How do you study your Kata / Forms?

[Bill Mattocks]

I just do kata. Enlightenment comes when you are not looking for it. I am patient and in need of much improvement.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

I will say one of the most shocking things that affected my foundation arts training and personalized it was when I relocated states and no longer had a CLF instructor to teach me. This was one of those bittersweet things since I know longer had anybody doing observations and corrections but it also freed my mind and body to do what felt more natural when it came to doing the art.

Here's a few examples of how going solo changed my personal CLF. Since I know longer had an instructor to give corrections thru observations I started to purchase and view a ton of instructional media on different lineages applications. This made me realize that there were certain lineages or federations that did forms with super defined and low stances which provided a great workout while looking great for tournaments. There was the complete opposite where some lineages did much higher stances with super quick less defined stances which made it more applicable for combative usage. After observing this I started to do my forms and techniques both ways and will say it was quite interesting to see how flying down the middle of the two extremes made my CLF feel more natural and applicable.

Of course the other things that greatly affected my personal martial arts is cross training and cross referencing arts thru different instructors and media.

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[_Simon_]

It would also be a good practice in patience to see if you can keep the pace on the last few techniques in the form.

Yeah it really would! Would be such a long practice session of focus for that amount of time, then to keep that consistency of rhythm and focus until the very end...

 

[_Simon_]

Can you do a

- flying side kick,
- spin hook kick,
- tornado kick,
- ...

in slow motion? You can't. This is why those jumping kicks are not included as part of the Taiji training.

Why do you allow any MA system to prevent you from jumping,

True. Only applicable to certain forms for sure. I still think it would have value, and not to be practiced with everything. Certainly not an all-or-none practice, but I see what you're saying.

 

[dvcochran]

So, I moved away from most of the other schools teaching Danzan Ryu. I have put together a small class and am teaching some people. However, my own study of Danzan Ryu has been modified. Not just because I am teaching, though that alone has helped me learn a lot. But, I don't have regular interaction with people that have more experience than I in DZR.

I was hoping to get some ideas from the folks here, on how you go about your personal study of your art. What have you done that has helped you dive deeper into your art? How have you found new applications? How have you found new principles or ideas in your art? How have you expanded your base knowledge?

I'll kick this off with a few examples of things I have done / am doing.

One thing I try, is to cross train with other arts and try my DZR in sparring / randori. (note I do not sandbag here, I let them know what I am doing... I also spend more time working on what they are teaching in the class that I am taking at the moment) When my tucus gets handed back to me, I take the opportunity to analyze what happened, and why I got thrashed. More often than not, the problem has been operator error, rather than a problem with the art. Many of these issues I have been able to fix... this has effected how I teach certain techniques. The light has come on many times, about why the kata has this funny bit in it... I guess I have to learn the hard way, to understand what is in the kata sometimes. (so far, I have sparred / trained with BJJ, Judo, Karate, MMA, TKD, Aikido, Kung Fu, Daito Ryu and a Systema guy... I learned a bunch from all of them)

Another thing I do is to look at each technique and/or Kata. At first each one seems to emphasize a different thing. One may focus on power, one on stance, one on off balancing, one on flow... I will then trade... Take the one focused on power and try to find where the off balancing is, in that same kata. Then I will look for the flow in the power kata... I keep finding all these "new" things in each technique / kata, that have really always been there. But, they are new to me.

What have/or do you guys do? I would like to try more things to get deeper into my art. Thanks in advance for the great ideas.

That is a great concept. Testing a MA style by exposure to other styles just makes sense. Being able to do it objectively and without ego shows you maturity and wisdom.
For me, as I continue to progress through our black belt forms (again), repetition plays a big factor, just like when I was a color belt. Most people go through stages.
1.) Learning each move/step.
2.) Memorizing each move/step in the arranged pattern.
3.) Gaining coordination and power in each move/segment.
4.) Imprinting the complete form to permanent memory to the point you don't have to "think" about each move.
5.) "Seeing" specific elements of a move/segment and the possibility for multiple application(s).
6.) Maturing in the form to the point you are at. Seeing a bigger picture.
As an example, we practice the Kukkiwon Yudanja forms. But there are some moves we do differently (slow moves) because we cannot understand how they have any application. Sections where they are clearly working on balance and power make sense.
In some of our senior belt classes, we will take a sections of a form and discuss it in length, using available reference material as well as our own experience. This can get sticky. We are not trying to make them "our" form as far as how they are performed. More trying to ferret out all the ideas of the original creators.

 

[_Simon_]

Just tested out setting a stopwatch, and just doing a kata (Pinan Yon) probably not as slow as I possibly could but incredibly slow. Ended up finishing it in 9mins 20seconds, and I was driiiiipping sweat! Literally! (Although, I had just finished almost an hour of ankle strengthening, explosive footwork drills, and hard nonstop kihon, and it was a 39°C day haha).

I cannot imagine doing that one kata for a whole hour though.....

Was an interesting exercise! Was cool noting my weight transference in stance transitions, balance, awareness of technique trajectory, seeing how my body worked in unison (even though slowly). Also saw how I changed the tempo hundreds of times throughout haha and had to keep reminding myself to 'go slower'.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just tested out setting a stopwatch, and just doing a kata (Pinan Yon) probably not as slow as I possibly could but incredibly slow. Ended up finishing it in 9mins 20seconds, and I was driiiiipping sweat! Literally! (Although, I had just finished almost an hour of ankle strengthening, explosive footwork drills, and hard nonstop kihon, and it was a 39°C day haha).

I cannot imagine doing that one kata for a whole hour though.....

Was an interesting exercise! Was cool noting my weight transference in stance transitions, balance, awareness of technique trajectory, seeing how my body worked in unison (even though slowly). Also saw how I changed the tempo hundreds of times throughout haha and had to keep reminding myself to 'go slower'.

When I've worked slow kata, I had that problem, too. And I see it every time I have a student work a drill slow: their partner attacks slow, and they respond 25% faster. It's tough to keep our pacing slower than normal, and the more slow, the harder it gets.

 

[isshinryuronin]

dvchchran has the steps right on. (don't know yet how to print his post as intro to mine) When karate was watered down for introduction into the public schools in Japan in the 1920's and 30's, many techniques were removed or hidden for safety and simplicity - result being some kata moves don't seem to have a purpose, and we find ourselves trying to decipher them. For some guidance in this, check out Chojun Miyagi's (Goju-ryu founder) The Rules of Kata.

I'm a believer in practicing kata in various ways: slow, fast, powerful, blindfolded, with dynamic tension, light, etc.

 

[Dirty Dog]

dvchchran has the steps right on. (don't know yet how to print his post as intro to mine)

Try clicking the big REPLY button at the bottom of every post. If you want to quote multiple posts in one reply, click the QUOTE button.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Thanks, DD

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the more slow, the harder it gets.

What's the difference between school study and MA study?

- In school examine, you will have 10 questions. You start from question 1. If you have any issue with question 5, you go to question 6. After you have finished question 10, you then come back to question 5.

- In MA, when your opponent stabs a knife toward your chest, you will only have 1/4 second to react.

Speed is extremely important in MA training.

 

[wab25]

Speed is extremely important in MA training.

It is. Slow training can help you develop more speed.

Take a hip throw. You should take 2 steps when doing the version we do. Most people, when learning take 3, 4, or even 5 steps. This is because they don't step in fully on the first step and then adjust. This becomes part of how they do it, all these little additional adjustment steps. When you tell them to throw faster, they do all the same little adjustment steps faster. Many times they even add a few extra movements. Get them to do it slow and they start asking "Why am I taking all these steps?" "If I step here instead, then I don't need that other adjustment." Now when they get back to normal speed, they are working on removing the 2 extra adjustment steps. A person doing a throw with 2 steps will always be faster than that same person doing the same throw with 5 steps.

The same idea happens all over. When going slow, you can easily see where we are off balance, where our stance is weak, where our body in not connected and moving together and where we have extra movements that we didn't realize we had. Slow practice points these out and gives us things to focus on. When you get back to normal speed, you should have fewer extra movements, better balance, better stance and more unified movement. This should make us faster and stronger.

Slow training is a tool. It can be used to train certain things. It can't train all things... but then no tool can. Proper usage of this tool can be very helpful.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is. Slow training can help you develop more speed.

Take a hip throw. You should take 2 steps when doing the version we do. Most people, when learning take 3, 4, or even 5 steps. This is because they don't step in fully on the first step and then adjust. This becomes part of how they do it, all these little additional adjustment steps. When you tell them to throw faster, they do all the same little adjustment steps faster. Many times they even add a few extra movements. Get them to do it slow and they start asking "Why am I taking all these steps?" "If I step here instead, then I don't need that other adjustment." Now when they get back to normal speed, they are working on removing the 2 extra adjustment steps. A person doing a throw with 2 steps will always be faster than that same person doing the same throw with 5 steps.

The same idea happens all over. When going slow, you can easily see where we are off balance, where our stance is weak, where our body in not connected and moving together and where we have extra movements that we didn't realize we had. Slow practice points these out and gives us things to focus on. When you get back to normal speed, you should have fewer extra movements, better balance, better stance and more unified movement. This should make us faster and stronger.

Slow training is a tool. It can be used to train certain things. It can't train all things... but then no tool can. Proper usage of this tool can be very helpful.

One of my favorite quotes from my first NGA teacher: "Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast." It's a reference to exactly what you're talking about - using slow movement to get it right (and smooth) so "normal" speed is faster.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Slow training can help you develop more speed.

Since in training, your opponent will use normal speed (such as step back, a punch toward your head, ...), if you use slow speed to respond to it, the training will feel awkward.

For example, when you attack your opponent's leading leg, if he steps back that leg, in order for you to attack his other leg, you have to step in as fast as his stepping back. Otherwise, you can not reach him. You just can''t ask your opponent to step back in slow speed, so you can train your slow speed attack.

This is the normal speed for beginner training in my system.

1. Your opponent's punch is in normal speed.
2. Your throw is also in normal speed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One of my favorite quotes from my first NGA teacher: "Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast." It's a reference to exactly what you're talking about - using slow movement to get it right (and smooth) so "normal" speed is faster.

Do you ask your students to punch/kick slow so their opponent can execute a slow block? How about footwork? How to train footwork in slow speed?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Since in training, your opponent will use normal speed (such as step back, a punch toward your head, ...), if you use slow speed to respond to it, the training will feel awkward.

For example, when you attack your opponent's leading leg, if he steps back that leg, in order for you to attack his other leg, you have to step in as fast as his stepping back. Otherwise, you can not reach him. You just can''t ask your opponent to step back in slow speed, so you can train your slow speed attack.

This is the normal speed for beginner training in my system.

1. Your opponent's punch is in normal speed.
2. Your throw is also in normal speed.

Your opponent should be using the appropriate speed for the drill. Sometimes that's normal speed, sometimes it's not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you ask your students to punch/kick slow so their opponent can execute a slow block? How about footwork? How to train footwork in slow speed?

When they're first learning it, yes. Giving a full-speed punch to a rank beginner has little value. It needn't be as slow as I'd introduce a grappling movement, because the blocking movement isn't as complex.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is the normal speed for beginner training in my system.

1. Your opponent's punch is in normal speed.
2. Your throw is also in normal speed.

I finally got that to play. Those aren't beginners.

 

[wab25]

You just can''t ask your opponent to step back in slow speed, so you can train your slow speed attack.

Why not? Most things you do fast, can be done slow.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why not? Most things you do fast, can be done slow.

Man, I'm tired just watching some of that slow section - great control. And I was laughing along with the audience.