How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[chrispillertkd]

Then you probably wouldn't like the way I do Chang Hon forms. I don't do the sine wave stuff. Primarily because that was introduced well after I learned the forms, and I've always preferred the non-sine wave versions. According to some, that would make me 'more traditional'. I just consider it a personal preference. And, frankly, I disagree with the suggestion that sine wave has any benefit.

Well, frankly, I was of the same mind set as you about sine wave when I first saw it. (Although according to GM Lee, Yoo Sun sine wave was around since the late 1960s, albeit referred to as simply "knee spring"; he was there so I figure he'd know.)

I don't care one way of the other about how people do their patterns. I've got other things to worry about.

Fair enough. How well do you think the average student is really learning them if they're never allowed to practice them in free sparring?

Depends on the person and depends on how they train those techniques.

No, I've been very clear that there is no such thing as WTF TKD. I trained ITF in my youth. Now I am with a school that is primarily a Moo Duk Kwan school but also offers Kukkiwon certification to those who want it.

I'm just not as pedantic as you, I guess. "Kwan Jang" isn't "Grand Master" either. Like I mentioned previously "WTF Taekwondo" and "ITF Taekwon-Do" are both technically incorrect, but people use them and know what they mean.

As for your school, since you said it offered KKW certificates I figured it also did WTF sparring since most of the ones I've seen do.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, frankly, I was of the same mind set as you about sine wave when I first saw it. (Although according to GM Lee, Yoo Sun sine wave was around since the late 1960s, albeit referred to as simply "knee spring"; he was there so I figure he'd know.)

Like most changes especially in the pre-internet days, it took a while to spread. I wasn't introduced to sine wave in forms until the mid- to late-70's.

Depends on the person and depends on how they train those techniques.

Fair enough. How do you train those techniques?

I'm just not as pedantic as you, I guess.

You say pedantic, I say accurate.

"Kwan Jang" isn't "Grand Master" either.

I may have said the same thing once or twice. Any good pedant would...

I use KJN correctly, to refer to the head of our school, GM KIM, Wang (Bobby).

As for your school, since you said it offered KKW certificates I figured it also did WTF sparring since most of the ones I've seen do.

We do, if someone has decided to go play in a WTF-style tourney, but it's not our primary sparring system.

 

[reeskm]

I'm a "traditional" MDK TSD practioner. I have no experience in ITF or WTF TKD other than an ITF class I tried out last week. It was worlds apart from what I do in terms of body mechanics. Also, the warmup was very different than ours. Otherwise, I felt pretty much at home.

I think a lot has been said, but to the OP, please start researching the following topics:
- Jing Wu Athletic Association and the Guoshu movement that followed it
- The history of martial arts in China since the Boxer Rebellion
- The early Okinawan and Japanese (main-land) Karate developments from approx 1900-1980
- Understand the politics of Korea post-WW2 independance, including the Korean independance movment, and the Syngman Rhee and Park Chung-Hee regimes
- All former back issues of Black Belt are free online at books.google.com. Look here for what the Koreans have written about themselves. They give away many many interesting details, if you read between the lines
- Understand how Korean and Japanese is romanized into english, and how this has changed in the last 200 years
- Read the book "A Killing Art" by Alex Gillis (A Killing Art Home page of A Killing Art a book about Tae Kwon Do)
- The history of Korea, Japan, China, Manchukuo and Mongolia from 1895-present
- Read and research the South Manchurian Railway and the history of the railroad in Korea
- Read Eric Madis' series on the history of Taekwondo on Fightingarts.com
- Understand the history of zainichi koreans and their contribution to Karate and martial arts in Japan
- Read the (controversial) biography of Richard Kim
- Pay close attention to current research and information published by researchers like Pat McCarthy. Look for hidden gems in places you least expect.
- Get your hands on as many early copies of magazines and martial arts books from Korea and Japan

You probably are less than impressed at my way to answer your OP. The answer you are looking for is right in front of you, but you must open your mind and begin reading.

 

[chrispillertkd]

- Understand the politics of Korea post-WW2 independance, including the Korean independance movment, and the Syngman Rhee and Park Chul Hee regimes

Park, Chul Hee was one of the founders of the Kang Duk Won (along with Hong, Jung Pyo).

Park, CHUNG Hee was the President of SK from 1961-1979.

Pax,

Chris

 

[reeskm]

Park, Chul Hee was one of the founders of the Kang Duk Won (along with Hong, Jung Pyo).

Park, CHUNG Hee was the President of SK from 1961-1979.

Pax,

Chris

Fixed! Thanks Chris.

 

[reeskm]

Also, a note: be careful what you belive. Don't trust a single thing you read - you need a while to build up a picture of what might have happened.

Example: I have a copy of Choi's memoirs. In it, he states he studied Karate in Kyoto while he was upgrading his high school so he could enter university in Tokyo. He claims he studied in Kyoto and that he trained in Shotokan Karate at that time. However, there are no known Shotokan karate school in Kyoto in this period. The only known schools of Karate at that time were Goju schools under the tutelage of Miyagi Chojun and Gogen Yamaguchi. Until I find evidence proving there was a Shotokan dojo in Kyoto from 1930-1942, I will find it hard to take Choi seriously on any topic. There are many other inconsistencies in his life's story. Pity, as the truth could be better than his less than accurate autobiography. Or maybe the truth wasn't as interesting...

So what was Tangsoodo like before "Taekwondo" was proposed by Choi as a name to replace it in 1955? That's a very very good question...

 

[chrispillertkd]

Fair enough. How do you train those techniques?

We train sweeps, throws, and takedowns in pre-arranged sparring to some extent but also primarily in the partner drills we do in ho sin sul which starts out with minimal resistance and gradually increases as the person gets better at the technique. (I have heard so many people try a technique on a fully resisting opponent once, have it fail, and declare "This doesn't work!" They never seem to do that when a punch misses, though. Go figure.)

We also train our joint locks in a similar fashion, although less so with them in pre-arranged sparring.

It should be remembered that Sparring, both pre-arranged and free sparring, are only analogous to a soldier's field exercises while ho sin sul is analogous to actual combat, according to Gen. Choi. This doesn't mean you're going to go full bore the first time you train with a new ho sin sul technique. It also doesn't mean you're going to be equally proficient in every ho sin sul technique you have been taught. But you should eventually reach a level where you can execute them against a resisting opponent with speed and power.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Fixed! Thanks Chris.

De nada.

I'd also point out that understanding the relationship between Gen. Choi and Park, Chung-Hee is important given that Park was court martialed and sentenced to death by a military tribunal which included Gen. Choi.

Pax,

Chris

 

[reeskm]

Yes, that's key.
I've tried to find the criminal proceedings or at least list of accused in that trial and come up with nothing. If it's what I'm thinking you're thinking - you're referring their plot to sabotage Imperial Japanese Army plans and equipment with other Korean student soldiers forcibly drafted in 1943 or so.

I can't be sure this is the same incident, but here is some historical background from a non-martial arts source:
A 1944 Korean Rebellion Within the Japanese Army The Testimony of Lieutenant Cheon Sanghwa JapanFocus
It concerns the 1944 student soldiers plot against the Imperial Japanese Army in Heijyo (Pyongyang).

I know this might not seem to address the OP's questions. However, I would argue that it gives a picture of what was going on at the time - in the very early days. I doubt many Taekwondo practitioners care to study these details but they are directly related to the art they study, regardless of what association or what "style" they claim to belong to today.

In Choi's memoirs, he relates all his life's events directly to the martial arts, and speaks to how it influenced later decisions, relationships with other martial artists and his ITF.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I think you mean Choi's memoirs

Pax,

Chris

 

[reeskm]

I think you mean Choi's memoirs

Pax,

Chris

I'm either having a bad day or I've suffered too many kicks to the head!

 

[jks9199]

All right, folks, let's try to keep things friendly and on topic. Anytime the history of a style (almost especially any version of TKD) comes up, people come out of the figurative wood pile to claim only their history is accurate and only their club's version is correct, and it gets pretty damn heated. Maybe we can make this thread an exception....

 

[RTKDCMB]

Maybe we can make this thread an exception....

Good luck with that.

 

[andyjeffries]

So what was Tangsoodo like before "Taekwondo" was proposed by Choi as a name to replace it in 1955? That's a very very good question...

Do you mean, what was "Taesoodo" like before "Taekwondo" was proposed by Choi as a name to replace it in 1955? Taekwondo has never been entirely called Tangsoodo. Most schools (MDK obviously aside) went from their founders learning Karatedo, to their own kwan names to unified Taekwondo naming, not going via Tangsoodo.

 

[Laplace_demon]

When were these types of kicks introduced:

Does it date back to 1973, when the World Taekwondo Federation was established and Choi thrown out?

I think the kicks look great. Too bad competition rules (like ITF) are less than satisfying.

 

[reeskm]

Does it date back to 1973, when the World Taekwondo Federation was established and Choi thrown out?

I think the kicks look great. Too bad competition rules (like ITF) are less than satisfying.

Ah, as I suspected, you are most familiar with "sport style" martial arts. It's not the only way!
To answer your question directly: I do not know exactly when these kicks were introduced. It's hard to say exactly.

Indirectly, this is a prime example of a sports-oriented kicking. Note how the leg leaves the ground and makes a straight line diagonal to the target area. These types of kicks are famous in WTF style as they are the quickest (straight line) to the target. They are also appearing in sport karate (for example WKF). These types of kicks are nothing new, but I do not know when they were developed. You'll notice they are also very similar to the way a lot of MMA fighters and kick boxers kick.

Please don't misunderstand - I'm not implying all MMA or sport sytlists do it this way! But Muy Thai fighters do something similar, where they don't turn their hips over completely when kicking to the side of their opponents body.

My $0.10 on these kicks are that they are fantastic for sport where scoring a point is most important. However, in my dojang I never teach this kick, unless I am teaching point-sparring. These kicks are weak and can't match a traditional round kick where you put the whole body into it!

 

[reeskm]

Do you mean, what was "Taesoodo" like before "Taekwondo" was proposed by Choi as a name to replace it in 1955? Taekwondo has never been entirely called Tangsoodo. Most schools (MDK obviously aside) went from their founders learning Karatedo, to their own kwan names to unified Taekwondo naming, not going via Tangsoodo.

No, I meant what I said.

*Edit:* Yes, I agree with you basically, that many names were used and it was not direct.
I specifically used Tangsoodo as it was the most common name used before Taekwondo was adopted. Also, it was the reason "Korean Karate" was used extensively in the west by the Koreans.

Taesoodo was an interim name used for a very short period of time before Taekwondo was promoted as the Korean government "standard". Choi never liked the name, but I know his rival Hwang Kee and some others propsed Taesoodo as a compromise to win acceptance. I know the Jidokwan was involved because their HQ Dojang in Pusan actually had "Tae Soo Do" on their dojang sign outside their door in the 60's. The Taesoodo association broke apart due to the usual Kwan rivalries. You can find some of the meeting minutes online.

There were many committees and meetings of Kwan heads in the early days. Choi was a proponent of "Taekwondo" as a name to replace the other names floating around in Korea (as previously discussed) and 1955 is, to my knowledge, around the time he first proposed the name. By 1961 when President Park led his coup, Choi used his influence in the military and as a member of the Park-led coup to force more people to use Taekwondo. It was politically forced on others.

Eventually, Choi won-out and most people adopted his name-creation for Korean "karate". This can be seen on Page 1 of Duk Sang Son's 1969 edition of "Korean Karate", where in the first sentence he talks about "karate" and by the end of the page, uses the term Taekwondo. You can literally see the evolution by studying old books, magazine articles, words instructors used to promote their schools, etc.

TangSooDo was the most common name used, and has not been dropped. These days the current romanization in DangSooDo (see dangsoodo.kr as an example).

 

[Laplace_demon]

Ah, as I suspected, you are most familiar with "sport style" martial arts. It's not the only way!
To answer your question directly: I do not know exactly when these kicks were introduced. It's hard to say exactly.

Indirectly, this is a prime example of a sports-oriented kicking. Note how the leg leaves the ground and makes a straight line diagonal to the target area. These types of kicks are famous in WTF style as they are the quickest (straight line) to the target. They are also appearing in sport karate (for example WKF). These types of kicks are nothing new, but I do not know when they were developed. You'll notice they are also very similar to the way a lot of MMA fighters and kick boxers kick.

Please don't misunderstand - I'm not implying not all do it this way!

My $0.10 on these kicks are that they are fantastic for sport where scoring a point is most important. However, in my dojang I never teach this kick, unless I am teaching point-sparring. These kicks are weak and can't match a traditional round kick where you put the whole body into it!

Oh, yes, I am quite familiar with the ups and downs of these kicks. The ones above were my first exposure to Taekwondo as a teenager.I had no idea there existed other radicially different, "karate type" styles of TKD at the time of training.

If you kick much faster, then logically you are more likely to make (relevant) impact. Speed also generates power. So, I don't quite believe in dismissing what some call sport kicks. WTF world champion Bren foster kicked the hardest in this scientific research, and I doubt an ITFer would have topped it.

I am mostly curious about their origin - is it kukkikwon or WTF or both, and were they prevalent during the 70s? To say it's sport fighting is a bit missleading, given that ITF has just as much competition as the later founded WTF.

 

[reeskm]

Laplace_demon:
See this article as a reference to this discussion:
Why Barboza doesn t turn his hips over on his kicks... - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

This type of kicking comes naturally during sport style competition. I am in no way saying that your mentioned technique or any other is "superior". I also disagree that faster kicks are *always* more powerful. Yes, I am aware of the physics involved. You also have to look at other factors, such as which pressure point or striking surface you are using, among others.

Let's see if anybody can find a very early instance of this type of speed kick? I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it was used early on in the 50's. Competition in martial arts started to become very popular around that time all over the world.

There are pros and cons to everything

 

[Laplace_demon]

Yes, I actually reflected on Muay Thai roundhouses employing similar diagonal kicks. Is the only difference the point of foot making impact? If thats the case, WTF roundhouses are actuallythe same as in MT! Funnily enough.