How do you define a "mcdojo"?

[bushidomartialarts]

it boils down to the owner, and even then it's not necessarily black and white. the short version of how i came to own a dojo is that i started working at a mcdojo (didn't perceive it as a mcdojo at first), realized it was a mcdojo, then bought the mcdojo from the owner.

changed many policies and now it's not a mcdojo anymore. on the other hand, i spent several months as the general manager. the school had many mcdojo policies, but the guy making the day to day decisions (me) and my staff were not teaching like mcdojo people. we were (and are) solid martial artists and dedicated to our students.

so when, exactly, did is stop being a mcdojo? when the instruction staff changed? when i bought the studio? when the student culture shifted over the course of years? heck, we still maintain a premium classes option (a 'black belt club' type of thing). perhaps we're still a mcdojo.

 

[RED]

Commercialized martial arts.
Everyone has said pretty much what a Mc Dojo-Mc Dojang
Some tell, tell, signes of a Mc Dojo:

You are ready to test for your belt and you will get it as long as you buy this special weekend class for $300.

The instructor is 12.

You signed a contract.

The Black Belts out number the colored belts.

They claim to be experts. (True martial artists will never claim to be an expert. Only a student.)

You have experience but the owner finds something you are weak in and highlights that weakness and bases his entire effort on that aspect of your previous school.


My first two schools I attended where non-profit and I still get comments from instructors on how good my details are. I was 13-19 years old, ( attended 6 years) and still only had an ITF red belt. Now I'm 39+. The one school I went to that charged me the most money I ever paid for TKD was lacking in the details. I've sworn off paying for someone's business venture. Once I get a Black Belt I will find a church or community center to open a school for minimum donations.

Mc Dojos / Mc Dojangs have brought humiliation to the martial arts. We used to tease and beat up a kid who claimed to have a BB in Ishinryu Karate, he happened to be 12. The world doesn't repect the words black belt any more because of people making a quick buck.

I don't mean to tick off anyone that has a business teaching, on the contrary I find it a noble task, but Mc Dojos-Mc Dojangs have fee structures that focus on quantity and little on quality.

 

[Last Fearner]

I guess you would have to find the first person to coin that term and ask what exactly they meant by it. It seems that everyone has their own interpretation, and many "red flags" or tell-tale signs include things that the individual does not like to see in a school rather than what I would consider a truly bad trait.

I believe, as some have said, that it does not absolutely have to do with the fees, contracts, extra clubs, private sessions, test fees, colors of uniforms, tournaments, offering Olympics, claiming to be experts, number of Black Belts, Black Belt to student ratio, location of the school, size of the school, or the type of equipment inside. None of these, nor all of these combined guarantee that you are looking at a "McDojo/McDojang" in my opinion, and I don't believe it increases the likely-hood.

The way I read the term is not a slam on McDonald's (I worked for them when I was much younger, and I still eat there occasionally.) The McDonald's food chain (like many other fast food restaurants) are widely known for having a "cookie-cutter" approach to any new location. They take a local bunch of teens, slap uniforms and a hat on them, show them a video, and suddenly they're serving you a burger and fries. Take the oldest one of the group (the only one with a diploma or GED) and make him a manager.

It is mostly about sustenance. Sustenance means "The act of sustaining. The supporting of life or health, maintenance. Something, especially food, that sustains life or health." (The American Heritage Dictionary, 2000). While McDonald's and other fast food restaurants are changing to improve their menu, they are not known for being the "health food" stores. One does not maintain a healthy diet from eating fast food alone.

A McDojo is a "cookie-cutter" format with no real sustenance. The instructors are not qualified to teach because they either never had quality instruction themselves, or they are too young and inexperienced with little or no supervision. Others have touched on this point when they have said "honesty," or "quantity and little quality." Producing Black Belts in a short amount of time, and students of all ranks that do not have the full knowledge and understanding of the Martial Art. Unable to protect themselves in a real fight, they lack that which "sustains life or health."

So, for me, its a matter of slapping together a duplicate replica of a real school, but lacking in any qualifications to teach, and producing poor results. Fees, contracts, and all the other frills have nothing to do with it, in my opinion. It is strictly qualifications of the instructors, and quality of the students.

By the way, our local McDonald's is remodeling its interior, and gutting the old tables and chairs. The manager gave me some for free, and I am using them in my waiting area for parents and guests. I hope this does not make my school a "McDojang!" lol :lol:

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[BrandiJo]

any school who puts money above the students.

My currant school, i love it, i got laid off of work told my inst i couldnt train anymore cus i cant aford the tution 25 a month she said that she would rather have me there working hard and doing random chorse then to have me gone till i find work. When your in a school like that then your in the right place.

As for signs umm id say its all based on feeling. if it feels like your being taken odds are you are.

 

[MJS]

Again, it is all about honesty. Flashy is not bad, unless that is not what you are after. If you are looking for a flashy style, well then you need a school that teaches it.

Unless the art is being analyized by some that have a grudge against anything that is not up to 'their' standards.

 

[Rook]

Unless the art is being analyized by some that have a grudge against anything that is not up to 'their' standards.

Well, honesty and realistic expectations are important too. If you want to sell a style as "the flashiest, most gymnastic musical kata extravaganza ever!" style, and then your school says "Great for women's self defense!" some people will probably take issue with it, as they should.

 

[kidswarrior]

I like this post, a long time ago, I would have said....

This resonates: I used to think of myself as an expert in what other people should do, be, say, etc., and that included which art(s) were better than others.... Now I try to focus more on changing what's within my power/my responsibility. Maybe I'm just naive, maybe I've learned something--couldn't say. But it makes me less crazy.:erg:

Today however, I think the best way to define it or the way I define it, is through honesty. If the instructor is honest, and up front about what he teaches, whether its street self defense, competition, or a combination of both, I would not call it a mc dojo, it may just not be what I am looking for, but that does not mean it is necessarily a mc dojo...it all comes down to honesty.

Well said.

 

[kidswarrior]

it boils down to the owner, and even then it's not necessarily black and white. the short version of how i came to own a dojo is that i started working at a mcdojo (didn't perceive it as a mcdojo at first), realized it was a mcdojo, then bought the mcdojo from the owner.

changed many policies and now it's not a mcdojo anymore. on the other hand, i spent several months as the general manager. the school had many mcdojo policies, but the guy making the day to day decisions (me) and my staff were not teaching like mcdojo people. we were (and are) solid martial artists and dedicated to our students.

so when, exactly, did is stop being a mcdojo? when the instruction staff changed? when i bought the studio? when the student culture shifted over the course of years? heck, we still maintain a premium classes option (a 'black belt club' type of thing). perhaps we're still a mcdojo.

There's the honesty, again. Refreshing.

 

[tradrockrat]

"A McDojo is any school making more money than mine."

- Tradrockrat

 

[Amazon]

Ok, so I have only been in classes for about 6 months - so I certainly don't have a lot of experience to pull from, but this thread brings to mind some of what I experienced when looking for a place to study.

My husband and I had been wanting to start lessons for some time, but we had no idea what we were doing and we didn't know anyone who did. We did, however, have a specific budget in mind for what we could afford, which was something we were nervous about since we couldn't find any references on a rough ballpark of what lessons should cost.

So - we opened up the yellow pages and noticed the big add from a large chain establishment that will remain nameless. We started our call list with that school and asked how much their rates were etc... They asked us to come in and then told us that we needed to takes two weeks of sample private and group lessons and then we could discuss the fees after that.

We agreed and started going to the lessons. We enjoyed it, but we were extremely uncomfortable about the fact that they refused to discuss the continuing costs with us, even when we were very clear in explaining that we had a definite budget and that we didn't want to waste their time or ours if we couldn't afford their rates.

During this time we also couldn't help but notice that there was only one black belt in the school. who was the head of that location, and he was in his late 20's. There were some brown belts that were teaching classes as well, most in their early 20's.

Some of the other students that we talked to mentioned the costs for belt testing, which seemed very high ($200 +) and the few that I talked with didn't remember having seen anyone fail a belt test. They also talked about things like spendy weekend seminars, etc... like that type that were mentioned earlier in this thread.

When the time finally came where we went for a meeting to discuss options we were given a presentation with a multi color flip chart and lots of marketing about why the chain was so great. Finally the prices were broken out - at the end of the 30 minute session. The lower end of the scale was over $400/month for myself and my husband on a 6 month contract.

We were looking for more like $150/mo. and we said we definitely couldn't afford $400+/mo. At this point the instructor broke out a used car salesman style routine and tried to sell us a little further. Then he said he could maybe get closer to our price if we agreed to only come to one lesson per week, but he would have to check it out with his supervisor. Then he told us we should at least buy some gi and put down a 1/2 deposit while he checked it out, because he found that if people didn't make a commitment right there on the spot, they tended to lose their resolve to stick with it. At that point we were out of there. Just to extricate ourselves we had to say that we would call him the next day with a decision instead of accepting the "no" right there.

The school was a Kenpo school and we decided that we liked that format - so we did some searching for Kenpo schools in the LA area. We then researched the published background of the instructors - and narrowed it down to two EPAK schools. We found the one that had the best schedule for us and stopped by for a visit.

We were relieved to see the prices listed clearly - and slightly under our budget. Knowing that it was possible for us to afford the school, we stayed to observe a class. One of the instructors greeted us and told us we were welcome to watch and ask questions - no pressure. We liked what we saw and when we started asking questions the instructor was more interested in asking us what WE were looking for and what WE wanted to get out of our experience. He then described for us exactly what type of things they did there and what could be expected. We were ready to sign right then - out of sheer relief - but he asked us to take a couple of lessons to be sure we liked it and then to let him know if we still wanted to stay.

Knowing what we know now about the school we are in there could have been a lot of posturing and name dropping about the background etc.. when we came in, but we were grateful that there was none of this (we did get a basic description of the school's background that spoke for itself). We are extremely happy there. My husband had to work very hard for his yellow and is gratified knowing that. I'm still at my white belt, but I'm not ready to move up and I'm ok with that. I want to have a firm grasp on the yellow requirements without thinking that I was only moved up because the school wanted my testing fee.

It is this experience over the last few months - as a total outsider coming into any martial art - that has solidified in my mind what I would perceive as a mcdojo, as well as what I would not want in a school. It's the same as when I am looking for anything else as a consumer - certain places creep me out and it's usually for good reason. It's the reason I stay away from certain gyms, car lots, or sales reps when I need to buy makeup or facewash, etc...

 

[Cirdan]

A mcdojo basically has low quality instructors teaching low quality stuff and will have frequent gradings which all students will pass. There will also be myths about why what they teach is much better than everything else. "Our techniques are so refined strenght means nothing", "this is what the special forces use", "master once beat up 20 bikers with two broken legs and in a wheelchair" etc etc.

 

[shrek]

I remember a tip-off that something ain't kosher...if a school takes basic things out of what they are supposed to be teaching...they might be a McDojo...

One TKD school I attended refused to teach sweeps, full-contact full-power sparring, and they focused instead on forms, wood breaking, and testing. It struck me as odd when I asked my instructor if we were going to attend a major tournament close to us and was told that "We were not because they use sweeps and we don't teach that here"...

I later found out the reasoning behind that...he was afraid of lawsuits over injuries so he watered down the courses, taking out anything that was likely to cause a problem. But in my view he was doing more harm than good. That particular school is long gone, as all the students left once a proper TKD dojo came to town...but imagine all the damage control they had to do in re-instructing students who had been instructed wrongly for years...

 

[Josh]

If they claim to be teaching "TKD"

run run run!!!


:lol2: just kidding

 

[Grenadier]

If they claim to be teaching "TKD"

Maybe it's true that Tae Kwon Do and Karate produce a large number of watered down places, but if so, then most likely it's due to the fact that those two styles tend to be the most numerous around here.

Places that teach poor quality martial arts and try to squeeze lots of money from their constituents, can be of any style, and the more popular a style becomes, then simple mathematics dictate that there will be more "McDojo-ish" places amongst that system.

There are schools who claim to teach Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, yet to see them in action shows a mere shadow of what the quality schools offer. The same holds true for Krav Maga, etc. No style is immune to having such places pop up.

 

[Josh]

Maybe it's true that Tae Kwon Do and Karate produce a large number of watered down places, but if so, then most likely it's due to the fact that those two styles tend to be the most numerous around here.

Places that teach poor quality martial arts and try to squeeze lots of money from their constituents, can be of any style, and the more popular a style becomes, then simple mathematics dictate that there will be more "McDojo-ish" places amongst that system.

There are schools who claim to teach Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, yet to see them in action shows a mere shadow of what the quality schools offer. The same holds true for Krav Maga, etc. No style is immune to having such places pop up.

I was just kidding.

 

[terryl965]

I was just kidding.

I know you was just keep posting and it will be alright, I teach TKD and saw nothing wrong accept humor.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Maybe it's true that Tae Kwon Do and Karate produce a large number of watered down places, but if so, then most likely it's due to the fact that those two styles tend to be the most numerous around here.

Places that teach poor quality martial arts and try to squeeze lots of money from their constituents, can be of any style, and the more popular a style becomes, then simple mathematics dictate that there will be more "McDojo-ish" places amongst that system.

There are schools who claim to teach Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, yet to see them in action shows a mere shadow of what the quality schools offer. The same holds true for Krav Maga, etc. No style is immune to having such places pop up.

Absolutely! It is less of the style and more of the person running the Training Hall and what they are trying to accomplish. (Big $ or Quality)
Having said that some people run incredible Training Halls with high quality and still make good $. (good for them if that is what they want)

 

[Josh Oakley]

I train at a school which I have heard many call a McDojo. We're a large chain of Schools, we have a two weeks free thing, and we promote our school. A lot. Every student has a private lesson once a week, there are belt test fees that go up with each respective belt level, and I pay $185 a month for lessons.

Contrast that with my previous school that didn't have private lessons, doesn't promote, doesn't have belt tests (and only has 5 non-dan belts anyway) and I paid $55 a month.

So why did I go to the more commercialized school? My current school and my old school both had good instructors heading them up, both teach effective self-defense, and water down nothing.

The first reason was the private lesson. An instructor can pay only so much attention to one person when all they teach is group classes. One on one time with an experienced instructor has been incredibly beneficial to my martial arts.

The the second was that the instructor was upfront and no-nonsense about his prices, and the two weeks gave me time to value the level of instruction. When I first saw the prices I was a bit taken aback, but then had time to evaluate the lessons, and realized that the price is just under what you'd pay for a personal trainer at Bally's (my parents were both personal trainers at Bally's).

The final reason was that I watched the instructor closely and could tell that he was all about his students. I've been training for a year, and am in his inner circle, and while the guy does has goals for the growth of his dojo, what I hear him brag about is his students and their progress. His main mission is to train his students to have a fuller understanding of the material, in less time than it took him to learn, because he wants to train a student to where that student surpasses him.

I say when it comes to what a McDojo is, it comes to whether the instructor is out there just to make a quick buck or if he's all about his students and changed lives. Whether commercial or otherwise.

 

[grydth]

Josh, there's been a lot of discussion here from some pretty experienced folks on what a "mcdojo" is...... and as with so many things, reasonable people can disagree somewhat.

There are some things you describe that would likely bring a few "uh-oh's" here. While you should listen to what others say, what is important at the end of the day is what you think and what you get out of it. It appears you have done some research and comparison on your particular art. You sound satisfied, and you've had a year of intense training to base your opinion on.

One thing you said especially raised my curiosity, that, " I am in his inner circle".

Now, I do not know you, your instructor or your dojo...... but usually one has to be with a sensei for years and attain some significant rank to be in an "inner circle" where such exists.

 

[bydand]

Around this area, we refer to them as "Partial Arts" because that is just what they boil down to. Any school that drops their quality to retain more students would fall into that group I think regardless of the tuition cost, or the size of the school. Also a lack of approprate personal interaction between the Instructors and Students I feel pushes toward the "Partial Arts" designation, I mean this is a very personal type training and it has to be there to a certain extent. You can't just drop off your check or credit card and be handed sterilized techniques during class and expect them to click usually. What a "McDojo" is exactly I can't pin down for you, what isn't a "McDojo" I can.

The small school I go to charges $50 a month and has a family discount. Private lessons - whenever anybody needs help with something, or just can't make a class or two, the Instructor will arriange a time for private time and it is all included in the regular cost. Need to practice and don't have room in your house or apartment - ask and an extra key is given to you to use the dojo anytime you want, along with all the equipment. Really want to train, but just can't afford it for a time - Talk to him about it, and keep coming. Things will work out and you will not have lost training time (been on the recieving end of this one myself). The art is solid and there is zero comprimise on the training end of it. He has lost students who wanted a "feel good" school that they could say they were doing MA's without actually putting in the sweat and time to really train, he wouldn't water it down, so they left. You want a belt every 3 or 4 months - This is not the school for you. You want a belt when you really earn it and not a second before - This is the place.