How important is contact sparring in MA?

[Flying Crane]

And with all that said, observe a boxer taking down multiple attackers at once;

He's using the skills he learned in a sport, but those sport attributes could be easily translated into a self defense situation. Those attributes and skills were developed through consistent heavy sparring.

how do you know he's a boxer? He could be wing chun, or shoalin, or shotokan, or tang soo do, or just gifted with his hands.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well look at boxing for example;

Skills like that can certainly have plenty of self defense applications. That along with endurance, learning how to throw a punch, learning to take a hit, footwork, etc. Can get you out of some hairy situations.

this one is actually really stupid. the only thing this shows is that when you know how your opponent will attempt to attack you, it's quite easy to dodge and evade his attacks.

If you try to argue that his footwork and bobbing and weaving skills are really good, at the same time anyone could also argue that the punching skills suck because nobody could hit him with their "boxing" punches.

This example is worthless.

 

[Hanzou]

how do you know he's a boxer? He could be wing chun, or shoalin, or shotokan, or tang soo do, or just gifted with his hands.

1.Because reports said he was an Armenian boxer.

2. WC,TSD, Shoto, and Shaolin guys don't fight like that.

 

[Flying Crane]

1.Because reports said he was an Armenian boxer.

I didn't listen all the way thru, did it say so in the video? In English?

2. WC,TSD, Shoto, and Shaolin guys don't fight like that.

oh you KNOW this, do you?

 

[Hanzou]

this one is actually really stupid. the only thing this shows is that when you know how your opponent will attempt to attack you, it's quite easy to dodge and evade his attacks.

If you try to argue that his footwork and bobbing and weaving skills are really good, at the same time anyone could also argue that the punching skills suck because nobody could hit him with their "boxing" punches.

This example is worthless.

Until you recognize that even most trained fighters don't utilize that skill and their brains become mashed potatoes. Your typical twice a week TKD or Kung Fu stylist cant evade anywhere close to that level. It's one of the core aspects of boxing, and you simply dont see it in many striking arts.

 

[geezer]

Your typical twice a week TKD or Kung Fu stylist cant evade anywhere close to that level.

Your "typical" twice a week hobbyist at anything can't do what a pro or really serious amateur can do. So what?

 

[geezer]

:lookie:

I disagree for two reasons. First, you need to define the venue in which they have an edge. Is it in a sporting competitions? If so, we've got an apples and oranges comparison. Is it in the street? I'll take someone with real world combatives experience over a TKD or BJJ gold medalist. Sparring makes a difference for sport, it makes no difference in real world altercations (and is detrimental) for the reasons I've listed above. Secondly, it depends on the school as to how conditioned the practitioner is and not the goal of the school. A martial artist is a person and a person can either be fit or unfit. It is a choice.

I don't spar much these days. But when I did I was fitter and more confident. I learned that it's not so easy to land a solid technique against a resisting opponent. If you can't land a punch, you can't land a "deadly technique" either. If you can't take the buffeting of moderate, controlled contact sparring, you'll be even more mentally disrupted by the violence of an actual attack on your person. Now there are other ways besides sparring to address these issues, but sparring can be one important part of a self defense training program for these reasons.


Sorry to keep agreeing with Hanzou. Please carry on . :lookie:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you

- can use your hand to hold on your opponent's throat, you can punch on his face, or take him down if needed.
- can't prevent your opponent's hand to reach on your throat, your combat skill will have some issue.

IMO, the "throat control" is the next best option after full contact.

 

[K-man]

:lookie:

I don't spar much these days. But when I did I was fitter and more confident. I learned that it's not so easy to land a solid technique against a resisting opponent. If you can't land a punch, you can't land a "deadly technique" either. If you can't take the buffeting of moderate, controlled contact sparring, you'll be even more mentally disrupted by the violence of an actual attack on your person. Now there are other ways besides sparring to address these issues, but sparring can be one important part of a self defense training program for these reasons.


Sorry to keep agreeing with Hanzou. Please carry on . :lookie:

I agree with what you are saying to a point and it is because of that point that I disagree with most of Hanzou's claims. When we used to spar it was from 'sparring range' or roughly two metres apart. It was give and take type sparring, getting in and out. It was good fun and you took some and gave some out. It was neither a violent attack on your person, nor were you trying to get in and finish your opponent so I would suggest that although it has some value, it is not enough for me to make it part of the syllabus.

We start either from sticky hands and build up the intensity or we have one person as the designated attacker. In real life you are not normally trying to attack your attacker, short of an opportunistic pre-emptive strike. Sport sparring is fine for sport but for me, I'd rather wait for the attack. Even then, that is not necessarily waiting for him to throw a punch but just he has to get inside striking range to be effective and that is my area of strength. I have no interest in entering his.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

this one is actually really stupid. the only thing this shows is that when you know how your opponent will attempt to attack you, it's quite easy to dodge and evade his attacks.

If you try to argue that his footwork and bobbing and weaving skills are really good, at the same time anyone could also argue that the punching skills suck because nobody could hit him with their "boxing" punches.

This example is worthless.

And that is the difference between defending boxing and defending boxing punches.

 

[drop bear]

I agree with what you are saying to a point and it is because of that point that I disagree with most of Hanzou's claims. When we used to spar it was from 'sparring range' or roughly two metres apart. It was give and take type sparring, getting in and out. It was good fun and you took some and gave some out. It was neither a violent attack on your person, nor were you trying to get in and finish your opponent so I would suggest that although it has some value, it is not enough for me to make it part of the syllabus.

We start either from sticky hands and build up the intensity or we have one person as the designated attacker. In real life you are not normally trying to attack your attacker, short of an opportunistic pre-emptive strike. Sport sparring is fine for sport but for me, I'd rather wait for the attack. Even then, that is not necessarily waiting for him to throw a punch but just he has to get inside striking range to be effective and that is my area of strength. I have no interest in entering his.
:asian:

you are adopting some new dynamic of fighting that does not involve that moving in and out of range and attacking and stuff?

 

[Flying Crane]

It's one of the core aspects of boxing, and you simply dont see it in many striking arts.

I'll clarify: YOU don't see it.

 

[K-man]

you are adopting some new dynamic of fighting that does not involve that moving in and out of range and attacking and stuff?

Not new. If you have to fight you engage and fight. That is the basic concept of Okinawan Karate and the way they teach the application of kata. Same principle in Krav and in Aikido. Judo engages, BJJ engages, Jujutsu engages, Wrestling engages. I can't think of any non-sport, empty-hand martial art that bounces around give and take like you see in Boxing, most Karate, and TKD. In MMA there is engagement but prior to the engaging you still have the sporting dance. You get penalised for not attacking. Muay Thai is similar in that it has the exchange of strikes but does allow the clinch.

As I have said all along, it is all in the definition. I didn't come into the discussion in the early stages as 'sparring' was defined as;

Touching/Hitting another person.

which is loose enough to cover everything. I don't know any empty hand form of martial art that does fall under that umbrella, unless it is one of the Ninjutsu sub sets. By this definition wrestling does not spar yet is a contact sport. I would suggest that training for wrestling is also sparring, in the broader sense, as much as any other martial art.

So by the definition given we spar in every area of our training. It's just not what a lot of people seem to expect to see when people 'spar'. By the definition given I would suggest contact sparring is essential in most martial arts, just that 'sparring' can be conducted in different ways.
:asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

Your typical twice a week TKD or Kung Fu stylist cant evade anywhere close to that level. It's one of the core aspects of boxing, and you simply dont see it in many striking arts.

That example shows that the fighter in the video is good at head movement but he also subjected the test to the following constraints:

1) Only punches were used.
3) Relatively unskilled punchers were used.
3) Only the head was targeted.

That skews the results quite a bit.

To make a blanket statement that someone who only trains twice a week (the bare minimum recommended amount of training) can't get even close to that is inaccurate at best.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I believe that martial athletes have the edge over martial artists because of their athletic ability and their contact sparring.

Personally I would give the edge to someone who spends most or all of their time training for self defense over someone who tarins for sport and does self defense on the side. You don't have to be an elite athlete to be able to defend yourself well you just have to have the appropriate skills/knowledge and the right mindset.

 

[Hanzou]

I'll clarify: YOU don't see it.

Would you care to post some vids showing traditional stylists utilizing that level of head movement and evasiveness?

 

[Hanzou]

I didn't listen all the way thru, did it say so in the video? In English?

The boxer's name is Samvel Demrjian, and he is a semi-professional Armenian boxer. In that vid he was fighting a mob of turks.

oh you KNOW this, do you?

If you spent your time and money in WC, Shotokan, Shaolin, or TSD and ended up fighting just like a boxer, you wasted your money. You should have just taken boxing.

 

[Hanzou]

That example shows that the fighter in the video is good at head movement but he also subjected the test to the following constraints:

1) Only punches were used.
3) Relatively unskilled punchers were used.
3) Only the head was targeted.

That skews the results quite a bit.

To make a blanket statement that someone who only trains twice a week (the bare minimum recommended amount of training) can't get even close to that is inaccurate at best.

Would you prefer this;

I didn't see too much of either in these vids;

Just saying.....

 

[Hanzou]

Personally I would give the edge to someone who spends most or all of their time training for self defense over someone who tarins for sport and does self defense on the side. You don't have to be an elite athlete to be able to defend yourself well you just have to have the appropriate skills/knowledge and the right mindset.

Again it comes down to simple logic; Who's better at knocking someone out? Someone who has actually knocked someone out, or someone who has never knocked someone out?

Who is better at choking someone? The person who has actually choked someone out, or the person who has only simulated choking someone out?

As shown in that vid with the boxer fighting off multiple attackers, its not difficult to take abilities learned for sport purposes into a self defense situation.

 

[Hanzou]

I disagree for two reasons. First, you need to define the venue in which they have an edge. Is it in a sporting competitions? If so, we've got an apples and oranges comparison. Is it in the street? I'll take someone with real world combatives experience over a TKD or BJJ gold medalist.

We also need to define what group of people we're talking about here. I'd definitely rather have a cop or soldier at my side than a Bjj black belt. However, I'd rather have a 5 year Bjj practicioner at my side than a soccer mom who's done Krav Maga for 5 years.

Sparring makes a difference for sport, it makes no difference in real world altercations (and is detrimental) for the reasons I've listed above.

I'm forced to disagree. There's far too many examples of sport-based techniques working just fine in "real world" altercations for that statement to be true. Those sport-based techniques were honed through constant sparring practice.

Secondly, it depends on the school as to how conditioned the practitioner is and not the goal of the school. A martial artist is a person and a person can either be fit or unfit. It is a choice.

Not always. In some styles of MA the intensity is a trademark of the style itself. For example, you're never going to find a Judo school where you're not going to be thrown to the mat. You're never going to find a Muay Thai or Boxing school where they're not making you put on gloves and step into the ring. Because of that we know what to expect from practitioners of those styles.