, heabutts, knee kicks... All of this I feel is more true to WC.

As I said I define WC as something very specific and very hard to achieve. But thats my personaly thing. Similar like diffrent people define what is fun for them diffrently. Don't be too focused on it. I would like to know what your point is tho...

And some questions for you:
Yoshi, if I do Systema techniques on a guy, is that WC? What about if I use BJJ or if I use boxing?

How do you define WC?

Would you say that your examples are WC? Why?

If I use chainpunching, tan, bong, fook, spinkicks, jumpkicks, haymakers am I doing WC?

 

[Si-Je]

Two Questions. If I am getting pumpeled in the face. An I shoot for the guys legs an drop him to the floor an mount him to chain punch his face...is that WC?

Also if someone has me in grab from behind. Like their arms around me with the wrist and hand interlocking infront of me. Would it be a wing chun for me to bend over. Grab their feet or foot an try to pull it between my legs up in the air. Causing them to let go and fall backwards.

I'm not sure about the first one being WC, but it seems it would be a hybrid. The shoot in could be something like chinese wrestling, etc.. and the last part of it is definate WT anti-grappling. Although many WT/WC practitioners don't concider anti-grappling to be "pure" WT.

The second one: isn't that a move in Bui Gee? Where you bend over and reach between your legs and come back up? I've seen that in a few versions of Bui Gee.
So, yeah, that would and could be WT/WC.

 

[Si-Je]

Oh, and a good one for defending a rear bear hug with your arms pinned: simoltaneously drop your center of gravity (squat) as you double dai sau, pivot when you get some "elbow" room, and elbow then in the ribs, continue to turn with the elbow and face the opponent to chainpunch out.

Love that move.

 

[mook jong man]

Si - Je is correct about the bending over movement in Bil Gee , I was always told that one of the applications is to reach down and grab your opponents leg and pull him off balance .

That's only if all your other techniques like counter bear hug movements , stamping on the foot , raking the edge of your foot down their shin , rear elbow strike etc have been used to no avail .

Another application I heard of is when you have to get up off the ground , you always bring your hands up way over your head first as in the form this is to guard your head against a strike or an object like a bottle that maybe about to come crashing down on your head. The hands come up first and the head and rest of the body follow .

 

[mook jong man]

Now that I think about it one of our standard techniques against a bear hug from behind is actually from the Bil Gee form . I have never realised it before because it is taught pretty early on in the curriculum to grade two when they have learnt the rudiments of pivoting .

• You are grabbed in rear bear hug , upper arms are pinned.
• First thing you do is bring one hand up to latch over his hands and keep them pinned so he can't bring them up to choke you.
• Then drop your weight down and stamp on his foot with your heel.
• Next you have to do three moves simultaneously , as you start to pivot bring the arm up that is controlling his hands into a horizontal elbow strike position , just as though you were going to elbow strike some one in the face with a elbow while pivoting , make sure you still keep his hands pinned.
• Continue to pivot around with your elbow pointing horizontal , then as you get to the end of your pivot , fire a rear elbow strike into him with your spare hand .
• If this doesn't break his grip , immediately pivot back around to the other side and rear elbow strike with your other hand .
• My particular favourite is to elbow strike and then palm slap the groin with the same hand.
• Just forgetting the initial stamp kick on the attackers foot for a moment which will certainly distract him and keep his nervous system occupied for a little while .
• The reason it works is because the attacker is taken slightly off balance when you drop your weight down. Then he is taken off balance again when you bring one of your arms up as this raises his arms on one side , while you are pivoting with the mass of your whole body and in turn opens his body up and gives you space to do a rear elbow strike .
• In fact I have seen high level instructors throw people off with the force of their pivot and nothing else.
• If you can visualise the technique you can see that it is straight out of Bil Gee with the pivoting elbow strikes from side to side and the spare hand returning to a chambered position which is actually a rear elbow strike application as well .