How do you kiai?

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Doc
Some might be interested to know, the actual sound made has an impact on execution, although the general sounds of short bursts fit general rules of "combat breathing." The word "kiai" itself is Japanese in origin and carries with it cultural implications of bushido spirit etc, that do not fit within the concepts of any interpretation of American kenpo I am aware of.

Hey Cobb, ask around about the "5 elemental Sounds of execution." Ed Parker used them in his own execution but did not teach them in general.

I agree a bit here too. As I have trained and gotten used to the whole kiai/breathing issue. Now I usually just grunt as a part of my kiai/breathing to either take a shot, or gain power in my movements. I am not big on yelling and drawing attention to myself.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Doc
Some might be interested to know, the actual sound made has an impact on execution, although the general sounds of short bursts fit general rules of "combat breathing." The word "kiai" itself is Japanese in origin and carries with it cultural implications of bushido spirit etc, that do not fit within the concepts of any interpretation of American kenpo I am aware of.

Hey Cobb, ask around about the "5 elemental Sounds of execution." Ed Parker used them in his own execution but did not teach them in general.

I'm gonna take a stab at saying the vowels A, E, I, O, U.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Shodan]

Ha ha!! That brought back memories forgotten!!

The first studio I ever went to had a guy that used to do the vowels as a kiai!!!! :asian: :karate:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
Hey Cobb, ask around about the "5 elemental Sounds of execution." Ed Parker used them in his own execution but did not teach them in general.

OK shall do. But first let me ask this, would it be anything like what Mr. Dillman teaches as KIAIJUTSU?
I will be training tomorrow night, so I'll ask my Senseii.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
OK shall do. But first let me ask this, would it be anything like what Mr. Dillman teaches as KIAIJUTSU?
I will be training tomorrow night, so I'll ask my Senseii.

--Dave

:asian:

Not that I know of.

 

[KenpoDave]

Typically, we say the word kiai in the beginning. Mine is more of a quick exhale now.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by KenpoDave
Typically, we say the word kiai in the beginning. Mine is more of a quick exhale now.

Interesting. If you were teaching a person to "growl," would you begin by having them say "growl?"

The only reason the word "kiai" exists in American kenpo is because Mr. Parker couldn't come up with an English replacement he liked.

The shape of the jaw, placement of the tongue, posture, and method of breathing all contribute to and can change the effect of what you call "kiai."

Just a thought.

 

[KenpoDave]

It gets everybody started, and comfortable using it.

 

[clapping_tiger]

What I am most comfortable with is a yell, and to be honest I don't know what it is. I am not screaming or anything, but it is a sound of intensity and seriousness. I like to think of it as a prelude to my attack, or counterattack. Sort of a verbal stun, that gives me that second (time wise) advantage. It is kind of interesting if working with a lower belt or new student in a drill, they throw an attack and when you "verbally stun" them their brain sort of shuts down for a second, the same as it should on the street to an untrained assailant.

 

[clapping_tiger]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
These are the reasons I teach and in order of priority

1)To expel air when you get hit or when you fall so it's not involuntarily expelled from you.

2)To add power to the technique. By expelling air you become less buoyant and able to drop mass into the strike.

3)To scare or intimate your opponent. A loud, short burst of air can actually do wonders to offset your opponent's actions even momentarily.

The sound you make during a KIAI is irrelevant to me as long as you do it correctly, from the diaphram, loud, and short in duration.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

These are the reasons that were taught to "kiai" also, almost verbatim, hence my opinion in the previous post.

I just had to edit this in, I guess it would be a good idea to read all the posts first before I post my 2 cents, it would have been just as easy to say I was taught the same thing as the what Proff. Clyde explained.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
Not that I know of.

You are right again
No it isn't the same. Ihave spoken to my teacher about the 5 elemental Sounds of execution, and he gave a breif explanation, and told me that in depth stuff would be taught later this year. He seemed quite interested that I would know about it, and wanted to know who I'd been talking to.
The way he explained it was that the different aspects of application, required a different sound, to create a higher effectiveness.
That is for example you would kiai differently whilst executing joint locks, to the way you would when you punch.
I hope this makes sense.....

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
You are right again
No it isn't the same. Ihave spoken to my teacher about the 5 elemental Sounds of execution, and he gave a breif explanation, and told me that in depth stuff would be taught later this year. He seemed quite interested that I would know about it, and wanted to know who I'd been talking to.
The way he explained it was that the different aspects of application, required a different sound, to create a higher effectiveness.
That is for example you would kiai differently whilst executing joint locks, to the way you would when you punch.
I hope this makes sense.....

--Dave

:asian:

Of course it does. At least you and I have a discussion. Some ignore my queries in favor of "jokes."

 

[don bohrer]

Should a kiai force your torso to become rigid, or do you stay loose at all times? I know an instructor that teaches Hungga, tai chi and a few other chinese based arts. He stresses being relaxed at all times. Breath normal and exhale while striking. Inhale while collasping or pulling your body back.
Originally I was taught to exhale and tense at moment of contact. My thoughts on Kiai is to protect yourself when hit and sink your weight. This guys says the same thing about relaxing, breathing normally and exhaling, but not to tense up.

Any comments?

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
Of course it does. At least you and I have a discussion. Some ignore my queries in favor of "jokes."

Maybe, these guys don't see the value in what you know. I had a friend that trained with me in American Kenpo for 3 or 4 years. I was there for 6 or 7. When I left AK to train where I am now, I was blown away by the new stuff I was learning and seeing. I told him he should come and see for himself, and his response was something along the lines of, "I'd like to see them knock me out!". In fact the only reason he came down for a look at all was to do Tae Bo, to improve his fitness. He watched a couple of the martial art classes and he was hooked too. He got his 1st Dan in October.

Maybe what you are getting here is the, "I'd like to see them knock me out!", way of thinking, because they don't understand what it is you do. Or it could be that they make a joke of their answer, that way if their answer is silly, they don't look silly.

But hey I don't mind, it gets me more attention from you. It's kind of like a private lesson in a classroom full of people.

Seriously though, unless you have even a minor knowledge of the subject at hand, I think a lot of what we discuss here would go well over head. As you know it is totally different to describing
the "how to " of a punch for example. You can tell someone on here to try punching this way and describe it to them. They can go away and try it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
But try describing how we do things to someone who has no idea what so ever what we are talking about. It will not work!!

--Dave

:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by don bohrer
Should a kiai force your torso to become rigid, or do you stay loose at all times? I know an instructor that teaches Hungga, tai chi and a few other chinese based arts. He stresses being relaxed at all times. Breath normal and exhale while striking. Inhale while collasping or pulling your body back.
Originally I was taught to exhale and tense at moment of contact. My thoughts on Kiai is to protect yourself when hit and sink your weight. This guys says the same thing about relaxing, breathing normally and exhaling, but not to tense up.

Any comments?

The idea is make your protective muscles in the torso tight, not tense. Tension restricts movement. You should be able to hold a conversation, whilst someone applies pressure to your midsection. A kiai, in it's basic application should increase this to a level where you can take a full strength strike, but only for the brief second of the hit. When used in attack, the tightness in the torso is used to propel the strike and send the energy to the weapon and then to the target.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by don bohrer
Should a kiai force your torso to become rigid, or do you stay loose at all times? I know an instructor that teaches Hungga, tai chi and a few other chinese based arts. He stresses being relaxed at all times. Breath normal and exhale while striking. Inhale while collasping or pulling your body back.
Originally I was taught to exhale and tense at moment of contact. My thoughts on Kiai is to protect yourself when hit and sink your weight. This guys says the same thing about relaxing, breathing normally and exhaling, but not to tense up.

Any comments?

He is correct although the teaching of Tai Chi excludes the applications.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Maybe, these guys don't see the value in what you know. I had a friend that trained with me in American Kenpo for 3 or 4 years. I was there for 6 or 7. When I left AK to train where I am now, I was blown away by the new stuff I was learning and seeing. I told him he should come and see for himself, and his response was something along the lines of, "I'd like to see them knock me out!". In fact the only reason he came down for a look at all was to do Tae Bo, to improve his fitness. He watched a couple of the martial art classes and he was hooked too. He got his 1st Dan in October.

Maybe what you are getting here is the, "I'd like to see them knock me out!", way of thinking, because they don't understand what it is you do. Or it could be that they make a joke of their answer, that way if their answer is silly, they don't look silly.

But hey I don't mind, it gets me more attention from you. It's kind of like a private lesson in a classroom full of people.

Seriously though, unless you have even a minor knowledge of the subject at hand, I think a lot of what we discuss here would go well over head. As you know it is totally different to describing
the "how to " of a punch for example. You can tell someone on here to try punching this way and describe it to them. They can go away and try it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
But try describing how we do things to someone who has no idea what so ever what we are talking about. It will not work!!

--Dave

:asian:

Well of course you're right, it's just some have such a full cup I wonder why they even bother. Knowledge has no value until it is shared. There are no secrets, only things you don't know.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Doc
Well of course you're right, it's just some have such a full cup I wonder why they even bother. Knowledge has no value until it is shared. There are no secrets, only things you don't know.

And therein lies the problem

Everyone knows that we don't know what we don't know.

But some people don't know that they don't know.


--Dave

:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
And therein lies the problem

Everyone knows that we don't know what we don't know.

But some people don't know that they don't know.


--Dave

:asian:

Yeah, what he said!