How do your forms/katas progress?

[hoshin1600]

I do believe that Chinese forms can contain subtleties that may mean that not all applications are obvious.

agreed.
in the 1984 the head of the American Uechi- Ryu George Mattson took a group of people to China to dig deeper into the roots of Uechi - Ryu. they didnt find what they were looking for. there was a feeling that combative Kung fu was still very secretive and forbidden. George made a comment that we may have very well met some of the people we were looking for but no one would admit it in public under the eye of the government.
here is some home video of the trip. at about 1:50 in the are in the public square, notice the dress of everyone there...it is still very much Mao's Communist China.

 

[Flying Crane]

agreed.
in the 1984 the head of the American Uechi- Ryu George Mattson took a group of people to China to dig deeper into the roots of Uechi - Ryu. they didnt find what they were looking for. there was a feeling that combative Kung fu was still very secretive and forbidden. George made a comment that we may have very well met some of the people we were looking for but no one would admit it in public under the eye of the government.
here is some home video of the trip. at about 1:50 in the are in the public square, notice the dress of everyone there...it is still very much Mao's Communist China.

Yes, it was a very ugly time in China when people spied on their neighbors and people disappeared for not complying with government mandates. Mandates included not training traditional fighting methods.

There were other, older reasons for secrecy as well, pre-dating the Cultural Revolution. Your fighting skills could actually save your life, so you did not show them to the public or to those you did not trust by very well. It is only in the modern age when our fighting skills are not generally needed to save our lives, when we can feel free to openly share them with the public.

Some people still have an attitude that “it isn’t for sale” and so feel no need to share it openly. If they don’t want to share it with you, then you simply will not see it. Our culture has a hard time with that, we tend to feel we have the right to get anything we want. It ain’t so.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

ok, you’ve attached videos for a Chen Taiji sword form and compare with a Korean dao instead of a Chinese dao, so it’s not an exactly accurate comparison. What you will see in manny examples is both jian and dao done in the context of Modern Wushu as I explained earlier. Both weapons have their Modern variation and can be very different from the proper combative methods.

The issue is less straight forward than that. A dao is easier to learn so was easier to train troops with. However, that does not mean that the jian is not a military weapon. A sword was a sidearm, meaning it was a backup weapon. The bulk of troops would be carrying polearms, they are much cheaper and easier to make and require far less training. So when equipping and training the masses for your army, that is where you get the most bang for your buck. But the sword still had a place on the battlefield even if it was carried by the officers or those of wealth or higher social rank.

There is also a difference between a civilians jian and a military jian. The civilian could carry a lighter weapon as personal defense was less likely to need to defeat an armored enemy. A military jian was more robust and needs to survive the rigors of the battlefield and be able to defeat armor. Techniques and methods would also vary accordingly.

Yeah I couldn't be bothered going through all the shaolin dao forms waving flimsy pretend swords around and so settled on the first video that vaguely resembled what I meant. Even though it is Korean, the movements are very similar to the dao form I learned.

I haven't seen any evidence of Jian being used by soldiers at all, even by officers. I always assumed Jian were the Chinese equivalent of European Rapiers, used by upper class gentlemen for self-defence and dueling but rarely used on the battlefield. I believe the Jian and Dao forms were created afterwards to reflect their usual purpose.

 

[hoshin1600]

Abstractions are a basis for improvising, rather than for specific repetition.

i am not sure i follow what you are saying here. let me explain how i see abstraction.
as example ....in the kata there may be a left hand upward rising action. this could be utilized for a wide variety of things. so i could agree it may have a link to improvisation but the action, by not defining it, is an abstraction of movement. it could be seven or more different things. but the principal of movement is the same across all of these many applications so the lesson in the abstraction is not "when this happens do this move" but rather this is how the unit of the body should work for actions like this one. the abstraction points to the principal not the application.

EDIT: but then how would you know what was application and what was abstract principal unless your where one of the select few who was taught "The secrets"

 

[skribs]

i do not mean to be condescending in any way but to view forms as a string of blocks, kicks and punches is the most superficial way to view them. that is not your fault. it is the way TKD approaches their art. there can be so very much more going on in them.

I don't think you are being condescending. It's something I've struggled with. Even when I look at the other forms, and I see more than just punches and kicks, I see grappling moves...but not much more than that.

I do wish I connected to the forms themselves a bit better. However, the forms are not the entirety of the curriculum. We also do punch combinations, kicking techniques, and train scenario-based self defense and Olympic-style sparring. If it was just the forms I'd feel it was lacking.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeah I couldn't be bothered going through all the shaolin dao forms waving flimsy pretend swords around and so settled on the first video that vaguely resembled what I meant. Even though it is Korean, the movements are very similar to the dao form I learned.

I haven't seen any evidence of Jian being used by soldiers at all, even by officers. I always assumed Jian were the Chinese equivalent of European Rapiers, used by upper class gentlemen for self-defence and dueling but rarely used on the battlefield. I believe the Jian and Dao forms were created afterwards to reflect their usual purpose.

I saw a book once, can’t remember the title or author, that discussed the difference between civilian and soldier jian. There is an inherent hint in the fact that jian come in a variety of levels of robustness. And I am excluding the Modern Wushu toys from my assessment.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't think you are being condescending. It's something I've struggled with. Even when I look at the other forms, and I see more than just punches and kicks, I see grappling moves...but not much more than that.

I do wish I connected to the forms themselves a bit better. However, the forms are not the entirety of the curriculum. We also do punch combinations, kicking techniques, and train scenario-based self defense and Olympic-style sparring. If it was just the forms I'd feel it was lacking.

In my opinion, not all forms are created equally. Some are poorly or superficially designed.

That is not a criticism aimed at TKD, as I have not studied the method and do not know the forms.

My forms have a lot of inherent rooting and grounding coupled with technique practice. But of course you need to understand how that works in order to practice it properly. Even the very “best” form could be butchered into superficiality if one does not know how to approach the practice properly.

 

[skribs]

In my opinion, not all forms are created equally. Some are poorly or superficially designed.

That is not a criticism aimed at TKD, as I have not studied the method and do not know the forms.

My forms have a lot of inherent rooting and grounding coupled with technique practice. But of course you need to understand how that works in order to practice it properly. Even the very “best” form could be butchered into superficiality if one does not know how to approach the practice properly.

What is "rooting and grounding"?

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I saw a book once, can’t remember the title or author, that discussed the difference between civilian and soldier jian. There is an inherent hint in the fact that jian come in a variety of levels of robustness. And I am excluding the Modern Wushu toys from my assessment.

Interesting. I guess that makes sense in a way. Do you remember if the book discussed a particular period in history?

 

[Hyoho]

i do understand what your saying. i might not have communicated well on my part about karate. the meanings behind most of karate kata has been lost.(even though most will not admit it) perhaps they were never known by the Okinawans and certainly would be lost in transmission to the main land Japanese. so where in Koryu you have the ability to differentiate between henka and uchi-soto (not sure if you actually use that term that way, but hope you get my meaning) in the waza. the bunkai for karate is very subjective. which can have drastic influence on the preformance. no one within a Ryu can define definitively what the bunkai would be. that is a big problem.

Yes I understand what you mean. With me mostly doing sword arts now its more clearly defined.

Some founders were good enough to have even written about the philosophical values that we should adopt as well. so our accent has always been on preservation. Its essential to learn a fundamental, 'then' add character to it as you advance and not the other way round.

 

[Flying Crane]

Interesting. I guess that makes sense in a way. Do you remember if the book discussed a particular period in history?

Sorry, I do not remember. Saw it in a bookstore (remember those?) and didn’t buy it for some reason which was strange because I was buying lots of martial arts books at the time.

 

[Flying Crane]

What is "rooting and grounding"?

Understanding how to “dig” your feet into the ground and use the strength of your legs to brace the body and drive torso rotation as a way to power your techniques, and such. It prevents your punches from only being driven by the arm and shoulder, and harnesses the greater strength of the legs and full body.

Our method relies on that a lot, so we are always doing that in our forms, no matter what else is going on. It is a way of practicing that foundational stuff in a mobile context, which is more difficult than simply throwing the same punch over and over from a static position. so one issue in practicing forms is that it raises the level of difficulty to the next level, as your skill increases. Rooting is easy if it is just one technique. But if you are doing 100 movements in a form where you are stepping for every move, making that adjustment and still being able to root with your technique becomes more difficult.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can kneel and punch faster than I can soccer kick, especially with no run-up. If you're talking about dribbling, then yes a soccer kick would be faster, but it would have no power to speak of and I might as well be tickling them.

Kneeling is less complex than kicking, or heck even stepping.

If I was to teach the technique to kick to the ribs, I would have teach people to go against kicking training I've given them, because in a normal kick you bring the knee up instead of bringing the foot back. With a soccer kick, it's the opposite. With a kneel and a punch, every single student I've ever taught has figured out you put your knee down, you ball up your fist and punch just like if you were standing up.

I've spent a LOT of time teaching people to take someone down, but once they're down, kneeling and punching has been automatic, when I say "put your knee down and punch them".



Our self defense usually ends with:

• Wide horse stance at a 45-degree angle, easy to put the nearer knee down
• Front stance next to attacker, easy to put the knee down

Very rarely are we in an upright position, as we prefer to spread our base for balance and power. The few times we are, we usually have a wrist lock and will go for a break instead of a strike.

If we're in an upright position it's usually because we've done something wrong.

Then we agree on that latter point. Position can change the relative complexity of moves. Like you, I can’t think of many times I’d be in good kicking position after grappling. The mechanics of structure for grappling make it unlikely.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not sure you are ever going to get much force in a downward punch? , you get some from dropping your body weight as you go in the squat,but the punch its self,? The mechanics are all wrong

You can generate a lot of downward force with the weight drop. Good timing lends that to the punch.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

that only because you don't practise soccer kicks, if you did you would find it a vast improvement on you current thing,

its a,shame you don't live closer, we could have some fun, with you trying to kneel down and punch a ball, faster than i can kick the ball away from you, that should prove the point

or we could see if you can punch the ball 80 yards, that should sort out which is more powerful

If you are both in a low grappling (takedown finish) position, he’ll generate power faster than you.

 

[jobo]

If you are both in a low grappling (takedown finish) position, he’ll generate power faster than you.

why would i be in a low grappling position? . My opoinent is lying on the floor?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i am not sure i follow what you are saying here. let me explain how i see abstraction.
as example ....in the kata there may be a left hand upward rising action. this could be utilized for a wide variety of things. so i could agree it may have a link to improvisation but the action, by not defining it, is an abstraction of movement. it could be seven or more different things. but the principal of movement is the same across all of these many applications so the lesson in the abstraction is not "when this happens do this move" but rather this is how the unit of the body should work for actions like this one. the abstraction points to the principal not the application.

EDIT: but then how would you know what was application and what was abstract principal unless your where one of the select few who was taught "The secrets"

Actually, you said pretty much what I meant. Since it’s abstract, it is just training movement patterns for future improvisation. That actually frees it from being tied to a specific application.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

why would i be in a low grappling position? . My opoinent is lying on the floor?

You just put them there. If by grappling, that often ends with bodyweight low, in either a wide stance or kneeling. That’s far from ideal for getting off a kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

in the 1984 the head of the American Uechi- Ryu George Mattson took a group of people to China to dig deeper into the roots of Uechi - Ryu.

This remind me about that time (1984?), I helped Ronald Lindsey (9th Dan) to translate a white crane book for him. Later on he gave me a Japanese stick/sword that I still love it very much. Ronald believed his Karate had strong influence from the Chinese white crane system. That was about 34 years ago.

 

[jobo]

You just put them there. If by grappling, that often ends with bodyweight low, in either a wide stance or kneeling. That’s far from ideal for getting off a kick.

my instinct, from hard experiance, is being on the floor is a bad idea, if i end up there its a mistake and one that should quickly be rectified, maintain mobility at all costs. I could certainly take the opportunity to punch him from a kneeling position, but there's not stopping power. In the punch from that position, and his hands are likely in the way, mess up his nose perhaps, but id be better punching th groin if I've got a choice.. So punch , stand up and kick or just stand up and kick, the kicks the man stopper, , so the sooner the better.

you could certainly find your body position is less than idea for a kick, but the very skill of the soccer kick is adjusting your body position quickly so you can deliver, it matters not if the first kick lays him out, as long as its hard enough to knock the wind out of him, you then have plenty of time to deliver any num.e r of kicks from any position you choose,,
he is on the floor I'm stood up, that is not going to be allowed to change