How do you study your Kata / Forms?

[DocWard]

One of my favorite quotes from my first NGA teacher: "Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast." It's a reference to exactly what you're talking about - using slow movement to get it right (and smooth) so "normal" speed is faster.

I first heard that in the military. It goes hand-in-hand with the "crawl-walk-run" method we used as a way of learning, practicing and mastering skills. As a competitive shooter, I have been making use of it as well, focusing on slowing down, relaxing and getting shots on target. Interestingly, most of the better shooters I know use a combination. They use the "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" mantra, but they will also shoot events other than the big ones at the ragged edge of speed. The theory being they push it to the point of missing, making mistakes in practice, then slow it down just slightly for the big matches. It seems to work.

In regard to kata (and techniques), since returning I still feel I am in the "crawl / walk" or "slow" phase, trying to smooth things out so I can get to up and running. This thread has served as a reminder that I do need to focus on doing both those things.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why not? Most things you do fast, can be done slow.

This is my favor.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I first heard that in the military. It goes hand-in-hand with the "crawl-walk-run" method we used as a way of learning, practicing and mastering skills. As a competitive shooter, I have been making use of it as well, focusing on slowing down, relaxing and getting shots on target. Interestingly, most of the better shooters I know use a combination. They use the "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" mantra, but they will also shoot events other than the big ones at the ragged edge of speed. The theory being they push it to the point of missing, making mistakes in practice, then slow it down just slightly for the big matches. It seems to work.

In regard to kata (and techniques), since returning I still feel I am in the "crawl / walk" or "slow" phase, trying to smooth things out so I can get to up and running. This thread has served as a reminder that I do need to focus on doing both those things.

What you've observed with the top shooters is a good model. The slow-smooth-fast mantra is mostly a reminder not to make speed the priority, but effectiveness. Once a technique is working, speeding it up is useful (and for some skills, necessary). So, if we're trying to develop functional skills for competition, self-defense, etc., we need to avoid the trap of going as fast as we can too soon, but once we have the skill, we should be speeding it up.

On a related note, practicing without failure is probably not optimal. The whole "perfect practice makes perfect" is probably incorrect, though it's a useful concept. Some of the research I've seen suggests a modest failure rate (I think it's commonly around 85% success) produces faster and more profound improvement than working in such a way that we never fail. Within MA, that means keeping the interactions at a speed and difficulty where we fail a significant part of the time.

 

[_Simon_]

On a related note, practicing without failure is probably not optimal. The whole "perfect practice makes perfect" is probably incorrect, though it's a useful concept. Some of the research I've seen suggests a modest failure rate (I think it's commonly around 85% success) produces faster and more profound improvement than working in such a way that we never fail. Within MA, that means keeping the interactions at a speed and difficulty where we fail a significant part of the time.

That..... is awesome. And love it so much better than "practice everything absolutely perfect all the time without deviation"

 

[Dirty Dog]

That..... is awesome. And love it so much better than "practice everything absolutely perfect all the time without deviation"

I think that's a great goal. It's completely unrealistic and unachievable, but it's a great goal.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think that's a great goal. It's completely unrealistic and unachievable, but it's a great goal.

It's okay as a goal, so long as it doesn't lead the practitioner to avoid failure. If I practice a grappling technique in a way that is always 100% perfect (no failure), then I'm not pushing myself - probably doing it too slow, with too little resistance.

 

[wab25]

What you've observed with the top shooters is a good model. The slow-smooth-fast mantra is mostly a reminder not to make speed the priority, but effectiveness. Once a technique is working, speeding it up is useful (and for some skills, necessary). So, if we're trying to develop functional skills for competition, self-defense, etc., we need to avoid the trap of going as fast as we can too soon, but once we have the skill, we should be speeding it up.

I agree, however I feel that this is part of a process that should be repeated. You go slow, get it right, then speed it up. At some point you will plateau at a "max" speed. In order to increase your "max" speed, you need to slow down again, so that you can analyze your movements again, identify areas to improve. You then speed things up, you should be able to pass you old "max" speed and find a new, higher "max" speed. Then you slow down, analyze and repeat.

A boxer doesn't spend all his time on the speed bag... or on the heavy bag... or shadow boxing... or sparring... or jumping rope.... They use a mix, and change up that mix depending on what the boxer needs to work on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree, however I feel that this is part of a process that should be repeated. You go slow, get it right, then speed it up. At some point you will plateau at a "max" speed. In order to increase your "max" speed, you need to slow down again, so that you can analyze your movements again, identify areas to improve. You then speed things up, you should be able to pass you old "max" speed and find a new, higher "max" speed. Then you slow down, analyze and repeat.

A boxer doesn't spend all his time on the speed bag... or on the heavy bag... or shadow boxing... or sparring... or jumping rope.... They use a mix, and change up that mix depending on what the boxer needs to work on.

I definitely agree. Sometimes we have to go back and look at the foundation again to see if we're still doing it right. Bad habits can creep in, or we might simply understand it better now than we did last time. It's iterative.

 

[DocWard]

I definitely agree. Sometimes we have to go back and look at the foundation again to see if we're still doing it right. Bad habits can creep in, or we might simply understand it better now than we did last time. It's iterative.

Most definitely. I won't even get into my martial arts problems at this point, I'm just too new back to it, but when I sense I am having problems with my shooting, I look at the foundation. If it is trap, I'm paying attention to my sight picture, my stance, my follow through and more. Some I can do at home, much more needs to be done at the line shooting targets. For my other shooting, such as Cowboy Action, I may break out my .22LR firearms so I can eliminate recoil from the equation to a great extent, and focus on sight picture, breathing, trigger squeeze, etc... Breaking it down to the foundations.

One thing I can say for both martial arts and shooting, is that it is greatly helpful to have a different, experienced set of eyes watching. One of the things I've been noticing since returning to the dojo is that over the years of not practicing, or practicing on my own is that I've picked up bad habits, and it is taking significant effort to break those habits. I wouldn't be aware of them without the practiced eye of my instructor, though.

 

[dvcochran]

QUOTE="Dirty Dog, post: 1954294, member: 20725"]I think that's a great goal. It's completely unrealistic and unachievable, but it's a great goal.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I started to chime in on @gpseymour 's post but held back. We often encourage perfect practice makes perfect. It is unachievable but if the bar is not set high, what is the point? I use the phrase to stress how important it is to know what is correct and what is not when teaching a move/technique. Everybody does the same move differently, however slight. It drives me batty when I see someone practicing a move wrong and find they are doing it they way they were taught.

 

[Flying Crane]

I definitely agree. Sometimes we have to go back and look at the foundation again to see if we're still doing it right. Bad habits can creep in, or we might simply understand it better now than we did last time. It's iterative.

I’ll go one up on you here and say that it ought to be part of your regular training, always. That keeps the development moving forward and on the right track.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

I study kata all the time because we always do it in class all the time my style is American Kenpo Karate so we have a form called long form 3 its called the horse stance kata and we do it right and left handed

 

[Headhunter]

I study kata all the time because we always do it in class all the time my style is American Kenpo Karate so we have a form called long form 3 its called the horse stance kata and we do it right and left handed

Must you mention you do kenpo in every single post? Also again you seem to not have read the actual thread my friend

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Must you mention you do kenpo in every single post? Also again you seem to not have read the actual thread my friend

That's their MO.

 

[_Simon_]

THREAD NECRO! THREAD NECRO!

Anyway! Just read an article about a dojo that did a kata 50 times, and the variations they did and different things they emphasised. Some are obviously just things chucked in to make it interesting, but others are great things to work on. Good list!

50 Kata Day | Arjan Hura, MD

 

[Gerry Seymour]

THREAD NECRO! THREAD NECRO!

Anyway! Just read an article about a dojo that did a kata 50 times, and the variations they did and different things they emphasised. Some are obviously just things chucked in to make it interesting, but others are great things to work on. Good list!

50 Kata Day | Arjan Hura, MD

I've done something of the same thing (in my own training - not yet with students), though not to that degree. I often run one or more of the kata 10+ times in a row, paying attention to something different each time. With the stick katas, for instance, I'll do one time with precision, one time with sharp strikes, one time with body speed (footwork/movement), one time with power, one time slow, one time for smooth flow, once quite slow, etc. Each iteration presents different physical challenges.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

did a kata 50 times,

I don't like to train forms. I like to train drills. I may walk 4 miles daily. In that 4 miles, for every 4 steps, I will do a

- foot sweep,
- roundhouse kick,
- hook punch,
- groin kick, face punch combo,
- ...

I may repeat each drill (or combo)100 times. I then do a different drill (or combo).

If a form has 40 moves, 50 reps will give me 2,000 moves. If I repeat 20 drills with 100 times each, I will also get 2,000 moves.

 

[Tez3]

I first heard that in the military. It goes hand-in-hand with the "crawl-walk-run...."

And hurry up and wait!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't like to train forms. I like to train drills. I may walk 4 miles daily. In that 4 miles, for every 4 steps, I will do a

- foot sweep,
- roundhouse kick,
- hook punch,
- groin kick, face punch combo,
- ...

I may repeat each drill (or combo)100 times. I then do a different drill (or combo).

If a form has 40 moves, 50 reps will give me 2,000 moves. If I repeat 20 drills with 100 times each, I will also get 2,000 moves.

You're basically doing a short form. So it's not that you don't like forms - you just prefer them shorter.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Can it be said that a long kata/form is just a lot of short ones combined that flow well together?