How do you know when to act?

[KenpoTex]

999 out of 1000 times in this situationI would not feel comfortable with attempting to settle the situation with force. I am physically weak and currently have insignificant MA training and little 'real fighting' experience.

Both of those issues can be remedied...start a workout program and find somewhere to train. Since you're in the UK, I'd recommend Dennis Martin or Lee Morrison if either of them is close enough to your location.

 

[The_Fish]

Both of those issues can be remedied...start a workout program and find somewhere to train. Since you're in the UK, I'd recommend Dennis Martin or Lee Morrison if either of them is close enough to your location.

Just started both. I am completely happy with myself as I am, don't confuse my comment as me putting myself down - I am just bothered about taking care of myself and keeping healthy.

As for the gun post, carrying any sort of weapon about in the UK is treading on very thin ice, to put things mildly. Especially a gun. Some might say the pros of having such an effective defensive weapon at hand to defend yourself outweigh the cons of possible imprisonment if it comes to actually using it or being found with it, but it is such a risky business when it comes to that sort of thing that it's really not worth it for the vast majority of people. Me? I'm unfortunately a slave to the system - carrying any sort of personal weapon around aside from those that are easily passed off as other things (kubotan/keyring for example) is going to be a no-go for me, I'm afraid. If our laws were different then sure, but as it stands, I'm with probably about 99% (just an estimate) of the population who don't carry a weapon.

 

[thardey]

Just started both. I am completely happy with myself as I am, don't confuse my comment as me putting myself down - I am just bothered about taking care of myself and keeping healthy.

As for the gun post, carrying any sort of weapon about in the UK is treading on very thin ice, to put things mildly. Especially a gun. Some might say the pros of having such an effective defensive weapon at hand to defend yourself outweigh the cons of possible imprisonment if it comes to actually using it or being found with it, but it is such a risky business when it comes to that sort of thing that it's really not worth it for the vast majority of people. Me? I'm unfortunately a slave to the system - carrying any sort of personal weapon around aside from those that are easily passed off as other things (kubotan/keyring for example) is going to be a no-go for me, I'm afraid. If our laws were different then sure, but as it stands, I'm with probably about 99% (just an estimate) of the population who don't carry a weapon.

I know a long time ago (like a couple hundred years) you had to have a permit to carry a cane in London. Is that still the case?

 

[stonewall1450]

I think the proposition of carrying a gun and trying to draw down on a guy who already has the drop and the gun pointed at you is tricky situation. First off for any person: Do not get into these situations. Try not go anywhere alone at night or into places where you know you arent safe. Second: if you do have a concealed weapon you better make for darn sure that you can get that out as fast as you THINK you can. I am not trained in MA other than boxing. I am however a very expierenced shooter(hunting and shooting for 14 years). I know that I have had a hard time drawing my gun on a moving deer, let alone a human with a gun on me(under 21 so I cant have a concealed weapon). I also know that I personally will not miss a man sized target inside 10 yards with my .357 drawn. So basically this is a close your eyes and throw at the dart board question.
Dont try and draw a gun unless you are sure that you have a prayer. In the immortal words of Robert Lundum(Author of Bourne Book series) "wait for the moment for him to blink or lose concentration. Then strike fast and without remorse."
I carry a pocket knife usually that I can pull fairly fast, but with a gun on me and i feel im not coming out alive i know i will turn into an animal I will bite at any thing as well punch, pinch, kick, gouge, spit, and basically any dirt trick that comes to mind. I would say the best bet is to be passive aggressive. Talk like a shrink and act like an animal. I would say cooperate as little as possible. Drop the wallet and dont bend down unless told, tell them you havent seen their face and that you cant describe it even if you have. If your good with a gun pull a john wayne and toss the wallet and give 1 in the guy with the other hand.

 

[MJS]

My train of thought is, if a person is mugging me, it stands to reason their primary concern is my wallet and not killing me. If I can appeal to this nature in a way I deem fit by trying to draw observations on my mugger then my chances of survival could well be higher than making an attempt at fighting them off whilst they are armed.

Not necessarily true. There was a recent home invasion here in CT. The suspect was originally just looking for cash, small items he could take and sell for cash, a car, etc. He ended up attempting to kill both women in the house, because they saw his face and he was afraid they'd be able to ID him. One was shot, but survived. The other was taken in the car with him and found the next day dead.

That being said, I would say its better to assume the worst. We don't know what will happen, so IMO, I say its better to fight. Some will disagree, but if you stand the chance of getting killed anyway, may as well make an attempt.

 

[Imminent]

999 out of 1000 times in this situationI would not feel comfortable with attempting to settle the situation with force. I am physically weak and currently have insignificant MA training and little 'real fighting' experience. I respond well to stressful situations and pressure however and I can keep my mind ticking over - but in a situation where I have a gun pointed at me, I can only assume that I will be a bit of a terrified mess.

My train of thought is, if a person is mugging me, it stands to reason their primary concern is my wallet and not killing me. If I can appeal to this nature in a way I deem fit by trying to draw observations on my mugger then my chances of survival could well be higher than making an attempt at fighting them off whilst they are armed.

May well be the last thing I should be doing - but truth be told, this is a question I wouldn't be able to answer becaues I would have no idea in reality, what I'd do until I was put in this situation.

This is one of the most dangerous mistakes I think people make regarding criminal violence. "They" don't use reason within the social context you use reason, "they" use goal, as in my "goal is to rob you and whatever else I feel like doing" in the "not by your rules" category. At the moment he/she/they display the intent to use violence, SgtMac is dead on. Fill them in, close distance post haste and shut them down, you don't need MA for that you need is as simply stick-to-head. You do not need size or weeks of training, just keep it simple. Drive your thumb in his eyes, crush his windpipe with your forearm, as you rupture his testicles, going through him all the time until he is non-functional. His body will betray his intent by breaking and reacting. The longer you wait to react, generally, the worse your chances get.

 

[thardey]

This is one of the most dangerous mistakes I think people make regarding criminal violence. "They" don't use reason within the social context you use reason, "they" use goal, as in my "goal is to rob you and whatever else I feel like doing" in the "not by your rules" category. At the moment he/she/they display the intent to use violence, SgtMac is dead on. Fill them in, close distance post haste and shut them down, you don't need MA for that you need is as simply stick-to-head. You do not need size or weeks of training, just keep it simple. Drive your thumb in his eyes, crush his windpipe with your forearm, as you rupture his testicles, going through him all the time until he is non-functional. His body will betray his intent by breaking and reacting. The longer you wait to react, generally, the worse your chances get.

The bolded part is really important. Most of the time we assume that people we come into contact with use the same rules of engagement that we do. It's often a subconscious thought.

Sort of like "playground rules" for a fight. If you think that the mugger is using your rules of engagement, why is he robbing you with a weapon in the first place?

We have a built-in tendency to avoid truly doing damage with our bare hands, it's revolting to us at first. Things like squishing eyeballs, rupturing sexual organs, and crushing various soft-tissue organs in general make us wince and hesitate.

These are not acceptable for a "civilized" fight. But once you step off the playground, or out of the sporting ring, there is no such thing as a "civilized" fight. We're not talking about two rams banging heads over territory here, it's predator vs. prey. You're the Lion, or you're the Zebra, which is it going to be? Fighting for "honor" is long past -- it's time to cheat, and cheat harder than the bad guys.

That's why these things should be avoided at all reasonable costs in the first place. It's ugly, it's dark, it's primal, but sometimes, if the string of bad decisions is long enough, it's necessary.

 

[Twin Fist]

The fact that he is robbing you with a weapon is justification for deadly force...make sure that you have the capability to deliver this level of force and use it as quickly as possible to stop the threat.

QFT

 

[stonewall1450]

The thing about trying to decide how far you are going to go in this kind of situation is that you may have to go farther and you might hesitate to cripple or kill. The ind set you should have is that you will go as far as you must to take down your opponent. The only decision you should make is what to do when he submits or dies. If he sumits and you have his gun do you pull a "You dont look so bad heres another Bam" in the shoulder or head. Or do you not shoot him. joking anout killing him but not not about debillitating shot if you have more to deal with.

 

[KenpoTex]

QFT

not familiar with that acronym...little help?

 

[Hawke]

QFT = Quoted For Truth

 

[KenpoTex]

QFT = Quoted For Truth

ah...thanks. Not the first thing that popped into my head, then again, I've got a dirty mind.

 

[Guardian]

Well, first of all, those people who say that if the robber was going to shoot you, he would have already done it don't know much about REAL armed robberies.....grave yards are filled with cooperative victims who gave their robber everything he wanted, and got murdered for their troubles.....I seem to recall several murdered victims in a Lane Bryant store in Chicago, Illionois, herded to the back and murdered during a robbery.

So the short answer to the question of how do you know if they are going to shoot or not is....YOU DON'T! Which makes the argument 'Your life isn't worth your money' silly in it's assumption that cooperation will mean you won't die, when the outcome very well could be your money AND your life!

One thing I would remove from my mind, though....the notion of a 'basic robbery'.....that's like a 'basic murder'......there's not such thing. A robbery, especially where a weapon is involved, is a DEADLY SERIOUS proposition!

If someone wants a one size fits all response, again, there isn't one! What do you do? Well, cooperation can get you killed......fighting back can get you killed. So which one is appropriate in any given situation? It's a good topic for debate, but ultimately you pays your money and you takes your chances.....spin the wheel.

I can tell you what I have every intention of doing......handing him my wallet with one hand and drawing and emptying my gun at point blank range in to him with the other! Does it guarantee my survival? Nope, but it's a plan of action....and A plan beats no plan any day.

No sense in responding any further then this one, if I'm without a weapon, once he/she takes her eyes off of me to reach for that wallet, I'm going to do everything in my power since their within reach to take them out as in I'm going straigh at them, they are within arms reach in order to take that wallet, their eyes are on the wallet or at least distracted for a moment, that moment is your opportunity, as this author stated here, it's a plan and it's worth the risk, move in on them, last thing they will expect, I would say do it at a angle, slant your body as much as possible still using it as a force though, less target, but enough for force to move them and engage them.