How good was Bruce Lee??

[Earl Weiss]

Just the fact that someone like Joe Lewis acknowledges that Bruce even trained with him is nothing to dismiss, let alone that this undefeated well known legendary full contact fighter would state that he got popped good quite a few times by him. I really don't see the exaggeration in the statement at all.

Chuck Norris also realtes training with him in one of his books. It is a good stroy about "slow down to speed up".

Norris spoke about his abilities on one of the Bruce Lee Bio shows where he was asked who would win in a fight. Norris starts out saying something like "You have to remeber I was a World Champion Full contact tournament fighter , Bruce wasn't" Then the interviewer tries to pin him down to say he was better, and Norris diverts the story to Lee asking him to be in the Movie and he says to Lee "So who wins" andLee says "I do, it's my movie" Norris says "So you want to beat the world Champion". Lee says "No, I want to kill the world Champion".

 

[BloodMoney]

Norris diverts the story to Lee asking him to be in the Movie and he says to Lee "So who wins" andLee says "I do, it's my movie" Norris says "So you want to beat the world Champion". Lee says "No, I want to kill the world Champion".

hahah thats awesome, cool. Bruce was a machine no doubt, how good was he? Very good. The best? Well in what way? The fastest? Maybe. The tallest? Probably not

Some crazy feats Bruce was routinely capable of in his day:

Lee's phenomenal fitness meant he was capable of performing many exceptional physical feats.[70][71][72][73] The following list includes some of the physical feats that are attributed to Bruce Lee.

• Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second.[74]
• Lee could take in one arm a 75 lb barbell from a standing position with the barbell held flush against his chest and slowly stick his arms out locking them, holding the barbell there for several seconds.[75]
• Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.[72]
• Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger.[73][77][78]
• Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.[79]
• Lee could cause a 300-lb (136.08 kg) bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a sidekick.[73]

Id say that at the time there would be literally a handful of people that could do some of the stuff he could. Now days training, martial arts and indeed humans have evolved, so many things he did in the 70's arent as impressive (or have been bested) by now. Still, he was a machine thats for damn sure.

 

[bribrius]

http://www.onlineprnews.com/news/63...er-hargrave-world-jeet-kune-do-president.html

 

[MA-Caver]

He was no Chuck Norris.

By the same token... Norris was no Bruce Lee.

It's sad I think when a man moves from nothing, to star to legend and finally into myth. So many ideas, conceptions, stories, legends, myths, exaggerations, truths, and truths mixed with lies or misinformation or one story getting mixed up with another.

The fact that people are still talking about him, still speculating, still revering and even following him should say something. Charismatic? Oh my hell yes. A great fighter? :idunno: Bruce had moved from ordinary street fighting punk kid to martial artist to a major star in his home country to the fact that he didn't need to fight anymore.
Yet there are stories abound about how on the sets of his earlier movies he was challenged all the time to fights. Of how he would take these challengers on either between takes or shoots and beat them and then get back to work (or head on home).
That they weren't documented shouldn't be too much of a surprise. Think about it... to the west Hong-Kong cinema was relatively unknown... how would it be that stories of fights between scenes or (daily) shoots were to get out. It would certainly mar the idea that HK Cinema is a professional movie industry in that part of the world now wouldn't it?
So naturally any thing like that would be kept under wraps (pardon the pun).

Trying to speculate how Lee would've done in today's world of MMA cage/ring fighting I think is futile. By the time MMA came to fruition and began it's popularity... Lee would've been too old to compete anyway against the younger fighters of today. He died 37 years ago and now would be 70 yrs old had he lived.
This is not to say that Lee wouldn't have given them a good run for their money. I believe he would've as he was in superb physical condition and had phenomenal strength for a guy his size/build. But chances are he'd been long since retired and had moved into writing, producing, directing and choreographing films... and yeah starring in a few as well. He might've even been in Chan's shoes in the Karate Kid remake.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Whoa! Calm down there Bill. The dude's just trying to make a point.

So am I.

I'm not a rabid Bruce Lee supporter. But this type of thing occurs all the time. Some armchair quarterback says "Yeah, well if he was that great, why didn't he fight X?" Fill in the blank for X. My guess is that the reason he didn't fight X is because he never though that 30 years later, some 'expert' would think he should have.

Bruce Lee wasn't interested in competing in tournaments as far as I can tell. It's not like he tried and failed, he just didn't want to do that, so he didn't. But apparently, that's not good enough; he should have lived his life differently to suit some armchair quarterback 30 years later.

I'm just a fan of people living their lives the way they want to, and if that's a problem for other people 30 years later, well, so what?

 

[Disco]

So am I.

I'm not a rabid Bruce Lee supporter. But this type of thing occurs all the time. Some armchair quarterback says "Yeah, well if he was that great, why didn't he fight X?" Fill in the blank for X. My guess is that the reason he didn't fight X is because he never though that 30 years later, some 'expert' would think he should have.

Your not making a point, your making an accusation. Since this is directed primarily at me, for you took it upon yourself to focus on my post and specifically refer to me ("Maybe he didn't think he had anything to prove to you.)"..............Apparently reading comprehension is not a strong suit. I didn't stipulate that Lee had to fight anyone, I only wondered out loud why he didn't use the ring to increase his objectives. I wasn't the only one who offered that sentiment, but the only one you felt compelled to vilify.

On the other hand, thanks for the "'expert" label, perhaps I'll reference that when dealing with another discussion and someone takes exception to an open statement.

 

[Archtkd]

Manny: See the hornets nest you stirred.

 

[mook jong man]

From what I understand he only did about four years of Wing Chun training and didn't get up to the level of learning the Chum Kiu form.
So whilst he may have had a rudimentary understanding of the Sil Lum Tao structure ( if you will , the chassis of the car ) he still had not learned Chum Kiu ( adding the engine to the car ) learning to co-ordinate and move the body mass as an integrated unit.

So while he may have been blessed with many great attributes such as blinding speed etc there would still have been huge gaps missing in his understanding and knowledge of Wing Chun.

From a Wing Chun perspective , yes he was good , but not demi God status.
From what I have heard , the seniors in Hong Kong say "He could have been really good if he kept up his training ". (in Wing Chun that is ).

 

[MA-Caver]

From what I understand he only did about four years of Wing Chun training and didn't get up to the level of learning the Chum Kiu form.
So whilst he may have had a rudimentary understanding of the Sil Lum Tao structure ( if you will , the chassis of the car ) he still had not learned Chum Kiu ( adding the engine to the car ) learning to co-ordinate and move the body mass as an integrated unit.

So while he may have been blessed with many great attributes such as blinding speed etc there would still have been huge gaps missing in his understanding and knowledge of Wing Chun.

From a Wing Chun perspective , yes he was good , but not demi God status.
From what I have heard , the seniors in Hong Kong say "He could have been really good if he kept up his training ". (in Wing Chun that is ).

To my understanding of the history of the man he had to leave and stop his WC training anyway and go to the U.S. because of some *ahem* trouble in HK. Yet he took with him the teachings of his sifu and applied it as he learned Philosophy in college. He was not only a skilled actor and MA-ist but very intelligent and well read.
It is perhaps he understood his own (personal) need to expand beyond the boundaries set by the WC style and develop his own style (no-style). This of course took years as he became more exposed to different MA arts/styles. I would imagine the long discussions with GM Parker (and other MA-ist he met) had helped formulated the idea in his mind as well.
He understood the need for adaptability to the ever changing dynamics that fighting brings. How one style has it's limits when met against another (as well as it's potential).
He had expressed this idea when he wrote his second film "The Way Of The Dragon" aka "Return Of The Dragon" (the Chuck Norris fight) and showed it in the climatic fight scene at the coliseum, adapting and changing to suit the changing dynamics of the fight he was in.

 

[First Action]

I believe he was a great fighter... he did construct a new 'style', which from personal research/experience, at the time was far better for actual combat ie street fights, than most martial arts out there. Compared to today though... who knows. There are many military styles and eclectic forms that could give his style a good go. As for him personally... i wonder how he would stand up in the octogon against the MMA experts... although there are rules in MMA and I would guess that if he was up against some of those guys that he would kick them straight in the groin or pick up a weapon (thats what Id do anyway )

 

[mook jong man]

To my understanding of the history of the man he had to leave and stop his WC training anyway and go to the U.S. because of some *ahem* trouble in HK. Yet he took with him the teachings of his sifu and applied it as he learned Philosophy in college. He was not only a skilled actor and MA-ist but very intelligent and well read.
It is perhaps he understood his own (personal) need to expand beyond the boundaries set by the WC style and develop his own style (no-style). This of course took years as he became more exposed to different MA arts/styles. I would imagine the long discussions with GM Parker (and other MA-ist he met) had helped formulated the idea in his mind as well.
He understood the need for adaptability to the ever changing dynamics that fighting brings. How one style has it's limits when met against another (as well as it's potential).
He had expressed this idea when he wrote his second film "The Way Of The Dragon" aka "Return Of The Dragon" (the Chuck Norris fight) and showed it in the climatic fight scene at the coliseum, adapting and changing to suit the changing dynamics of the fight he was in.

The problem is if you are only in something for four years , how do you know what the boundaries are set by the style.
In some traditional schools he wouldn't have even been taught kicking yet , as they believe in firm stance foundation before balance is risked with kicking.

Some Grandmasters in Wing Chun still consider you to be a beginner if you have been training for under 10 years.

People think its all about chain punching , but once you get to the other two empty hand forms Chum Kiu and Bil Gee there are hook punches and uppercuts involved , intricate low kicking movements involving deflecting , trapping , hooking , sweeping.

Actually the Bil Gee form is a major departure away from the principles of the system , particularly in the way power is generated and the lack of strict wrist positioning on the centerline as seen in the earlier forms.

Normally power is generated by stance turning of the whole body locked at the waist , but in Bil Gee the upper body is torqued much like a boxer or untrained person would generate power - not being locked at the waist.

The arms are all over place crossing way over the centerline , hands crossing over , things that would normally considered to be major no no's in Wing Chun.

So that in the event the Wing Chun person has made a mistake in combat , he can leave the boundaries set by the system , recover his positioning , and then move back inside the realms of the system again.

A lot of people have never learned this stuff because most of it is not taught until much later.

 

[CanadianCommando]

I think Bruce Lee's greatest legacy was that he did the equivalent of running the four-minute mile.

Someone pointed out that for his day he was very good, perhaps even great, but that fighters and humans have evolved. I agree. I also believe a lot of that evolution was directly attributable to Bruce Lee, if only in the inspirational sense.

Whether or not he was the greatest fighter of his time is irrelevant. He gave us our first taste of what is possible, and opened the gates for future martial artists to take modern martial arts and physical training to new levels.

I doubt any other single martial artist in the last century has had more influence on more budding martial artists. Every kid I knew growing up idolized him, and he influenced us all. How many kids dreamed of being the next Bruce Lee?

In that sense, I would contend that he truly was the greatest martial artist of his day.

 

[Tez3]

I believe he was a great fighter... he did construct a new 'style', which from personal research/experience, at the time was far better for actual combat ie street fights, than most martial arts out there. Compared to today though... who knows. There are many military styles and eclectic forms that could give his style a good go. As for him personally... i wonder how he would stand up in the octogon against the MMA experts... although there are rules in MMA and I would guess that if he was up against some of those guys that he would kick them straight in the groin or pick up a weapon (thats what Id do anyway )

Why on earth would you think (or do) that? I've no idea whether he would have been interested in MMA or would have wanted to compete but I'm sure if he had he would have taken it seriously and fought by the rules of the sport. If he'd wanted to fight in an MMA bout I imagine he'd have trained and prepared himself properly so that he gave a good account of himself.

 

[terryl965]

Bruce Lee would have followed the rule set if he was competing inthe Octagon. Just look at his book The Tao of jeet kun do.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well that is not really true.

With regards to how good he was as a fighter, actually it is. The man wasn't a professional fighter, so the fact that he impressed guys who were not only pro fighters, but top shelf pro fighters, is actually a bigger feather in his cap, though it really doesn't answer the question as to how good a fighter he actually was.

There are some great fighting leagends that did train with Bruce and they all say he was fast, hit hard and could fight.

Legends like Joe Lewis, Ron Harrison, Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Bob Wall, and some others.

There is a documentary out there called "The Man the Myth the Ledgend" and they interviewed people like Joe Lewis and he states from his own mouth, "How do I know Bruce hit hard? Becasue he popped me quite a few times".

You are correct when saying that there are now documented fights. But there are some great fighters that have worked out (trained and sparred) with him.

Yes, but doesn't that kind of state the obvious? We all knew that he was fast; he demonstrated that in his movies. We all knew that he had a high level of technical proficiency and that he could hit hard. It was plain to see that he was highly athletic and very, very fit. And nobody questions whether or not he could fight. Lee could never have had the credibility that he had with the fighters of the day if he couldn't fight.

But the question was not whether or not he could fight, but rather how good a fighter was he? Certainly, he could knock the tar out of most unarmed (and likely quite a few armed) assailants in an SD scenario. But nameless street toughs aren't who people want to compare him to. People want to compare him to men who were fighters by trade and who were at the top level of that trade.

Hi every one, if I recall Bruce Lee died in 1973, in that time I was a 5 years old and know nothing about MA, in those days my heros was the lone ranger and tarzan. Back in the 80's I saw some movies from Bruce and enjoyed it, however I don't know how good was Bruce Lee as a fighter.

Manny

Anecdotes from training partners really don't answer this question beyond confirming that the guy was no joke. But training in the studio and fighting in the movies proved that he was a dedicated trainer, a good movie fighter,and a good stunt man.

Fighting in the ring against the best fighters of your day for all to see, win or lose, is the only real way to measure one's quality as a fighter. There is a lot more to being a fighter, as you know, than simply being fast and being able to hit hard. While I am sure that Lee had many other qualities in abundance, he was untested.

Certainly, his JKD system proved that he knew how to develop and codify a system, establish teaching pedagogy, and communicate that skill set to others, and that those others have achieved success with the methods he developed, so it is safe to say that he knew the anatomy of a fight and had a level of strategic knowledge.

The fact is that Lee was not a fighter by trade. He was a martial arts movie maker (a trade at which he excelled and in many ways, still sets the gold standard for). Had he decided to enter the competative fighting, I have no doubt that he would have at the very least held his own and likely excelled. He was definitely a gifted athlete and pound for pound, probably stronger than anyone of his day.

And yes, I do consider him to have been a 'real deal' movie martial artist (as opposed to say, Tom Cruise, who has made movies with a martial arts theme but does not train in the arts outside of what he needs to to make a movie).

But had Lee become a professional fighter, he would not have had the widespread impact that he did. Kids in middle schools still idolize Bruce Lee. No kids in middle school or high school, and likely few adults, even those who are into martial arts, could tell you who Joe Lewis, Ron Harrison, Mike Stone, or Bill Wallis is. Heck, I recently had to explain to one of my sixteen year old son's friends who Muhammed Ali, arguably the greatest professional fighter of the twentieth century, is.

And while Chuck Norris went on to become a film star and is still a household name, his viability as a martial arts movie maker came to him courtesy of Lee.

Lee transcended being a champion fighter. Lee became a martial arts hero by embodying the champion on screen. It is entirely likely that Lee's movies will still be watched fifty years from now and that posters of him will still adorn the walls of martial arts studios.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I believe he was a great fighter... he did construct a new 'style', which from personal research/experience, at the time was far better for actual combat ie street fights, than most martial arts out there. Compared to today though... who knows. There are many military styles and eclectic forms that could give his style a good go. As for him personally... i wonder how he would stand up in the octogon against the MMA experts... although there are rules in MMA and I would guess that if he was up against some of those guys that he would kick them straight in the groin or pick up a weapon (thats what Id do anyway )

Oh yes, all those handy dandy weapons hanging on the walls of the cage go unnoticed by all of the current fighter. And that groin kick is just soooo magical. If do right, no can defense, right?

By the way, had Lee resorted to such tactics in the octagon, he would A. be warned for the groin shot, disqualified and banned for life over sneaking in and using the weapon (he'd have had to sneak it in because weapons really are not hanging on the walls of the octagon), and likely have ended up in prison for assault with a deadly weapon (which is exactly what would happen to you if you did something that stupid).

And Lee would have gone down in history as a lousy fighter for cheating. Seriously.

Lee was no idiot. If his life were threatened outside of the ring or a movie setting, then certainly, he would have witheld nothing and used any available weapons.

In a competition, as Terry stated, Bruce Lee would have followed the rule set.

Daniel

 

[Gruenewald]

Re-iterating a lot of what has been said already, this is my opinion on the matter:

Bruce Lee was a revolutionary in the field of martial arts, and paved the way for many ideas that were only really popularized many years after his death. For example, he advocated physical fitness just as heavily as technique in a time when "[t]raining [was] one of the most neglected phases of athletics", and "[t]oo much time [was] given to the development of skill and too little to the development of the individual for participation" (The Tao of Jeet Kune Do). He inspired people to live healthy. He also developed a system that encouraged individuals to develop for themselves a path to "enlightenment", so to speak. He popularized martial arts in the Western world and gave new life to their study. Not only did he inspire martial artists, but people in every walk of life to achieve more than they thought they could achieve. The martial arts film industry was also impacted greatly by his dedication. He achieved SO much, and all in a time when racial prejudice was still a factor.

He never fought competitively, and we often wonder why, placing him in countless "what if" scenarios wondering "who would win in a fight" between Lee and a myriad of "proven" fighters of the time, or even fighters of today's time. The reality is that he most likely would not be able to defeat such fighters due to a variety of different reasons (his comparatively small size, or the fact that he lived before some very important developments in the world of martial arts, for example). It's unrealistic to pit him against people twice his size or people who live in such modern times who have access to things Bruce never would have. The people he interacted with (Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis, etc.) claimed that he could fight, however. From this we can conclude that he was quite possibly,pound-for-pound one of the strongest and even the "best" fighters in his respective time period.

And of course, because of his various accomplishments as aforementioned, regardless of fighting ability, he will live in the hearts of countless people as one of the greatest martial artists (with all the meaning that that term suggests) to have ever lived.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My apology if this has already been posted, I will admit right here I did not read through every single post in this thread.

There are accounts of alleged fights with various challengers while Bruce Lee was filming in Hong Kong. There was an alleged film of multiple fights by various challengers while filming the “Big Boss” and he allegedly beat them all. But this alleged film was destroyed because it was more of a nuisance to filming than an addition to the movie.

There is also an alleged challenge to Carter Wong that was allegedly made by Bruce Lee that Bruce Lee backed out of and then there is the big fight between Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man but then depending on which side of the story you want to believe (and in this case there appears to be more than 2) Bruce may or may not be a great fighter.

The thing to really focus in there is that most of this is alleged and beyond that the stories are conflicting.

But with that said I do believe Bruce Lee was a good fighter, as to how good he was that is only speculation at this point

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Re-iterating a lot of what has been said already, this is my opinion on the matter:

Bruce Lee was a revolutionary in the field of martial arts, and paved the way for many ideas that were only really popularized many years after his death. For example, he advocated physical fitness just as heavily as technique in a time when "[t]raining [was] one of the most neglected phases of athletics", and "[t]oo much time [was] given to the development of skill and too little to the development of the individual for participation" (The Tao of Jeet Kune Do). He inspired people to live healthy. He also developed a system that encouraged individuals to develop for themselves a path to "enlightenment", so to speak. He popularized martial arts in the Western world and gave new life to their study. Not only did he inspire martial artists, but people in every walk of life to achieve more than they thought they could achieve. The martial arts film industry was also impacted greatly by his dedication. He achieved SO much, and all in a time when racial prejudice was still a factor.

QFT!

He never fought competitively, and we often wonder why, placing him in countless "what if" scenarios wondering "who would win in a fight" between Lee and a myriad of "proven" fighters of the time, or even fighters of today's time.

I don't wonder.

If you have a career doing one thing, you generally do not have the time to devote to another full time career. The level of training necessary for Lee to make his movies, the time spend honing is acting skills the the degree needed for his roles, and the time spent choreagraphing the fights and stunts in his movies all precluded him being a competitive fighter.

Lee's chosen field was movie making. That was his choice.

Dolph Lundgren said that he was twenty five minutes away from signing his professional boxing contract when he was notified that he had the part of Ivan Drago in Rocky IV. His friends advised him to take the movie role because "we like your face the way that it is." He already was a champion fighter and chose to make movies. The carreer proved much more lucrative for him and certainly exposed him to less risk of serious injury.

People make their career choices based on their needs and desires and upon their qualifications. Lee had the qualifications to make great martial arts movies and he definitely had the desire. He did what he wanted to do and the world was enriched in his doing so.

The reality is that he most likely would not be able to defeat such fighters due to a variety of different reasons (his comparatively small size, or the fact that he lived before some very important developments in the world of martial arts, for example). It's unrealistic to pit him against people twice his size or people who live in such modern times who have access to things Bruce never would have.

Had Lee gone the rout of the tournament fighter, his size would not have been a factor: he would have been fighting people in his weight class, so he would have fought against and been compared to people in his weight class of the day, and had he risen to the top levels of his time period, we'd be comparing him to top fighters of his weight category, probably guys like Sugaray Leonard (middleweight) or Floyd Mayweather (who I believe is welterweight) depending on what weight he stayed at in competition; he started off at about 130 and ended up at 165.

The people he interacted with (Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis, etc.) claimed that he could fight, however. From this we can conclude that he was quite possibly,pound-for-pound one of the strongest and even the "best" fighters in his respective time period.

Lee could have been 'the next big thing' in fighting had he become a competitive fighter. Certainly, he was probably one of the strongest pound for pound men alive in his day. As a fighter, he had all of the necessary tools to do the job, and it would have been very exciting had he done so, but he decided on a different job instead, and the rest, as they say, is history.

And of course, because of his various accomplishments as aforementioned, regardless of fighting ability, he will live in the hearts of countless people as one of the greatest martial artists (with all the meaning that that term suggests) to have ever lived.

Absolutely!

Daniel

 

[ATC]

With regards to how good he was as a fighter, actually it is. The man wasn't a professional fighter, so the fact that he impressed guys who were not only pro fighters, but top shelf pro fighters, is actually a bigger feather in his cap, though it really doesn't answer the question as to how good a fighter he actually was.


Yes, but doesn't that kind of state the obvious? We all knew that he was fast; he demonstrated that in his movies. We all knew that he had a high level of technical proficiency and that he could hit hard. It was plain to see that he was highly athletic and very, very fit. And nobody questions whether or not he could fight. Lee could never have had the credibility that he had with the fighters of the day if he couldn't fight.

But the question was not whether or not he could fight, but rather how good a fighter was he? Certainly, he could knock the tar out of most unarmed (and likely quite a few armed) assailants in an SD scenario. But nameless street toughs aren't who people want to compare him to. People want to compare him to men who were fighters by trade and who were at the top level of that trade.


Anecdotes from training partners really don't answer this question beyond confirming that the guy was no joke. But training in the studio and fighting in the movies proved that he was a dedicated trainer, a good movie fighter,and a good stunt man.

Fighting in the ring against the best fighters of your day for all to see, win or lose, is the only real way to measure one's quality as a fighter. There is a lot more to being a fighter, as you know, than simply being fast and being able to hit hard. While I am sure that Lee had many other qualities in abundance, he was untested.

Certainly, his JKD system proved that he knew how to develop and codify a system, establish teaching pedagogy, and communicate that skill set to others, and that those others have achieved success with the methods he developed, so it is safe to say that he knew the anatomy of a fight and had a level of strategic knowledge.

The fact is that Lee was not a fighter by trade. He was a martial arts movie maker (a trade at which he excelled and in many ways, still sets the gold standard for). Had he decided to enter the competative fighting, I have no doubt that he would have at the very least held his own and likely excelled. He was definitely a gifted athlete and pound for pound, probably stronger than anyone of his day.

And yes, I do consider him to have been a 'real deal' movie martial artist (as opposed to say, Tom Cruise, who has made movies with a martial arts theme but does not train in the arts outside of what he needs to to make a movie).

But had Lee become a professional fighter, he would not have had the widespread impact that he did. Kids in middle schools still idolize Bruce Lee. No kids in middle school or high school, and likely few adults, even those who are into martial arts, could tell you who Joe Lewis, Ron Harrison, Mike Stone, or Bill Wallis is. Heck, I recently had to explain to one of my sixteen year old son's friends who Muhammed Ali, arguably the greatest professional fighter of the twentieth century, is.

And while Chuck Norris went on to become a film star and is still a household name, his viability as a martial arts movie maker came to him courtesy of Lee.

Lee transcended being a champion fighter. Lee became a martial arts hero by embodying the champion on screen. It is entirely likely that Lee's movies will still be watched fifty years from now and that posters of him will still adorn the walls of martial arts studios.

Daniel

With all stated above you can infer that he was (though not professionally) a pretty good fighter. You stated originally that no one knew how good he was. My rebuttal was that, that was not true. Many of the professional fighters of his era knew. They all state in one way or another that if he were to fight in the ring that he would have done well. There are many people in today’s world that never fight in the ring but it is only logical to understand that just because you fight and beat everyone that chooses to fight in the ring, does not mean that you can beat every fighter that choose not to fight in the ring.

It just like saying that man X is the strongest man in the world. Well that is only because he is the strongest vs. those who choose to challenge for the title. There are billions of people in the world and a fraction that is too small to ever calculate will choose to challenge for any given anything.

Who is the oldest man in the world? No one really knows. Too many undocumented people in the world to really know. Odds are not the person that is listed as such.

But vs. those that Bruce worked with and those at the time that fought professionally, they knew how good Bruce was compared to the fightes of that time, and they all say he was really good.