How important is lineage?
- Thread starter Xue Sheng
- Start date
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Andrew Green said:
That's a pretty good article. I have often thought this way, but this is a pretty good expression of it. Thanks for sharing it.
Tai Chi is not the only art that claims "lineage", it is however one of the few that can make the claims that can be easily proven or disproven. If I start doing the form CMC style and claim traditional Yang lineage I am instantly found out. It is also EASY to trace teachers back to ones of historical importance, not taking much more then a short time looking or making calls will prove it one way or the other. Tai Chi is just a very well documented system.
Other systems are far more "secretive". It would take years in training in competing lineages to truly learn the differences between the two, that is if you even have the ability to do both. In addition most teachers claim their teacher was from a foreign country where records and language suddenly make checking them out difficult to impossible.
Other systems are far more "secretive". It would take years in training in competing lineages to truly learn the differences between the two, that is if you even have the ability to do both. In addition most teachers claim their teacher was from a foreign country where records and language suddenly make checking them out difficult to impossible.
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
Andrew,
Yes, that is a very good article indeed. I agree with the main thrust of what he says, but his assertion that "Not everything they did was the best way to do things, in my opinion". I think that reflects why we have such a low level of taiji in the west and such a plethora of low level teachers!
Xue Sheng
I know what you are saying about teachers not mentioning their lineage. Mine does not talk about it (or even write about it on his website) and only talks about the people who conferred the lineage when he is telling an anecdote! I think one of the main differences about lineage is whether a teacher "claims" a lineage or in fact whether he/she has had a lineage conferred. I talk about lineage to my students, only to confirm that what I am teaching, is what the Yang Family are teaching China today.
Yang Cheng-fu said "The greatest danger is in introducing one's personal innovations and passing on errors as true transmissions. The true transmission of principles and applications is easily lost, even to the point of obscuring the original intention of former Masters".
Very best wishes
Yes, that is a very good article indeed. I agree with the main thrust of what he says, but his assertion that "Not everything they did was the best way to do things, in my opinion". I think that reflects why we have such a low level of taiji in the west and such a plethora of low level teachers!
Xue Sheng
I know what you are saying about teachers not mentioning their lineage. Mine does not talk about it (or even write about it on his website) and only talks about the people who conferred the lineage when he is telling an anecdote! I think one of the main differences about lineage is whether a teacher "claims" a lineage or in fact whether he/she has had a lineage conferred. I talk about lineage to my students, only to confirm that what I am teaching, is what the Yang Family are teaching China today.
Yang Cheng-fu said "The greatest danger is in introducing one's personal innovations and passing on errors as true transmissions. The true transmission of principles and applications is easily lost, even to the point of obscuring the original intention of former Masters".
Very best wishes
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
When I use to teach I did not talk about lineage either. I have been considering teaching again, but I do need to talk to my Sifu first.
I guess what I have figured out from all the responses to my question is that lineage is important, however it can be abused, over used or fraudulently claimed.
And that most good teachers do not rely on the fact that they have a lineage. They learned Tai Chi because they wanted to learn Tai Chi, not because they wanted to say they learned from some specific teacher.
My teacher once told a story of a senior student of his teacher, when my teacher was just beginning. I will not go into the whole story, but he said that you could tell by watching him that he was doing Tai Chi because he loved Tai Chi, and there was nothing else.
However not having that lineage does not necessarily mean that the person is bad a Tai Chi or is inferior to someone that has a lineage. I have talked to people from China who have said that if you want to learn real Tai Chi in China you have to go to a teacher that isn't famous. That does not rule out someone from one of the Tai Chi families, it rules out the most famous members of the family. There is another reason for this statement. If you are Chinese in China and you want to learn Chen style, for example, you will not start out with Chen Zhenglei as your teacher, he teaches only advanced students, The same goes for all of the families left in China.
Every Tai Chi Family has changed the root. Chen has old and new form, Yang family changed Chen, Yang Cheng Fu changed Yang, Wu and Wu/Hao also changed Yang and Sun changed Wu/Hao, Cheng Man-Ching changed Yang. But yet all are considered good Tai Chi.
My Teacher's Teacher studied Wu/Hao and then changed to Yang, but I see little difference between Yang Family Tai Chi and what I have learned. The only difference that I see is that there are 2 fast forms from Sifu Tung where traditional Yang has 1.
Thank you to all for all the responses
I guess what I have figured out from all the responses to my question is that lineage is important, however it can be abused, over used or fraudulently claimed.
And that most good teachers do not rely on the fact that they have a lineage. They learned Tai Chi because they wanted to learn Tai Chi, not because they wanted to say they learned from some specific teacher.
My teacher once told a story of a senior student of his teacher, when my teacher was just beginning. I will not go into the whole story, but he said that you could tell by watching him that he was doing Tai Chi because he loved Tai Chi, and there was nothing else.
However not having that lineage does not necessarily mean that the person is bad a Tai Chi or is inferior to someone that has a lineage. I have talked to people from China who have said that if you want to learn real Tai Chi in China you have to go to a teacher that isn't famous. That does not rule out someone from one of the Tai Chi families, it rules out the most famous members of the family. There is another reason for this statement. If you are Chinese in China and you want to learn Chen style, for example, you will not start out with Chen Zhenglei as your teacher, he teaches only advanced students, The same goes for all of the families left in China.
Every Tai Chi Family has changed the root. Chen has old and new form, Yang family changed Chen, Yang Cheng Fu changed Yang, Wu and Wu/Hao also changed Yang and Sun changed Wu/Hao, Cheng Man-Ching changed Yang. But yet all are considered good Tai Chi.
My Teacher's Teacher studied Wu/Hao and then changed to Yang, but I see little difference between Yang Family Tai Chi and what I have learned. The only difference that I see is that there are 2 fast forms from Sifu Tung where traditional Yang has 1.
Thank you to all for all the responses
Laoshi77
Orange Belt
Hello, everyone.
Personally i can see the good and bad about this particular discussion.
It was said earlier that 'pedigree' is important to some people more so than other things, in that sense it is subjective. For instance i could say my Taijiquan teacher studied in China and her teacher was the inheritor of a private tradition; how would that relate to this discussion? If nobody had heard of the master, then is the fact less important? Personally, i know how respected he was, in China, but you might not have, in this sense it is a relative fact.
On the other hand, it should be said that practising Taijiquan with all the correct principles is the important thing.
Personally i can see the good and bad about this particular discussion.
It was said earlier that 'pedigree' is important to some people more so than other things, in that sense it is subjective. For instance i could say my Taijiquan teacher studied in China and her teacher was the inheritor of a private tradition; how would that relate to this discussion? If nobody had heard of the master, then is the fact less important? Personally, i know how respected he was, in China, but you might not have, in this sense it is a relative fact.
On the other hand, it should be said that practising Taijiquan with all the correct principles is the important thing.
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Correct pedigree is very important to some and not as important to others. But what does that pedigree actually mean based on the origin and history of Tai Chi?
Before I type my self into oblivion here it is good to know that the current 5 families of Tai Chi are those families recognized by the government of the peoples Republic of China that does not mean that there are not other families.
There is a lot of stuff here and I have tried to provide the links where some of it comes from
Tai Chi Family Tree
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi#Family_tree
Yang Style Tai Chi
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/index.html
Depending on which origin of Tai Chi you believe, and I have found 3 or 4 different ones, it could make a difference in how you feel about lineage. If you believe that Chang San Feng is the originator of Tai Chi at the end of the Sung Dynasty (960-1279), and Chen Chang-hsiang learned Tai Chi between 1771 1853, and that the 5 Tai Chi families are the only proper lineage and the only good teachers come from them, then what happened for the 492 years between Chang and Chen?
Chang supposedly taught at the Shaolin temple, whatever happened to his students?
Another similar version
http://www.8step.com/taichi/history.html
Chang Sen Feng returned to the Shaolin temple where his new internal art (often called Wu Tang Boxing) was taught to Chang Sun Chi. At this point, the art consisted of only three techniques, with many fighting applications, and was called Lao San Dao (Old Three Cuts). Chang Sun Chi in turn taught Wang Tsung Yueh, who changed the art by developing it into 13 postures. The modified forms were taught to Jiang Fa, who later journeyed to the nearby Chen village and taught Chen Wang Ting.
If you believe the Chen family version that says they are the originators of Tai Chi and that is what makes Sun, Hao, Wu and Yang good lineages, what about all of the students that came form Chen, Yang and Wu that were not named Chen, Yang and Wu.
lineages show sometimes different things and there are other non-tai chi family people involved.
Chang San Feng - Wang Tsung Yueh - Chen Wang Ting
Chang San Feng - Chang Sung-chi - Wang Tsung Yueh - Chen Wang Ting & Chiang Fa
Chiang Fa - Chen Chang-hsing
The Tai Chi family tree, after the Chen family, has all sorts of people in it that are not named Chen, Yang, Wu. Wu/Hao, Sun
There is a "Li Jing Ting" that leads to the Hu Lei School of Tai Chi, Li was a student of Chen Ching-ping
There is also a "Li I-yu" (Si style) between "Wu Yu-Xiang" and "Hao Wei-Chen"
Chen Fa-Ke had a student named Feng Zhiqiang
Chen Zhao-pi taught students named Wang Xian, and Zhu Tain-cai
Yang Lu-chan's student Wu Quan-yu taught Wang Mao-zhai, Chi Ko-Ch'en and Chang Yun Ting, As a matter of fact Wu style lineage goes through several people that are not from the Wu family.
Yang Family Tai Chi lineage is loaded with non-yang family students as far back as Yang Lu-chan teaching Wang
Lan-ting, Wu Yu-Xiang (Wu Style) and Li I-yu (Si style)
There are also stories about Yang Cheng-fu's brother Yang Shao-hao being better at Tai Chi than Yang Cheng-fu, but Shao-hao was a very abusive teacher and hard to learn from.
Basically it comes down to that there are 5 families recognized by the Chinese government as Tai Chi families Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun. There are other families of Tai Chi, just not recognized by the PRC.
There is one in Boston, however the family name escapes me. It is taught by Bo Sim Mark (Bo Sim Mak) [http://www.taichi-arts.com/index.shtml]. She was the inheritor of this family Tai Chi, and it was not her family. I would not dare compare the Tai Chi I do to her, nor do I think that because my teacher's lineage goes to Yang Cheng fu that I would have the slightest chance of matching her or defeating her at push hands or San Shou. I am fairly certain if I approached her with that attitude and challenged her I would be the recipient of a pretty good beating.
Now my style is Yang and the direct lineage is supposedly;
Chan Chang-hsing - Yang Lu-chan - Yang Chien-hou - Yang Cheng-fu - Tung Ying Chih - Sifu Chu - me.
I think that a teacher that has a good lineage is probably good of the Tai Chi he or she practices, but that lineage does not guarantee a good Tai Chi Teacher (example: Yang Shao-hao)
However a Teacher that does not have a 5 familys lineage has a good chance of being equally as good or bad as a teacher from one of those lineages.
Ultimately they all go back to Chen, Chang or both.
Before I type my self into oblivion here it is good to know that the current 5 families of Tai Chi are those families recognized by the government of the peoples Republic of China that does not mean that there are not other families.
There is a lot of stuff here and I have tried to provide the links where some of it comes from
Tai Chi Family Tree
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi#Family_tree
Yang Style Tai Chi
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/index.html
Depending on which origin of Tai Chi you believe, and I have found 3 or 4 different ones, it could make a difference in how you feel about lineage. If you believe that Chang San Feng is the originator of Tai Chi at the end of the Sung Dynasty (960-1279), and Chen Chang-hsiang learned Tai Chi between 1771 1853, and that the 5 Tai Chi families are the only proper lineage and the only good teachers come from them, then what happened for the 492 years between Chang and Chen?
Chang supposedly taught at the Shaolin temple, whatever happened to his students?
Another similar version
http://www.8step.com/taichi/history.html
Chang Sen Feng returned to the Shaolin temple where his new internal art (often called Wu Tang Boxing) was taught to Chang Sun Chi. At this point, the art consisted of only three techniques, with many fighting applications, and was called Lao San Dao (Old Three Cuts). Chang Sun Chi in turn taught Wang Tsung Yueh, who changed the art by developing it into 13 postures. The modified forms were taught to Jiang Fa, who later journeyed to the nearby Chen village and taught Chen Wang Ting.
If you believe the Chen family version that says they are the originators of Tai Chi and that is what makes Sun, Hao, Wu and Yang good lineages, what about all of the students that came form Chen, Yang and Wu that were not named Chen, Yang and Wu.
lineages show sometimes different things and there are other non-tai chi family people involved.
Chang San Feng - Wang Tsung Yueh - Chen Wang Ting
Chang San Feng - Chang Sung-chi - Wang Tsung Yueh - Chen Wang Ting & Chiang Fa
Chiang Fa - Chen Chang-hsing
The Tai Chi family tree, after the Chen family, has all sorts of people in it that are not named Chen, Yang, Wu. Wu/Hao, Sun
There is a "Li Jing Ting" that leads to the Hu Lei School of Tai Chi, Li was a student of Chen Ching-ping
There is also a "Li I-yu" (Si style) between "Wu Yu-Xiang" and "Hao Wei-Chen"
Chen Fa-Ke had a student named Feng Zhiqiang
Chen Zhao-pi taught students named Wang Xian, and Zhu Tain-cai
Yang Lu-chan's student Wu Quan-yu taught Wang Mao-zhai, Chi Ko-Ch'en and Chang Yun Ting, As a matter of fact Wu style lineage goes through several people that are not from the Wu family.
Yang Family Tai Chi lineage is loaded with non-yang family students as far back as Yang Lu-chan teaching Wang
Lan-ting, Wu Yu-Xiang (Wu Style) and Li I-yu (Si style)
There are also stories about Yang Cheng-fu's brother Yang Shao-hao being better at Tai Chi than Yang Cheng-fu, but Shao-hao was a very abusive teacher and hard to learn from.
Basically it comes down to that there are 5 families recognized by the Chinese government as Tai Chi families Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun. There are other families of Tai Chi, just not recognized by the PRC.
There is one in Boston, however the family name escapes me. It is taught by Bo Sim Mark (Bo Sim Mak) [http://www.taichi-arts.com/index.shtml]. She was the inheritor of this family Tai Chi, and it was not her family. I would not dare compare the Tai Chi I do to her, nor do I think that because my teacher's lineage goes to Yang Cheng fu that I would have the slightest chance of matching her or defeating her at push hands or San Shou. I am fairly certain if I approached her with that attitude and challenged her I would be the recipient of a pretty good beating.
Now my style is Yang and the direct lineage is supposedly;
Chan Chang-hsing - Yang Lu-chan - Yang Chien-hou - Yang Cheng-fu - Tung Ying Chih - Sifu Chu - me.
I think that a teacher that has a good lineage is probably good of the Tai Chi he or she practices, but that lineage does not guarantee a good Tai Chi Teacher (example: Yang Shao-hao)
However a Teacher that does not have a 5 familys lineage has a good chance of being equally as good or bad as a teacher from one of those lineages.
Ultimately they all go back to Chen, Chang or both.
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Good point about lineage and I think I alluded to that. Those that are good and have lineage or pedigree, tend not to talk about it much.
However, I do remember reading an article about Bo Sim Mak many years ago that did say she was the inheritor of a family style of Tai Chi. However the article could be wrong, and I am old so it is possible that my memory is failing me.
Also I would like to know how you define performance artist. Was she trained in Chinese opera? That to me is a performance artist. I have a very good friend that came from the Guangzhou opera, and her performance kung fu is quite good, but as she has told me, the main difference is she was trained to miss. She also had a fellow actor that was going to come to America and teach Kung Fu, her response was he was crazy, he doesn't know Kung Fu.
Also what version of the origin of Tai Chi do you subscribe to?
Let me change the example then, also near Boston, he claims no lineage, and he is marketing himself very well and it is a business to him.
Yang Jwing Ming, I have had the opportunity to do push hands with and Dr Yang, he is good and his Qin Na is very good. I do not necessarily like the Yang style form that he teaches, but he does know application. This could also be because his first martial art was not Tai Chi, but White Crane Kung fu.
Also as a side note, as to lineage meaning or not meaning good. I once had the chance to do push hands with someone who learned Yang Style Tai Chi in Taiwan, this was month after I did Push hands with Dr Yang. The only thing I know about this gentleman from Taiwan is he learned Tai Chi with Dr Yang in Taiwan. I never saw his form, but his push hands and applications were excellent. He was very good and fajing, I found that out the hard way, but I do not know a thing about his lineage other then his teacher was the same teacher as Dr Yang's.
He may have had a good lineage, I am not aware of any of the Yang family or Yang family disciples going to Taiwan, but that does not mean he had no recent connection to Yang family.
Note: Yang Jwing-Ming (YMAA) does not claim any relation to the Yang Tai Chi Family.
Lineage is good, but it is not the guarantee that you have a good teacher.
Not having lineage is just that, you have no recent claim to a family connection, but it does not mean you are a bad teacher or bad at the form.
But still there is the matter that the reason we know of the 5 families is that those are the families the Chinese government approves (endorses, if you will), There are other Tai Chi families.
And I guess my original question is still unanswered after all,
How important is lineage?
However, I do remember reading an article about Bo Sim Mak many years ago that did say she was the inheritor of a family style of Tai Chi. However the article could be wrong, and I am old so it is possible that my memory is failing me.
Also I would like to know how you define performance artist. Was she trained in Chinese opera? That to me is a performance artist. I have a very good friend that came from the Guangzhou opera, and her performance kung fu is quite good, but as she has told me, the main difference is she was trained to miss. She also had a fellow actor that was going to come to America and teach Kung Fu, her response was he was crazy, he doesn't know Kung Fu.
Also what version of the origin of Tai Chi do you subscribe to?
Let me change the example then, also near Boston, he claims no lineage, and he is marketing himself very well and it is a business to him.
Yang Jwing Ming, I have had the opportunity to do push hands with and Dr Yang, he is good and his Qin Na is very good. I do not necessarily like the Yang style form that he teaches, but he does know application. This could also be because his first martial art was not Tai Chi, but White Crane Kung fu.
Also as a side note, as to lineage meaning or not meaning good. I once had the chance to do push hands with someone who learned Yang Style Tai Chi in Taiwan, this was month after I did Push hands with Dr Yang. The only thing I know about this gentleman from Taiwan is he learned Tai Chi with Dr Yang in Taiwan. I never saw his form, but his push hands and applications were excellent. He was very good and fajing, I found that out the hard way, but I do not know a thing about his lineage other then his teacher was the same teacher as Dr Yang's.
He may have had a good lineage, I am not aware of any of the Yang family or Yang family disciples going to Taiwan, but that does not mean he had no recent connection to Yang family.
Note: Yang Jwing-Ming (YMAA) does not claim any relation to the Yang Tai Chi Family.
Lineage is good, but it is not the guarantee that you have a good teacher.
Not having lineage is just that, you have no recent claim to a family connection, but it does not mean you are a bad teacher or bad at the form.
But still there is the matter that the reason we know of the 5 families is that those are the families the Chinese government approves (endorses, if you will), There are other Tai Chi families.
And I guess my original question is still unanswered after all,
How important is lineage?
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
I have a rather old book by Master Bow-Sim Mark "Wushu Basic Training" in which it states
"Later she studied Yeung style Tai Chi, Wu style Tai Chi and Combined Tai Chi Chuan from some of the most famous masters in China. After completing the standard set of courses offered by the National Wushu Institute, Master Mark became an Instructor herself. She later followed one of the most authoritative masters of Tai Chi Chuan in China, Master Wing-Fay Fu."
I think she is pretty good, but then I have only seen her perform on video.
Best wishes
"Later she studied Yeung style Tai Chi, Wu style Tai Chi and Combined Tai Chi Chuan from some of the most famous masters in China. After completing the standard set of courses offered by the National Wushu Institute, Master Mark became an Instructor herself. She later followed one of the most authoritative masters of Tai Chi Chuan in China, Master Wing-Fay Fu."
I think she is pretty good, but then I have only seen her perform on video.
Best wishes
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Thank You for the information. All I know about Sifu Mak is what I have read, and the article did say Fu style.
I did very little training with Dr Yang, push hands and Qin na. But I did like the training.
I also now know part of his lineage.
Dr Yang first Yang Style Tai Chi teacher was "Kao Tao" after that he trained with "Li Mao-ching", and "Wilson Chen"
"Li Mao-ching" learned from "Han Ching-Tan" and "Wilson Chen" learned Tai chi from "Zhang Xiang-San"
"Han Ching-Tan" learned from "Yang Cheng Fu". Han Ching-Tan was also a teacher of Long Fist
I have not yet found out who taught Kao Tao or Chen.
But now there are some that say Dr Yang is not that good and he is just selling a product. But now he has a direct connection to Yang Cheng-Fu. Would this make a difference to those who say he is just a salesman?
I personally felt he was very good, the short time I studied with him.
I did very little training with Dr Yang, push hands and Qin na. But I did like the training.
I also now know part of his lineage.
Dr Yang first Yang Style Tai Chi teacher was "Kao Tao" after that he trained with "Li Mao-ching", and "Wilson Chen"
"Li Mao-ching" learned from "Han Ching-Tan" and "Wilson Chen" learned Tai chi from "Zhang Xiang-San"
"Han Ching-Tan" learned from "Yang Cheng Fu". Han Ching-Tan was also a teacher of Long Fist
I have not yet found out who taught Kao Tao or Chen.
But now there are some that say Dr Yang is not that good and he is just selling a product. But now he has a direct connection to Yang Cheng-Fu. Would this make a difference to those who say he is just a salesman?
I personally felt he was very good, the short time I studied with him.
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Yang Cheng-fu's older brother Yang Shao Hou taught the traditional old frame Yang style, Yang Cheng Fu changed it to what we know today as traditional Yang Style.
Yang Shao Hou had fewer students and he was a much harder person to train with.
His students
Yang Shao Hou
-> Chen Pan Ling
-> Yang Zhen Sheng
-> Hou Chi Kwang
-> Tian Zhao Lin
-> Hsiung Yang Ho
-> Wu Tu Nan
Would leaning from one of these people be a better lineage or pedigree since it is closer to the root?
Yang Shao Hou had fewer students and he was a much harder person to train with.
His students
Yang Shao Hou
-> Chen Pan Ling
-> Yang Zhen Sheng
-> Hou Chi Kwang
-> Tian Zhao Lin
-> Hsiung Yang Ho
-> Wu Tu Nan
Would leaning from one of these people be a better lineage or pedigree since it is closer to the root?
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