How important is rank in a school owner, really?

[skribs]

I personally think that spending two days a week teaching as the primary instructor will do a lot more for you now then continuing to learn under the school you mentioned.

Update on this.

I'm starting to have similar issues with this Master as I am my previous. I'm wondering how much of it is a cultural barrier. I recently changed my schedule (work schedule changed) and he and his wife have gotten a little bit colder to me. The weird thing is I think this new schedule actually works out better for them as well, because A) I'm now helping with the most difficult class (the little kids) and B) their other Master on staff has just returned from paternity leave, and is there on the days I'm not, so we have good coverage.

But I'm not the primary instructor. He has in-house students that are. I'm just the highest ranking non-Master. I don't know how much of my teaching skills I'm really working, when half the time I have to bite my tongue because I would teach things differently. And, I've started helping out with kid's Muay Thai class in my BJJ gym, I'll probably start helping out in the kid's BJJ class when I get my blue belt. I've also got some folks from my BJJ school who want to learn TKD (especially ones who don't want to do MT because it's too rough), so I might take apprentices like a Sith Lord until I can officially run a school.

I actually did that before I moved here, I had a friend I taught on the weekends in my home dojo. He had no martial arts experience, so it was a good filter for my curriculum I was developing, as opposed to having my parents (already black belts) and one of our friends from our last dojang (also a black belt) look at it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Update on this.


er. I don't know how much of my teaching skills I'm really working, when half the time I have to bite my tongue because I would teach things differently.

Perhaps you should have a conversation with the school owner about your ideas.

 

[skribs]

Perhaps you should have a conversation with the school owner about your ideas.

I don't get the impression he's open to that kind of feedback.

Edit to add:

He is probably the most controlling of any Master I've had.

His class is very strictly scripted. Instructors lead warmups by following a rote memorized stretching routine. I have never seen an instructor lead after stretches are done. He takes over the class at that point. At the end of class he divides the class into small groups led by instructors, but we have strict instructions on what to teach them.

During testing, I sat as a "judge" on a couple of tests. I did not get a single opportunity to speak, nor paper to grade. I was just there as a figurehead.

He has his ways and he's set in those ways, and I don't think I'm going to change them. Especially not as a non-Korean whose 20 years and 5 degrees his junior.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't get the impression he's open to that kind of feedback.

Edit to add:

He is probably the most controlling of any Master I've had.

His class is very strictly scripted. Instructors lead warmups by following a rote memorized stretching routine. I have never seen an instructor lead after stretches are done. He takes over the class at that point. At the end of class he divides the class into small groups led by instructors, but we have strict instructions on what to teach them.

During testing, I sat as a "judge" on a couple of tests. I did not get a single opportunity to speak, nor paper to grade. I was just there as a figurehead.

He has his ways and he's set in those ways, and I don't think I'm going to change them. Especially not as a non-Korean whose 20 years and 5 degrees his junior.

Personally, this would be more reason for me to leave. You've already established you're not learning anything all that useful TKD/skill-wise, and now you're not learning how to teach or grade as well? Pretty much the only reason I'd stay in your position at this point would be to get my 4th degree and dip, and that would only be if you plan on teaching/grading through the kukkiwon.

Does the kukkiwon have options for remote training and/or going to korea when it's time to grade? I feel like @andyjeffries mentioned something about that at some point...

 

[skribs]

Does the kukkiwon have options for remote training and/or going to korea when it's time to grade? I feel like @andyjeffries mentioned something about that at some point...

I think there are options for going to Korea, or for going somewhere else. I would be hesitant to do that without some sort of mentor, even a remote mentor, because there might be something I wasn't aware of as a requirement that I'm completely unprepared for.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think there are options for going to Korea, or for going somewhere else. I would be hesitant to do that without some sort of mentor, even a remote mentor, because there might be something I wasn't aware of as a requirement that I'm completely unprepared for.

Yeah the remote mentor part of it would be important. Especially if you ever want to get past 4th degree (and plan on staying where you're currently at geography-wise). There are a couple people that have a pretty good online presence (including two on this site) that it might be worth reaching out to and seeing if you can work out an arrangement.

And I almost never actually recommend remote training - that's my last go to. But it seems like you're at that point.

 

[skribs]

Yeah the remote mentor part of it would be important. Especially if you ever want to get past 4th degree (and plan on staying where you're currently at geography-wise). There are a couple people that have a pretty good online presence (including two on this site) that it might be worth reaching out to and seeing if you can work out an arrangement.

And I almost never actually recommend remote training - that's my last go to. But it seems like you're at that point.

I wouldn't necessarily say remote training. I'm currently training in BJJ and Muay Thai. And I think most of my growth in TKD at this point is going to come when I have the opportunity to test things out for myself with less of a safety net.

But I could use a mentor. That's something maybe for another thread, though.

I don't plan on staying with KKW and want to go independent, so that complicates the search, I think.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But I could use a mentor. That's something maybe for another thread, though.

Sounds like a good idea to me. I'll be quiet in that thread

 

[WaterGal]

I think there are options for going to Korea, or for going somewhere else. I would be hesitant to do that without some sort of mentor, even a remote mentor, because there might be something I wasn't aware of as a requirement that I'm completely unprepared for.

There definitely are some instructors out there who would likely be willing to help you out with this. The issue will be networking to find them, since they're not likely to advertise this on their website. I've seen this happen before, but it's more of a case by case thing. I don't know if you're on any martial arts Facebook groups, like the Century group, USAT Edge, the Chung do kwan group, etc, but that can be a good way to network with other people in this industry and get advice and assistance.

 

[skribs]

There definitely are some instructors out there who would likely be willing to help you out with this. The issue will be networking to find them, since they're not likely to advertise this on their website. I've seen this happen before, but it's more of a case by case thing. I don't know if you're on any martial arts Facebook groups, like the Century group, USAT Edge, the Chung do kwan group, etc, but that can be a good way to network with other people in this industry and get advice and assistance.

Thanks. I'm starting to put feelers out and get an idea of where to find one. But I'm going to be very busy with work and some other unrelated things for the next few months, so this isn't currently a priority.

 

[skribs]

Century group, USAT Edge, the Chung do kwan group

I made a reddit post along these lines, and two others suggested Chung do kwan. I'll have to look into all of these organizations, but I haven't heard of them before now.

 

[Anarax]

As many of you are aware, I've recently moved halfway across the country, and have since joined a BJJ/Muay Thai gym, and more recently a new TKD school as well.

So far, I love the BJJ school. I'm not nearly as enthusiastic about the TKD. The problem is, it's about the only KKW school in the area accepting black belts from outside the school. So if I want to get my 4th degree, I feel this is my only option.

There are three main things that make me feel like I'm wasting my time here.

• There is a lot of pomp and circumstance, by that I mean scripted events that often involve a call-and-response. There's a lot of different systems that are in place, such as different types of stripes and patches, levels of black belts, a separate white belt system for younger kids. I'm 2 months in and I feel like I've almost got a grasp on all of these processes.
• This is a school which has "levels" of each black belt degree. 1st degree has at least 7 levels (I'm not sure how many there are, and neither are the black belts). 2nd and 3rd only have 2. But I need to start 3rd degree over and go through these levels. He might accelerate them for me (because I've been active as a 4th degree for 4 years and already went through all of the intermediate tests at my previous school), or he might not. If he doesn't, I'll need to wait at least 3 years before being able to test.
• This school is incredibly low on contact. One-step sparring is 100% compliant. They barely hold kicking shields. In sparring, he says "light contact" isn't allowed, we have to do "tap sparring" instead. We don't do headshots at any level, not even light contact. When we do conditioning in class, we'll do two sets of 3 jumping jacks, 2 pushups, and 1 situp. The kicker for me was when we were doing one-step drills and he said, "Don't actually block the arm because you might hurt them."

So yes, I feel like I'm wasting my time. But if I want my 4th degree, he's got a monopoly on it.

At this point, I'm probably going to wait 3-5 years anyway before opening a school. But I have to wonder if I'd be better off throwing myself 100% into BJJ and Muay Thai. Right now I'm at about a 50/50 split. I feel like I'm wasting time in TKD, but not in BJJ/MT.

To be clear, I'm fine going through his timeline if it feels appropriate. I don't mind going through the levels as fast as I'm ready for them, and if that's 1 year or more for each level, that's perfectly understandable. What I don't want is to be ready for level 1 six months in, and have to wait another six months because I haven't been at his school for a year; and then be ready for level 2 a few months after that and have to wait nine months to be eligible...

I'm planning on leaving KKW either way. I'm not 100% onboard with everything they do. However, if given a choice, I'd rather leave as a 4th degree so there's no question whether or not I could handle getting my KKW 4th degree. But I think I would have a much better school if I spend the next 3-5 years focusing on MMA than splitting time between MMA and a TKD school where I don't feel like I'm allowed to learn anything useful.

I think your current rank is more than sufficient to open your own school. As a potential student, Red flags only pop up when people are vague about their experience. People who say "Done MA for a while" or "been involved in the arts" are those I avoid.

I feel like I'm wasting time in TKD, but not in BJJ/MT.

That's the most important thing to acknowledge. We reach a point as martial artists when we know when we're no longer getting productive training. More times than not I think going with your gut on this is the best move. However, I also understand your conundrum rank as it relates to opening your own school.

 

[skribs]

That's the most important thing to acknowledge. We reach a point as martial artists when we know when we're no longer getting productive training

To be clear, I'm wasting time in this school, if I were in a different school I might not feel it a waste of time.

 

[HighKick]

I think your current rank is more than sufficient to open your own school. As a potential student, Red flags only pop up when people are vague about their experience. People who say "Done MA for a while" or "been involved in the arts" are those I avoid.


That's the most important thing to acknowledge. We reach a point as martial artists when we know when we're no longer getting productive training. More times than not I think going with your gut on this is the best move. However, I also understand your conundrum rank as it relates to opening your own school.

It is shocking how many instructor resumes I have seen that say 'trained with master X' (fill in the blank) only to find out they went to one seminar. That usually does not flesh out for new students, but I think it always comes to the surface later on. Just false advertising and misrepresentation to me.

 

[Mider]

As many of you are aware, I've recently moved halfway across the country, and have since joined a BJJ/Muay Thai gym, and more recently a new TKD school as well.

So far, I love the BJJ school. I'm not nearly as enthusiastic about the TKD. The problem is, it's about the only KKW school in the area accepting black belts from outside the school. So if I want to get my 4th degree, I feel this is my only option.

There are three main things that make me feel like I'm wasting my time here.

• There is a lot of pomp and circumstance, by that I mean scripted events that often involve a call-and-response. There's a lot of different systems that are in place, such as different types of stripes and patches, levels of black belts, a separate white belt system for younger kids. I'm 2 months in and I feel like I've almost got a grasp on all of these processes.
• This is a school which has "levels" of each black belt degree. 1st degree has at least 7 levels (I'm not sure how many there are, and neither are the black belts). 2nd and 3rd only have 2. But I need to start 3rd degree over and go through these levels. He might accelerate them for me (because I've been active as a 4th degree for 4 years and already went through all of the intermediate tests at my previous school), or he might not. If he doesn't, I'll need to wait at least 3 years before being able to test.
• This school is incredibly low on contact. One-step sparring is 100% compliant. They barely hold kicking shields. In sparring, he says "light contact" isn't allowed, we have to do "tap sparring" instead. We don't do headshots at any level, not even light contact. When we do conditioning in class, we'll do two sets of 3 jumping jacks, 2 pushups, and 1 situp. The kicker for me was when we were doing one-step drills and he said, "Don't actually block the arm because you might hurt them."

So yes, I feel like I'm wasting my time. But if I want my 4th degree, he's got a monopoly on it.

At this point, I'm probably going to wait 3-5 years anyway before opening a school. But I have to wonder if I'd be better off throwing myself 100% into BJJ and Muay Thai. Right now I'm at about a 50/50 split. I feel like I'm wasting time in TKD, but not in BJJ/MT.

To be clear, I'm fine going through his timeline if it feels appropriate. I don't mind going through the levels as fast as I'm ready for them, and if that's 1 year or more for each level, that's perfectly understandable. What I don't want is to be ready for level 1 six months in, and have to wait another six months because I haven't been at his school for a year; and then be ready for level 2 a few months after that and have to wait nine months to be eligible...

I'm planning on leaving KKW either way. I'm not 100% onboard with everything they do. However, if given a choice, I'd rather leave as a 4th degree so there's no question whether or not I could handle getting my KKW 4th degree. But I think I would have a much better school if I spend the next 3-5 years focusing on MMA than splitting time between MMA and a TKD school where I don't feel like I'm allowed to learn anything useful.

Rank matters in MMA either way but it seems that it’s more important to prove in BJJ, judo, etc.

 

[andyjeffries]

Does the kukkiwon have options for remote training and/or going to korea when it's time to grade? I feel like @andyjeffries mentioned something about that at some point...

I may have said something on those lines, but I don't think what I've said in the past would be relevant here. (in the below I'll use "You" even though I know you were tagging me to bring email to the OP")

You can attend the master course in Korea from 2nd Dan and above. There you will make lots of contacts and learn Kukkiwon standards. There's also an online part-course (so you spend less time in Korea, but I've never done it). I'd imagine below 4th Dan tests Kukkiwon will recommend that you speak to a local Dan recommender (and can likely help you find one). Above 4th Dan, they may well assist you in allowing you to test directly in Korea at the appropriate times.

But I don't believe there's any real remote training/mentorship opportunity or scheme available though.

 

[HighKick]

Personally, this would be more reason for me to leave. You've already established you're not learning anything all that useful TKD/skill-wise, and now you're not learning how to teach or grade as well? Pretty much the only reason I'd stay in your position at this point would be to get my 4th degree and dip, and that would only be if you plan on teaching/grading through the kukkiwon.

Does the kukkiwon have options for remote training and/or going to korea when ito grade? I feel like @andyjeffries mentioned something about that at some point...

Apologies for jumping into the thread, but stateside WTMU is a great source for Kukkiwon certification and relevant training.
WTMU
No, I am not affiliated with them but have attended one Master Class through them and it was top shelf.

 

[skribs]

Another update:

When I left, I couldn't really think of a way to tell him that I'm leaving because his school is too soft. Especially since he's 20 years and 5 belts my senior in a culture that values age and rank. Instead, I told him related truths, that with work picking up and getting ready to move into my new house, I'm too busy for TKD right now.

This was a few weeks ago. My parents are still attending his classes. He's been getting very controlling with when they can and can't go. He won't let my Dad (3rd degree) help out anymore until he learns the curriculum. He won't let my Dad go to both black belt class and all-belts class on the same day. He won't let my Mom or Dad judge tests (which he previously wanted them on the judges panel).

The best part? He thinks I quit because I burned out.

No, I quit because I was being held back.

My parents are at the point where they figured they paid for a year and it's good exercise (if they ignore him telling them to slow down). Otherwise they would probably quit, too.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

My parents are at the point where they figured they paid for a year and it's good exercise (if they ignore him telling them to slow down). Otherwise they would probably quit, too.

This is why I'd never pay for a year before knowing if I like the place.

 

[skribs]

This is why I'd never pay for a year before knowing if I like the place.

The year option was at around a 75% discount. I was there around 3 months. They've been there more than 3 months. It was worth it.