How good was Bruce Lee??

[jks9199]

So am I.

I'm not a rabid Bruce Lee supporter. But this type of thing occurs all the time. Some armchair quarterback says "Yeah, well if he was that great, why didn't he fight X?" Fill in the blank for X. My guess is that the reason he didn't fight X is because he never though that 30 years later, some 'expert' would think he should have.

Your not making a point, your making an accusation. Since this is directed primarily at me, for you took it upon yourself to focus on my post and specifically refer to me ("Maybe he didn't think he had anything to prove to you.)"..............Apparently reading comprehension is not a strong suit. I didn't stipulate that Lee had to fight anyone, I only wondered out loud why he didn't use the ring to increase his objectives. I wasn't the only one who offered that sentiment, but the only one you felt compelled to vilify.

On the other hand, thanks for the "'expert" label, perhaps I'll reference that when dealing with another discussion and someone takes exception to an open statement.

But was the ring his objective?

At the time, a primary goal of Lee (at least according to what I recall of what I've read) was to be a major international film star. Competing in the ring wouldn't have really helped him very much. Chuck Norris didn't get into movies because of his tournament record. Few (if any!) boxers had moved into movies. And -- take the wrong unlucky kick to the face, and suddenly you've got a badly broken nose or an unsightly scar that could seriously interfere with that goal.

What did competition of any sort have that would have made it a worthwhile effort for Lee? Not really a whole lot, huh?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

With all stated above you can infer that he was (though not professionally) a pretty good fighter. You stated originally that no one knew how good he was.

With any degree of precision, I do not believe that beyond "pretty good" it can really be known. There simply is not enough information. Which is what I mean by no one knows.

I fully agree that in a general sense, we can know that he was certainly quite good by the standards of his day and perhaps by modern standards as well.

But, assuming high caliber opponents, how good?

Solid and consistent, with a winning record?
Exceptional and winning most of his fights (as opposed to simply more wins than losses)?
Or in the top 1 percentile?

A solid and conistent fighter with a winning record against high caliber opponents is really good.

Winning most of your fights against high caliber opponents is exceptionally good and places you in the top ten percent of fighters.

Being in the top one percent is an Ali level fighter (61 fights with 56 wins; 37 by KO, 5 losses) or a Norris level fighter (estimated 183-12-2, or 65-5 depending on the source). Lee certainly had the physical potential and training foundation to be in the top one percent.

My rebuttal was that, that was not true. Many of the professional fighters of his era knew. They all state in one way or another that if he were to fight in the ring that he would have done well. There are many people in today’s world that never fight in the ring but it is only logical to understand that just because you fight and beat everyone that chooses to fight in the ring, does not mean that you can beat every fighter that choose not to fight in the ring.

Your comment about ring fighters who win all or most of their fights not necesarilly being able to beat all fighters who do not choose the ring, is again, something that I agree with in theory, but in practice, modern (meaning about mid 20th century on) pro fighters are training and preparing to fight against resisting opponents for eight hours a day while the rest of us are working eight hours a day. That includes a high level of physical conditionsing, actual training, and researching their opponents to know their strengths and weaknesses. It is their job.

Guys who make MA movies, such as Lee, are spending their eight hours a day training and preparing to make physically demanding movies. That includes a high level of physical conditioning (Lee definitely had that), actual training in the MA that is to be used in the movie, researching potential costars or stunt doubles for said costars with whom the fights can choreographed (Lee picked the best in the biz for his movies, which is part of why they were so good), and honing their acting skills.

Lots of crossover, and had Lee not been a non-competitive fighter of a very high caliber, he would not have been able to make those movies.

But I always stop short of placing movie martial artists on the same plane as fighters as I do competitive fighters. Not because I do not think that it is possible for them to be great fighters (it absolutely is) but because to do so ignores a degree of reality in my opinion.

It just like saying that man X is the strongest man in the world. Well that is only because he is the strongest vs. those who choose to challenge for the title. There are billions of people in the world and a fraction that is too small to ever calculate will choose to challenge for any given anything.

Who is the oldest man in the world? No one really knows. Too many undocumented people in the world to really know. Odds are not the person that is listed as such.

But vs. those that Bruce worked with and those at the time that fought professionally, they knew how good Bruce was compared to the fightes of that time, and they all say he was really good.

I consider 'pretty good' coming from men like Joe Lewis to be a high compliment and certainly a well deserved one, but pretty good is a generality, as is 'would have done well', both of which I agree with but neither of which is conclusive.

I find little to disagree with in most of what you say and I have addressed those areas where my opinion differs above. I'm not so sure that we disagree, so much as that we are looking at it a little differently.

Yes, I believe that one could conclude that Lee was very good by the standards of the top fighters of the day and that he "would have done well" had he chosen to enter the ring, in which case he would have learned all of the various subtleties and gamesmanship tactics that are a part of fighting under more specialized rule sets. And very likely, he would be less famous but well remembered as a superb fighter.

Which is, I think what you are saying as well.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

By the way, ATC, I hope that you don't think that I am trying to nit pick you or jump on you. That is not my intention. I figured I'd clear the air just in case I am coming across that way.

I find the topic interesting, particularly since it is more about how good a fighter Lee was rather than the usual "Could Bruce Lee beat ______ in a real fight?" topic.

I appreciate your responses.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

So am I.

I'm not a rabid Bruce Lee supporter. But this type of thing occurs all the time. Some armchair quarterback says "Yeah, well if he was that great, why didn't he fight X?" Fill in the blank for X. My guess is that the reason he didn't fight X is because he never though that 30 years later, some 'expert' would think he should have.

Your not making a point, your making an accusation. Since this is directed primarily at me, for you took it upon yourself to focus on my post and specifically refer to me ("Maybe he didn't think he had anything to prove to you.)"..............Apparently reading comprehension is not a strong suit. I didn't stipulate that Lee had to fight anyone, I only wondered out loud why he didn't use the ring to increase his objectives. I wasn't the only one who offered that sentiment, but the only one you felt compelled to vilify.

On the other hand, thanks for the "'expert" label, perhaps I'll reference that when dealing with another discussion and someone takes exception to an open statement.

What could Lee have gained by getting in a ring? He was the first real Asian movie star. He was a household name in Throughout Asia, Europe and the USA. He was rich. He was successful. What could he have gained?

Now, what could he have lost? If he got into the ring against someone for whatever reason and lost the fight, his reputation would have suffered greatly. If he had accepted a high profile challenge fight with Chuck Norris (let's say hypothetically) and lost, do you think we'd be talking about it now? Probably not. If he had done this, I think it's very likely that instead of a legend sparking heated conversation, he'd be a trivia question at best. He'd still be talked about, sure, but his legend would be dramatically reduced. More relevant to him, I'm guessing, his marketability would have been reduced.

Asking Bruce Lee to prove his martial ability is like saying that Rock Hudson should have been openly gay. It's about marketability, and common sense as far as I'm concerned. Bottom line is this. If I were Bruce Lee's agent/publicist/PR person or just someone interested in his career whom he trusted, and he was gung ho about fighting, I would have said not just no, but hell no. In his position, he had everything to lose and would have gained nothing by proving his skill in a ring.

 

[ATC]

By the way, ATC, I hope that you don't think that I am trying to nit pick you or jump on you. That is not my intention. I figured I'd clear the air just in case I am coming across that way.

I find the topic interesting, particularly since it is more about how good a fighter Lee was rather than the usual "Could Bruce Lee beat ______ in a real fight?" topic.

I appreciate your responses.

Daniel

Never Daniel. I find you one of the better posters on here and really enjoy your points of view. Very informative and in depth.

 

[ATC]

...Asking Bruce Lee to prove his martial ability is like saying that Rock Hudson should have been openly gay...

You could have come up with a better analogy than that.

 

[Steve]

Never Daniel. I find you one of the better posters on here and really enjoy your points of view. Very informative and in depth.

How good is Daniel?? I mean, really? Is he the best? Has he ever stepped into an open forum in a no holds barred verbal deathmatch?

You could have come up with a better analogy than that.

Hehe. I thought it was a great analogy.

 

[ATC]

How good is Daniel?? I mean, really? Is he the best? Has he ever stepped into an open forum in a no holds barred verbal deathmatch?

Hehe. I thought it was a great analogy.

Ha ha ha...Good one.

 

[Mark Jordan]

I believe Bruce Lee was one of the best we've had. You can tell how good someone is by their students. Dan Inosanto and Taky Kimura were among Lee's students and both are great fighters.

 

[Heavenly Glory]

This kind of question gets asked regularly, and some of the speculation is laughable. Therefore, I won't addd to it.

However, there are a couple interviews I've seen with executives who were present on the set of Bruce's movies.

One tells of some Muay Thai fighters on the set of Big Boss who decided Bruce was "just an actor" and one challenged him. Bruce proceeded to beat the crap out of him.

Another was a guy on the set of Enter the Dragon. Used his big mouth, questioning Bruce's abilities - again Bruce provided the proof that he could indeed, "fight". I've also seen/read Bob wall describing this encounter saying that Lee "kicked the hell out of him".

Lee was also challenged a number of times while in HK during film production. He is reported to have taken some of these guys on and comprehensively tonked them.

I actually have the documentary recorded somewhere - I'll see if I can dig it out and provide the title so anyone wishing to, can see the interviews for themselves.

Additionally, Bruce is known to have been involved in a number of fights while in Hong Kong, along with one of his fellow Wing Chun students. As for not learning the whole of the Wing Chun system, so what? JKD is not Wing Chun. The method of JKD developed by Lee, includes boxing techniques and adapted fencing techniques. It has its own footwork. It does not rely on the "rootedness" that WC people often talk about (having studied WC briefly, I do understand that footwork is a major part of WC).

He was also involved in a boxing tournament in HK which he proceeded to win, fighting much bigger guys.

Successful actor, developing martial artist, why worry about going into the ring?

 

[Cirdan]

As for not learning the whole of the Wing Chun system, so what? JKD is not Wing Chun. The method of JKD developed by Lee, includes boxing techniques and adapted fencing techniques. It has its own footwork. It does not rely on the "rootedness" that WC people often talk about (having studied WC briefly, I do understand that footwork is a major part of WC).

Rooting is not a concept unique to WC. I would think it is central to many, if not most arts.

 

[mook jong man]

Rooting is not a concept unique to WC. I would think it is central to many, if not most arts.

If you ever come to Australia , do yourself a favour and don't mention rooting in conversation.
You might end up with more than what you bargained for.

 

[Tez3]

If you ever come to Australia , do yourself a favour and don't mention rooting in conversation.
You might end up with more than what you bargained for.

:lfao:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Many years ago I heard a comedian do a bit on a conversation he had at a party with someone about Bruce Lee

He was saying Bruce was good but not the best and the other guy said

OH YEAH!!! Well If Bruce Lee were here, and heard you say that, he would punch you in the chest, rip out your heart, show it to you before you died, and then toss into the bean dip.

I have no idea why that has stuck in my head for so many years

 

[Big Don]

Many years ago I heard a comedian do a bit on a conversation he had at a party with someone about Bruce Lee

He was saying Bruce was good but not the best and the other guy said

OH YEAH!!! Well If Bruce Lee were here, and heard you say that, he would punch you in the chest, rip out your heart, show it to you before you died, and then toss into the bean dip.

I have no idea why that has stuck in my head for so many years

Probably nothing more than your obsession with bean dip...

Was Bruce Lee great, in that he inspired countless people to explore the martial arts? With out a doubt.
Was Bruce Lee a great fighter? He didn't fight in competitions, but, neither do I, and I'm not half bad...
Part of me "gets" the obsession many have with Bruce Lee as an icon.
The rest of me, well...

 

[Omar B]

If you ever come to Australia , do yourself a favour and don't mention rooting in conversation.
You might end up with more than what you bargained for.

You gonna explain that?

 

[Big Don]

You gonna explain that?

In Aussie slang, rooting = screwing

 

[mook jong man]

You gonna explain that?

Yes I'll translate into Americanese.

In Australian:

Ow ya goin luv , hows about a root ?

In American:

Yo yo baby , lets you and me hook up later and go back to my crib and do the wild thang.

 

[bluekey88]

Probably becasue that is exactly the sort of thing bruce would not have done.

But hey...this wouldn't be the internetz without rampant and wild speculation. It's practically a religion.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Cirdan]

If you ever come to Australia , do yourself a favour and don't mention rooting in conversation.
You might end up with more than what you bargained for.

Suddenly the titles of some movies I`ve uh, heard of, are clear to me.

Do you have root beer down there by the way?