How many Kenpo 10th degrees?

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
In my opinion .... Yes, but that is just MY opinion.



I guess Billy you have a lot on your mind, these days. But if you want true clarity in quoting me...... then do it right and completely.

I told you I saw Mr. Parker "about" 3 to 4 times a year some years and more on others. He was in Arizona for seminars about 2 times a year then I went to Pasadena as often as possible or out of state to where he was teaching.

What you didn't state was that this was consistent over a period of 12 + years, and I also told you we talked on the phone at least 2 to 3 times a week, not to mention other times that I didn't outline for you in great detail, had I known you were going to quote me verbatim I would have taken more care to even give dates and times.

Keep in mind ....... you know what you know or what I have shared with you ....... not everything I know and from whom I had personal experiences or contact with.

So, what do you think is the case? It could only be one of three things:

1. Mr. Trejo is lying.

2. Mr. Trejo is not clearly remembering what he witnessed?

3. Mike Pick brain washed Mr. Trejo.

 

[webpage20022003]

Originally posted by nightingale8472


"I looked at what others have done for the martial arts, and what I've done for the martial arts, and adjusted my rank accordingly."

no offense to you or anybody else, you mean self-promoting ?

 

[kenpo3631]

Are you going to call Frank Trejo (A senior in Kenpo who practically lived at the Pasadena Studio for decades) a liar???

In a interview I did with Mr. Trejo in 1991, he told me he did actually live in the studio at one time.

on a different note...

Mr. Conatser, I have never met you and spoke breifly to you once. You seem like a generally good person but like Billy stated;

Does that mean that Mr. Conatser is wong?
No. It just means that to his prior knowlege, Mr. Pick was not a seventh.

Does that mean that he must accept Mr. Trejo's recollection as the truth?
No. I don't think he does, that's between him, Mr. Trejo, and other various members of the Kenpo community.

Just because you recollect something and it is different doesn't mean it is necessarily correct. From what I know, Mr. Trejo taught in and managed the Pasadena Studio for years, don't you think he might have been privy to more information than you? He was like Mr. Parker's adopted son, I have heard numerous prominent kenpoists say this.

I saw Mr. Parker "about" 3 to 4 times a year some years and more on others. He was in Arizona for seminars about 2 times a year then I went to Pasadena as often as possible or out of state to where he was teaching.

this was consistent over a period of 12 + years, and I also told you we talked on the phone at least 2 to 3 times a week, not to mention other times that I didn't outline for you in great detail

How often did Mr. Trejo see and speak with Mr. Parker? Could it have been more than you?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, as you have made perfectly clear, however what you perceive as fact may not necessarily be so. Besides like your quote says...Time will either promote you or expose you. If that is true, time will take care of Mr Pick now, won't it?


:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by webpage20022003
no offense to you or anybody else, you mean self-promoting ?

Well, from what I've heard, that's exactly what Mr. Parker did. I've also heard that it wasn't something anyone argued with him about. But I wasn't there.

 

[Goldendragon7]

:rofl:

 

[Marcus Buonfiglio]

I began my study of Kenpo (Tracy System) in early 1980 with John Sepulveda. Several years later we switched to the IKKA and I was introduced to Larry Tatum as he was the one that would come in and do seminars at the school. It was he who was the Senior Examiner at my Black Belt promotion. Shortly after my black belt test Mr. Tatum stopped coming around and we were introduced to Michael Pick. At the time of introduction I noticed that he wore no stripes on his belt and his belt was much frayed and almost white from being tied so much. My instructor (Sepulveda) at that time held the rank of 3rd Black. As I progressed in my training we had Mr. Parker teach seminars four times a year, twice at our Santa Clara location and twice in Sacramento at Bob Lyles’ school. Most of the time but not always, when Parker would show up, Pick was with him. When everyone lined up to bow in at a Parker seminar, Pick was the first in line. All others lined up to his left. It was well known at the time and acknowledged that Pick was the senior in rank to all of those in attendance (Dian Tanaka 5th , Bob Lyles 5th , John Sepulveda 5th, Clarence Craig 3rd , Andre Simms 3rd , Vinton Koklitch 3rd , Craig McCoy 6th , etc.) with Parker obviously being senior to Pick. When Parker or Pick would conduct a seminar, those people that were of senior rank to me (listed above) were in attendance participating, not helping conduct. When I was promoted to Second black in Auburn Ca. at a seminar hosted by Andre Simms, Parker and Pick were there. When I was promoted to Third Black at Sepulveda’s school in 1990, Parker and Pick were there. It was my experience that Parker always sat in the center with Pick in the seat reserved for the next senior in rank. All others then sat accordingly with Sepulveda running the test. Pick’s rank or position was never questioned or disputed. While Parker was alive we never had a seminar with anyone but Pick or Parker. (Tatum being the early exception). It wasn’t until after Parker’s death that anyone but those two conducted a seminar at John’s school. When I competed at the Internationals it was always Pick that I saw shadowing Parker, scanning the crowd as Parker shook hands or conversed. Pick was Mr. Parker’s bodyguard, accepting the responsibility requested of him after GM Tuiolosega started the Limalama Arts of Self Defense and could no longer fulfill that roll. Pick continued this responsibility until Parkers death in 1990. After Mr. Parker died John Sepulveda assembled all of his senior students at the dojo and said to us that “Where Mike Pick goes, we go” (For his own reasons John did not follow through with that announcement)

I offer this trip down my memory lane in support of what Wes Idol, Billy Lear Frank Trejo and others have stated concerning Michael Pick, his relationship with Mr. Parker and his rank. These memories are evidenced by pictures taken during these events, other people’s memories / recollections, mirroring my own, and video footage of all my tests. The summary of my 21 years of observation concerning this dispute is as follows. When Mr. Parker wanted someone to travel with him so he could have someone to smack around and pay his own way, Dennis Conatser fit the bill. When he wanted to work on police arrest and control technique, Ron Chapel fit the bill. When his life was on the line and he needed someone to watch his back he called on the one man that could provide that type of trusted protection, Michael Robert Pick….a 4th degree Black Belt? Draw your own conclusions.

Marcus Buonfiglio
Southwest Regional Director
Universal Kenpo Federation

 

[kenmpoka]

why not produce copies of the certificates in question and the proper registration numbers and be done with this crap???

:asian:

 

[Wes Idol]

Mr. T.,

A very good point. Problem is, Mike Pick is someone that never desired or requested any certificates. I know for decades he was one of the only students of Ed Parker that never wore any rank on his black belt. I've been in Pick's office at his home and saw no certificates anywhere, and yet it would not be true to state he is not a black belt of Parker's.

I agree with you...the experience of this "crap." Unfortunately we're not dealing with someone that ever coveted certificates for his own, so paper trails don't properly explain Mike Pick's rank under Ed Parker.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

 

[Nightingale]

from what I've heard (READ: I WASN'T THERE, but several someones told me), Mr. Parker often promoted people on the spur of the moment. Not everyone received a certificate, which is now causing problems for people who need to authenticate their rank.

 

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
from what I've heard (READ: I WASN'T THERE, but several someones told me), Mr. Parker often promoted people on the spur of the moment. Not everyone received a certificate, which is now causing problems for people who need to authenticate their rank.

You are right, and there are several people that wished Mr. Parker was a little more official about the way he would promote people... Mr. Conatser being one of them (at least that's what he's shared with me).

Sincerely,
Billy Lear :asian:

 

[Billy Lear]

:asian:

 

[jdmills]

Originally posted by Marcus Buonfiglio
When Mr. Parker wanted someone to travel with him so he could have someone to smack around and pay his own way, Dennis Conatser fit the bill. When he wanted to work on police arrest and control technique, Ron Chapel fit the bill. When his life was on the line and he needed someone to watch his back he called on the one man that could provide that type of trusted protection, Michael Robert Pick….a 4th degree Black Belt? Draw your own conclusions.

Marcus Buonfiglio
Southwest Regional Director
Universal Kenpo Federation

Come on now, are you seriously saying that Dennis Conatser is merely "someone to travel with him so he could have someone to smack around and pay his own way"? I don't know Mr. Conatser personally but he sure seems like much more than that to me.

I'd go on but the last thing Mr. Conatser needs is a defense from me, he's quite capable of that on his own should he choose to do so.

If you do not like Mr. Conatser, that's fine, but to make these type of condesending statements is not right.

Jim

 

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by jdmills
If you do not like Mr. Conatser, that's fine, but to make these type of condesending statements is not right.

Jim

It's not right for anyone to make condescending comments, regardless of their rank... Mr. Conatser is no exception.

It has to stop sometime. Right

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Billy Lear
It's not right for anyone to make condescending comments, regardless of their rank... Mr. Conatser is no exception.

Right! :rofl:

BTW, all the black Belts I know that were promoted to Black By Mr. Parker "did" receive certificates from Mr. Parker, such as: Tom Kelly, Steve LaBounty, Bob White, Frank Trejo, Larry Tatum, Joe Palanzo, & Huk Planas, just to name a few of the high rankers.

I never said any didn't receive certificates - that was not a statement of mine.

:asian:

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Wes Idol
Mr. T.,

A very good point. Problem is, Mike Pick is someone that never desired or requested any certificates. I know for decades he was one of the only students of Ed Parker that never wore any rank on his black belt. I've been in Pick's office at his home and saw no certificates anywhere, and yet it would not be true to state he is not a black belt of Parker's.

I agree with you...the experience of this "crap." Unfortunately we're not dealing with someone that ever coveted certificates for his own, so paper trails don't properly explain Mike Pick's rank under Ed Parker.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

I don't get in here too often anymore because of this kind of crap. I certainly don't care one way or the other if "P" got his 4th or his 7th under SGM Parker... But it seems damned interesting to me that "W" is suddenly so defending of someone who doesn't have paper to back his statements. Most particularly when W was, not too long ago, making all sorts of statements regarding others who would not produce paper to satisfy his whims and desires and rantings. It would appear that this type of behavior is ok if W happens to like and respect you, but not if he doesn't.

Mr. P, I think you probably could do much better to have someone defend your honor than W... Not much consistency or veracity.

The agendas should stop sometime. P gave himself 10th degree. It is a matter of rather historical record, based on memories of people who saw his original website whereupon he presented a letter signed by "T" of Lima Lama, proclaiming him the Grand Master and head of American Kenpo and he deemed himself worthy of tying on the 10th Degree. Was he a 4th at that time? A 7th? I honestly don't think it matters, as Trejo (too many Ts would be confusing) took a 10th kick in from him. That makes P valid a valid 10th and Trejo politically beholden to P ... As no one ever questioned that move, and everything else up to that point matters, not one whit.

I, for one, salute and accept P as a 10th Degree in EPAK, Trejo as a 10th in EPAK, and virtually anyone else who is kicked in or promoted as a 10th in American Kenpo. Why all the fuss and fighting over what went before? Today is the day, and now is the moment? I think so.

If you are not an EPAK Senior, you have no right to question the rank of a 10th Degree, nor his or her history. You were not there, nor do you have the rank entitlement, and very little understanding of the rank and the respect that goes with it. If other 10th Degrees all accept him/her... Without question, who are you junior BBs to even be discussing it?

Man... I'm embarrassed by all this crap.... Glad I'm not a senior. What the heck!!! I'm not even a student of American Kenpo...

In that case... Never mind... Pray proceed with all this wallowing and mental masturbation...

Dan

 

[Dun Ringill]

If I was a 10th degree, the last people in the world i would want defending me are a Brown Belt and a 3rd degree with no credibility. But I guess that's just my personal opinion.

Oss

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
why not produce copies of the certificates in question and the proper registration numbers and be done with this crap???

:asian:

Wes, I appreciate your loyalty, but you mean to tell me that Mr. Pick never received a certificate from Mr. Parker? If that is the case, then his rank would be at best questionable. I know that Mr. Pick has contributed a lot over the years, and I would never question his knowledge but to say that he was promoted verbally without a few non-biased witnesses, would be a very bold statement. Even SGM Parker received a certificate from his teacher signed by a third party, to legitimize his teaching credentials. I personally don't know of anyone in EPAK that has not received some kind of proof of promotion from Mr. Parker, asked or not. This is just not the way an assocation (IKKA) works.

I have an easier time accepting Mr. Pick's 10th than his others' if they were all verbal and private!!!

In any case you should be loyal to your teachers and their knowledge, but keep an open mind to other opinions as well.


:asian:

 

[Seig]

The bottom line is this. Some people have 10th degrees, other people do not believe they should wear them. I have been told repeatedly that Mr. Parker did envision at some point in time, other 10th degrees within his system. Since Mr. Parker is not around to pass these out, some have been promoted by their students, some have been promoted by their peers, and some have promoted themselves. In my opinion, if you tie on a 10th, then you should be ready to defend your position. I will not say, as a lowly third black, who I feel should or should not wear a 10th black. Whatever rank you wear, YOU are the one that has to wear it. But to all who would wear it, be prepared to come under attack....That is a fact.

 

[kenpo3631]

If so what do you think?

Parker's Letter to Pick

 

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by Dun Ringill
If I was a 10th degree, the last people in the world i would want defending me are a Brown Belt and a 3rd degree with no credibility. But I guess that's just my personal opinion.

Oss

What makes you say I have no credibility? Curious

I'm not saying that Dennis Conatser is right or wrong, just that he might not be in possession of all the facts. Then ofcourse, here we are slamming each other. C'mon...

Frank Trejo recalls that Mr. Parker introduced Mike Pick several times as a seventh degree, the first of which was at an instructors camp in the 1980's. I'm stuck wondering... 1. Did Trejo lie to me?, 2. Is Trejo not remembering this right?, 3. Is Dennis lying?, 4. Is Dennis not in possession of correct information?

All of these things are possible. I just don't want to think that either of these two men (Dennis Conatser or Frank Trejo) would willingly try to decieve me for some reason.

Dun, I have an ignore option on this thing... I'd prefer not to use it. You can attack my character all you want. You can discredit me all that you want. I'm not anybody prominent, but I am somebody... just like you.

Don't be hatin',
Billy Lear :asian: