How easy is it to KO or kill your target with a completely unexpected sneak attack from behind?

[drop bear]

That's a soldier's life though, being an assassin isn't really the work of an infantry soldier it's more of a spec forces/sneaky beaky type of thing.

you could substitute assassinate for ambush and have pretty much what op is getting at.

I mean if you wanted to give the guy a break

 

[drop bear]

I've never heard of RBSD so I'll have to look that up.

I've never truly sucker punched someone, but I have attacked people before while they were off guard. Like, they were making fun of me and while they were busy laughing, a lunged and hit their faces.

I was a kid during those times, pre-pubescent, so my punches weren't that strong and I wasn't trained at anything. The only time when I truly hurt an opponent from a sucker punch was when I punched him 5 more times after the initial punch. The other times I did it, it was with a single punch, and at best they got stunned for 3 seconds.

In order for one punch to work, it has to be hard and it has to hit the right spot. I'm sure if Tyson or Foreman decided to sucker punch someone, they would knock them out. Power and Precision = Death. Frailty and Clumsiness = Your death.

you could look up the knock out game or any street fight compilation and see that sucker punches are high percentage.

And yeah using the judo is generally the better option.

 

[drop bear]

Unless you're in the Military and you were ordered to assassinate someone.

Martial Art is about fighting. I think people need to realize that the original, historical purpose of martial arts was to win in a fight.

I still don't think it is so much the case. Sumo,wrestling,boxing are old and they are about being seen winning a fight.

you don't do capoeira to fight someone. You do it to look awesome when you fight somone.

 

[elder999]

Humans are pretty fragile. If you know how, killing someone with a sneak attack is easy-even empty handed, if you know how. Use a knife, and it's really easy, EASY, and you (mostly) can't train to defend against it...

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm… you're still quite new here, so I'm going to try to be gentle… That said, perhaps a small word to the wise is in order here.

Oh, but I'm not. lol

Yeah, actually, you are. Quite a bit. We'll cover it as we go...

Muay Thai originated in Thai and Cambodian armymen. It was their version of the Marine Corps Martial Arts System.

Er, no. Muay Thai is claimed to be descendant from muay boran, which again makes claims of being a more "military" style… however, that claim simply doesn't hold up to any real scrutiny. The argument is that, as muay boran is more "brutal" than muay Thai, it must be more for the military ("more lethal", whatever that means…). Thing is that the methods found are the last thing that would be relied upon in any military group… and muay Thai, when all's said and done, was developed as a competitive form, not for actual combat (real world combat). Is it a serious form, and is it powerful? Sure. But it's original aim was not for combative usage outside of competition… and even there, the combative application was really almost incidental in terms of the real original aim of the sport (here's a clue… watch what happens before the matches…)

Jujutsu came from the Samurai.

Well, you're going to have to be far, far, far more specific there… what do you mean by "jujutsu"? And what do you mean by "samurai"? How does that make the aim "to win a fight"? Can you give case studies to support your comment there?

What I'm saying is that "jujutsu" is a very vague term… as is "samurai"… both cover an incredible amount of ground, which include many, many "purposes" and aims. So, to answer it properly, you'd need to be able to describe exactly how (and why) particular ryu-ha developed. And, I gotta tell you, in many cases, it wasn't to do with "winning fights"… that might be part of it, but it wasn't even the most common reason. In many cases, it was political… or commercial. In other cases, it was to do with giving an overall education for a military leader…

So let's take a case-study, yeah? What can you tell me about the development of the hade and kogusoku of Takenouchi Ryu? What do you know of the yawaragei of Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu? How about the origins of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu? Something a little more modern? What is the reason for the Hontai Yoshin Ryu restructuring the Takagi Ryu to create a new line? How about the Moto-ha Yoshin Ryu?

Are any of these just to "win a fight"? Or is it something else?

Boxing has been there since Sumeria and was banned at 393 AD by the Roman empire because it was deemed too bloody... even for gladiatorial standards.

Well, it's not entirely fair to suggest that boxing (as it is now) is really the same thing as the ancient forms, despite the connections often made. Modern boxing really traces itself back to prize-fighting in England, namely to a person named James Figg… with notable persons introducing various rule sets, such as the Broughton rules, until we got to the true origin of modern boxing, the Marques of Queensbury Rules. As a result, no, boxing (as understood and meant today) has not been there "since Sumeria", nor was it banned… a different form of ritual competitive combat forms are what existed at the time.

I've done my homework a long time ago.

Yeah… you might want to hit the books again, then.

Look, to be fair here, I've been involved in this kind of thing since well before you were born… that's just the reality… and I'm not the longest serving person here. But in my time, there have been a number of things that I've learnt… one of which is that, frankly, most of what you learn early in your studies is, well, wrong. If you take what you learn early in, you don't have enough understanding and knowledge to create a real filter to figure out what's real and what's somewhat questionable… and that's normal. It's the way everyone learns initially. The trick is to constantly be open to, and looking for, more and better information… improving your understanding as you go.

What I'm saying is that you may feel you've done your homework, but to be honest, you've got a lot left to cover… and I'd start by reviewing what you think you know.

I still don't think it is so much the case. Sumo,wrestling,boxing are old and they are about being seen winning a fight.

Partially… when it comes down to it, yeah, there is a real aspect of being seen… but it's not so much about being seen by other people. Many combat sports, including sumo and wrestling (as well as early forms of boxing, mentioned above) were developed as ritual forms of offering (Shinto for sumo, for example).

you don't do capoeira to fight someone. You do it to look awesome when you fight somone.

Yeah… Capoeira's another interesting example… realistically, it wasn't developed to win fights at all… what's taught as Capoeira these days is very much a fairly modern creation (being able to be traced back to two Maestro's in the 1920's, who came up with the methods themselves). There is, when all's said and done, no real connection between what's seen as Capoeira today, and the records of Capoeirista's from the 17th Century (which didn't give much detail about the physical techniques used… but did imply a great emphasis on blade and stick work, and nothing about the acrobatic kicking methods seen today). So what's is really about?

Well, it was a way of expressing Brazilian culture, more than anything else. Not "win a fight"… but more to preserve traditional Brazilian music and instruments…

 

[jks9199]

Chris -- can you point out some sources for the capoeira material you mentioned? What I've heard of is the classic "hiding fighting methods in dance" story, though that's from capoeira people themselves, and they may well just be repeating what they've been told, like so many of the "flying kicks to knock people off horses" stuff or monks learning kung fu stories.

 

[drop bear]

Chris -- can you point out some sources for the capoeira material you mentioned? What I've heard of is the classic "hiding fighting methods in dance" story, though that's from capoeira people themselves, and they may well just be repeating what they've been told, like so many of the "flying kicks to knock people off horses" stuff or monks learning kung fu stories.

look up mestre bimba. Who was kind of capoeiras kano.

 

[drop bear]

The blade stick work is macelele.

 

[WaterGal]

you could substitute assassinate for ambush and have pretty much what op is getting at.

I mean if you wanted to give the guy a break

Yeah, but how often do soldiers in any modern military force run up and sucker-punch somebody from behind in a warzone? I mean, really, I don't think that's going to be an effective way to ambush ISIS guys armed with AK-47s and explosives.

But, I think BeeBrian is probably a young guy - the stuff he says reminds of things I hear from middle school-age guys. So I'm willing to give him a break on that. Lord knows I said some dumb stuff on the internet when I was a teenager.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, but how often do soldiers in any modern military force run up and sucker-punch somebody from behind in a warzone? I mean, really, I don't think that's going to be an effective way to ambush ISIS guys armed with AK-47s and explosives.

But, I think BeeBrian is probably a young guy - the stuff he says reminds of things I hear from middle school-age guys. So I'm willing to give him a break on that. Lord knows I said some dumb stuff on the internet when I was a teenager.

there are a whole bunch of styles out there based on the idea soldiers do exactly that. Krav anyone?

I sneak up on people as a security guard. I don't punch them though.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Lord knows I said some dumb stuff on the internet when I was a teenager.

This is where I got lucky. There was no internet when I was a teenager. If there had been ... let's just say that some of what I would have written would have been just about as stupid as anything that has been said on this forum.

 

[jks9199]

This is where I got lucky. There was no internet when I was a teenager. If there had been ... let's just say that some of what I would have written would have been just about as stupid as anything that has been said on this forum.

Oh, yeah.

I'm quite thankful that some of my youthful idiocy was lost to the dark recesses of time -- except perhaps for the memories of friends. Who have hopefully forgotten much...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Absolutely thankful like Tony and you!

 

[Tez3]

But, I think BeeBrian is probably a young guy -

I'm sure he is, he also didn't take as a criticism what I wrote, he's open minded and willing to learn as I'm sure we can learn things from him.

 

[chinto]

The primary danger of a sucker punch or sneak attack isn't that it knocks you out cold or kills you instantly. (Although a one-punch knockout is much more likely when the victim doesn't see it coming.)

The danger is that the victim starts out the fight hurt, disoriented, confused, off-balance, and with his structure thoroughly compromised. This gives a huge advantage to the attacker, who can continue with a barrage of attacks without worrying about the victim defending or counter-attacking effectively.

If weapons are involved, it gets much worse. Getting stabbed in the kidneys probably won't kill you instantly (like you see in the movies). instantly. Very likely, you won't even know you've been stabbed. You'll think someone just punched you. That won't be a lot of consolation when you fall over from internal bleeding 15 minutes later.

correct in general. if a knife or other weapon is involved and the attacker understands human anatomy you are in deadly deadly peril! a punch not as much generally. the big problem is as said above, in that the victim starts out at a psychological disadvantage and perhaps some physical disadvantage from the start of the fight. but if some one puts a knife or dagger in your kidney, you do NOT fall over from internal bleeding in 15 minutes!!!!! you will be in so much pain you can not scream! you will be dead in less then 20 seconds if he hit the kidney or the renal artery! if he cuts your throat properly in less then 10 unconscious and dead in less then 12!

 

[Dirty Dog]

correct in general. if a knife or other weapon is involved and the attacker understands human anatomy you are in deadly deadly peril! a punch not as much generally. the big problem is as said above, in that the victim starts out at a psychological disadvantage and perhaps some physical disadvantage from the start of the fight. but if some one puts a knife or dagger in your kidney, you do NOT fall over from internal bleeding in 15 minutes!!!!! you will be in so much pain you can not scream! you will be dead in less then 20 seconds if he hit the kidney or the renal artery! if he cuts your throat properly in less then 10 unconscious and dead in less then 12!

Your statements are overly broad or flat out incorrect.
Over the years, I've treated literally hundreds of people who've been stabbed. Personally, I lost an eye to a knife wound.
I can't think of a single person who was "in so much pain you can not scream".
While completely severing the renal artery CAN be rapidly fatal, it is not always so. A significant portion will tamponade, which can prevent death for a shockingly long period of time. I recall one patient who was stabbed in the left ventricle, and the tamponade allowed him to fight with the paramedics all the way to the hospital. Most lacerations of the kidney are quite survivable, despite what you've apparently been told, and will rarely result in rapid death.
Cutting the carotid will likely result in rapid death, but good luck with this. It's not nearly as easy as movies make it seem. The carotid is much deeper than people think. Most people I've seen with their throats cut had injuries to the trachea (survivable for quite some time) and external jugular (which will bleed like mad, but won't kill you in 10 seconds. And is easily compressible.). Your best hope of actually hitting the carotid isn't actually to cut the throat, but to stab into the side of the neck, pulling forward on the withdrawal.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

but if some one puts a knife or dagger in your kidney, you do NOT fall over from internal bleeding in 15 minutes!!!!! you will be in so much pain you can not scream!

I'm sure there are spots a knife could hit which would cause immediate intense pain. However, a common thread I've read in accounts of real life stabbings is that often the victim didn't know they had been stabbed until later. If they felt anything at all, they thought they had just been punched.

 

[MaxRob]

I agr

 

[MaxRob]

I agree not exactly the honorourable sulution but in a dishonorable situation may be a a solution to put vermin to their place!

 

[Dirty Dog]

I agree not exactly the honorourable sulution but in a dishonorable situation may be a a solution to put vermin to their place!

The concept of honor is only applicable to sporting competition.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.