How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[Laplace_demon]

I agree, but you've been typing "Taekwondo" not "Taekwon-do" and referring to "umbrella", so I assumed you weren't talking specifically about only ITF Taekwon-do. You even said in your OP "The different schools of Kwans instructed by korean Karate masters all went under the umbrella term Taekwondo in 1955 onwards", referring to "Kwans" (meaning not just Ohdokwan), "umbrella" and "Taekwondo".
.

Yes, but the question is if this unification erased the chinese influences right away, or if it had to wait until 1966s ITF? ITF is closely tied to Tae Kwon Do of the 50s and early 60s. There was no fundamental change in style, from what I understand. My question is if there was any change at all, before ITF, outside of General Chois patterns.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's by definition a different style, having different patterns, and a different art, not employing shared techniques ( some are, some not).

Make up your mind. First you said they're "not the same art" and now you're saying they're different styles. Different styles and different arts are not synonymous terms.

What they are, is different styles within the same art. Styles with far more shared traits than different.

Tell me the commonalites then, besides both using their feet (in WTFs case rarely punching).

Again, there is no such thing as WTF-style. Perhaps if you ask a question that's not based on incorrect information and false assumptions, I can give you a better answer.

The dobok - not the same.

I wear a different dobak than others in our dojang. Does that mean I'm not practicing the same art?
If I wear my black dobak, am I practicing a different art than when I wear my black pants and white-with-black-diamonds dobak, is that another art too?

Damn, I had no idea I knew so many different arts!

Turning kick/ roundhouse in WTF, is NOT a Mawashi geri as in ITF and it's precedors.

The WTF, not being a style, doesn't define any techniques.
The KKW, on the other hand, does indeed have roudhouse kicks that are done quite precisely the same way as those done in the ITF.

Stance is different.

If you think any of these systems of taekwondo only teach one stance, then perhaps I can begin to understand why you seem to have such a poor understanding of them.

Stances may have different names in different schools, but I do not believe you can show me any stance taught in the ITF that is not also taught in other systems of TJD.

Punches are virtually non existent, outside of the pomsae.

Really? That's odd. Our students punch a lot. To the head, even. Perhaps you are confused by the difference between the very limited set of techniques allowed in Olympic competition and the much broader set of techniques taught in both KKW and ITF (and other) schools.

Grading is up to 10 dan, while ITF is up to 9

As with so much else in your posts, you are confused.
The WTF, being nothing other than a governing body for a sport, does not issue rank, define curriculum, or perform gradings.
The KKW grades up to 9. There have been a (very) few HONORARY (and mostly posthumous) 10th Dans awarded.
The Moo Duk Kwan grades to 9.
I don't know about all the various orgs (there are far too many), but other than Rhee TKD, I can't think of any offhand that grade to 10th Dan. And in Rhee TKD, I think GM Rhee is the only 10th Dan, so it's more an indication of who the founder is than a graded rank.

-
WTF does not recognize an ITF black belt, as a black belt of Taekwondo.
Etc.

No, the WTF did not allow ITF black belts to compete in WTF-sanctioned competitions, though this is no longer true and ITF Dan ranks are now allowed to compete in WTF-sanctioned events.
There has never been any claim that the ITF black belt is not a TKD Dan rank.
Quite the contrary. The KKW has long had a policy of offering crossover rank to dan holders from other systems of TKD. That would seem to indicate an explicit acknowledgment that these other systems ARE, in fact, TKD.

 

[andyjeffries]

There has never been any claim that the ITF black belt is not a TKD Dan rank.
Quite the contrary. The KKW has long had a policy of offering crossover rank to dan holders from other systems of TKD. That would seem to indicate an explicit acknowledgment that these other systems ARE, in fact, TKD.

Indeed, to help prove your point it's Article 2 and Article 18 of the Kukkiwon promotion regulations

 

[Laplace_demon]

Make up your mind. First you said they're "not the same art" and now you're saying they're different styles. Different styles and different arts are not synonymous terms.

No. They are BOTH different styles per definition, and are different arts because of the difference in delivering kicks. Not only the body mechanics, but also stances

WTFers wide array of aerail spinning kicks are not part of an offical ITF Taekwon-DO school. We don't master aerials beyond tornados and flying sidekicks, simply because they are not part of ITF/traditional Taekwondo.

Really? That's odd. Our students punch a lot. To the head, even. Perhaps you are confused by the difference between the very limited set of techniques allowed in Olympic competition and the much broader set of techniques taught in both KKW and ITF (and other) schools.

You claimed yourself to be a Dan Rank in Both ITF and WTF. Why am I not surprised then your students are taught punches (to the head?). Irrelevant, being that you are a Dan Rank of both organisations.

No, the WTF did not allow ITF black belts to compete in WTF-sanctioned competitions, though this is no longer true and ITF Dan ranks are now allowed to compete in WTF-sanctioned events.
There has never been any claim that the ITF black belt is not a TKD Dan rank.
Quite the contrary. The KKW has long had a policy of offering crossover rank to dan holders from other systems of TKD. That would seem to indicate an explicit acknowledgment that these other systems ARE, in fact, TKD.

And why did they not allow ITFers to compete, if it's the same martial art, and they are recognized as black belts of the same art Taekwondo?

They must have changed their minds!

 

[andyjeffries]

...they are not part of ITF/traditional Taekwondo.

I'd be very wary of saying "traditional Taekwondo" to mean ITF.

a) You spell it the Kukkiwon/WTF way not the ITF way (according to the WTF magazine which specifically talks about how to write it and General Choi's own encyclopaedia which consistently spells it as Taekwon-do always, on how both organisations want it spelt - also see this ITF practitioner's blog post for more information)

b) The kwans that unified to form Kukki-Taekwondo under the KTA group pre-date the founding of the ITF, so therefore surely that organisation (and it's international representatives Kukkiwon and WTF) is the real "Traditional" Taekwondo.

And why did they not allow ITFers to compete, if it's the same martial art, and they are recognized as black belts of the same art Taekwondo? They must have changed their minds!

Very simply because a requirement of WTF competition going back many decades is a 1st Dan Kukkiwon certificate. This certification was open to ITF Taekwon-doin as per the Kukkiwon Rules link I posted above. Recently there was a "change of mind" when the WTF and ITF signed a Memorandum of Understanding to allow ITF members (for a particular definition of "ITF") to compete in WTF competitions without obtaining Kukkiwon certification.

The reason was simply that before this point the WTF didn't recognise them as black belts of the same art, their rules states only Kukkiwon certification was acceptable. The Kukkiwon stated they would assimilate anybody, so it was therefore always open that way. Now it's just more open

 

[Laplace_demon]

Kukkiwon, WTF, call it whatever you want They do posses quite radically different skill sets in kicking from an ITF practitioner or equivalent. And their roundhouse kick is not Mawashi Geri.

ITF is based on the Taekwondo promoted by General Choi in the 50 and 60s. It doesn't get more traditional than that.

 

[Laplace_demon]

For the gentleman claiming WTF is not a style. Can you name me a WTF affiliated-school teaching Tull patterns, as opposed to Pomsae? Instructors WTF graded only (doesn't count if you are a master of both)

Or, an ITF school teaching Pomsae patterns.

Thanks.

 

[Dirty Dog]

No. They are BOTH different styles per definition, and are different arts because of the difference in delivering kicks. Not only the body mechanics, but also stances

You say this, but you have yet to provide an example of a stance that is used in Kukki-TKD or ITF-Taekwon-Do that is not used in the other. Nor any example of a kick that isn't used in both. Nor, well, ANY support for anything you've claimed.
Claiming that Taekwon-Do and Taekwondo are different arts is, frankly, idiotic.

WTFers wide array of aerail spinning kicks are not part of an offical ITF Taekwon-DO school. We don't master aerials beyond tornados and flying sidekicks, simply because they are not part of ITF/traditional Taekwondo.

Funny, I did a lot more aerial and acrobatic kicks when I was a youngster in studying Taekwon-Do than I ever have training Taekwondo.

You claimed yourself to be a Dan Rank in Both ITF and WTF. Why am I not surprised then your students are taught punches (to the head?). Irrelevant, being that you are a Dan Rank of both organisations.

Neither my Master nor our Kwanjangnim has ever had anything to do with the ITF. Our Kwanjangnim was, originally, a direct student of GM HWANG, Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan but chose to stay with GM LEE, Kang-Ik and the unification movement after GM HWANG split off.

They both teach punching. To the head. And they did so for lots of years before either ever met me.

Oooops...

And why did they not allow ITFers to compete, if it's the same martial art, and they are recognized as black belts of the same art Taekwondo?
They must have changed their minds!

For the same reason the NCAA doesn't allow schools that are not members of the NCAA to play in THEIR events. They certainly don't claim those other schools are playing different sports...

Kukkiwon, WTF, call it whatever you want They do posses quite radically different skill sets in kicking from an ITF practitioner or equivalent. And their roundhouse kick is not Mawashi Geri.

Sure, call it whatever you want. There's no reason to be accurate, or correct, or anything crazy like that.

ITF is based on the Taekwondo promoted by General Choi in the 50 and 60s. It doesn't get more traditional than that.

Kukki-TKD is based on the taekondo promoted by General Choi before the ITF ever existed. I guess that would make it more traditional, after all.

For the gentleman claiming WTF is not a style. Can you name me a WTF affiliated-school, teaching Tull patterns, as opposed to Pomsae?

Of course not, because there ARE no WTF-affiliated schools. The WTF is a sanctioning body for a specific sort of competitive event following a specifc set of rules and based on a specific sub-set of taekwondo.

Instructors are wtf graded only.

Show me an instructor who claims rank from the WTF, and I'll show you a fraud. The WTF does not issue rank.

Or, an ITF school teaching Pomsae patterns.

Thanks.

You don't actually know what the words Tul, Poomsae or Hyung mean, do you?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Neither my Master nor our Kwanjangnim has ever had anything to do with the ITF. Our Kwanjangnim was, originally, a direct student of GM HWANG, Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan but chose to stay with GM LEE, Kang-Ik and the unification movement after GM HWANG split off.

You were the one claiming in the thread, to be ITF Dan rank. If you don't like that description, pick something else.

You don't actually know what the words Tul, Poomsae or Hyung mean, do you?

"In the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) patterns are usually referred to as Poomse. in International Taekwondo Federation (ITF) they are sometimes called tul"

Taekwondo Patterns

 

[Laplace_demon]

Kukki-TKD is based on the taekondo promoted by General Choi before the ITF ever existed. I guess that would make it more traditional, after all.

Did you not know the ITF was founded in 1966? he promoted his taekwondo in the 50 and early 60s, before establishing his organisation.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't know if you're referring to GM Yoon of Changmookwan, but my recollecting from reading a lot about my kwan (without noting any references, so take this with a pinch of salt) was that he was 4th Dan in Shudokan. At that time though 5th Dan was the highest Dan attainable, so a 4th Dan should certainly considered master rank.

You may be correct. I've seen 4th, 5th and 7th depending upon the source material. But yes, certainly he was at 'master' rank regardless of which is correct.

 

[andyjeffries]

ITF is based on the Taekwondo promoted by General Choi in the 50 and 60s. It doesn't get more traditional than that.

Yes. It does.

Chungdokwan - founded 1944
Jidokwan - founded 1946
Songmookwan - founded 1946
Changmookwan - founded 1946
Moodukkwan - founded unknown (after 1946)
Ohdokwan - founded in 1953 by General Choi

ITF Taekwon-doin definitely don't have the monopoly, let alone the best claim on "traditional" ;-)

Did you not know the ITF was founded in 1966? he promoted his taekwondo in the 50 and early 60s, before establishing his organisation.

I know the ITF was founded in 1966, I know the KTA was founded in 1959 and as I posted above, I know the Kwan founding dates before that (including schools founded before General Choi founded his).

I also know that in 1959 the person that signed General Choi's honorary 4th Dan Taekwondo certificate publicly revoked it in the national newspaper in Korea (translation from article reposted in A Modern History of Taekwondo by KANG Won Sik and LEE Kyong Myong, Bokyung Moonhwasa, ISBN 89-358-0124-0 - if you understand Korean I'm happy to post a scan of the pages in Korean):

"NAM Tae Hi asked me to give a dan certificate to 29th Infantry Division commander CHOI Hong Hi, who had some experience in martial art (Sado), so we could use his military authority to spread the Chung Do Kwan. To contribute to Taekwondo's development, I gave an Honorary 4th Dan certificate signed by myself, SON Duk Sung, to CHOI Hong Hi in front of the 3rd Army commander in 1955.

In 1957, Choi insisted that I give him a 6th Dan and sent a certificate he prepared in my name for me to sign. Because Choi and I were sworn brothers, and because my younger brother had a 6th Dan, he wanted one also. I tore up the certificate he sent to me without
signing it.

General Choi was also sending instructors (Sabums) to Vietnam, but he did that on his own authority and chose the number of instructors to send without consulting me. He also lied and stated that he had 24 years experience in martial arts practice (Sa Do Soo Ryun) and spread propaganda about himself. Therefore, it was unavoidable that I had to cancel his Honorary 4th Dan certificate and Honorary Kwan Jang position. "

Funny how General Choi never mentions that the Dan certificate he had in Taekwondo was only an honorary one nor that it was revoked/cancelled... Anyway, this goes to show there were other people more senior than him in Taekwondo (which even he obviously acknowledged at the time or he wouldn't have asked for higher Dan rank, he'd have just said "as the founder, I am considering myself X Dan from now").

Anyway, I'm happy to acknowledge General Choi's involvement in making Taekwondo as popular as it is today, however he only gets some of the credit, there are a lot of other people who also devoted their lives to developing and popularising our beloved art and I feel that they shouldn't be excluded just because General Choi had the loudest megaphone (and arguably ego).

 

[andyjeffries]

You may be correct. I've seen 4th, 5th and 7th depending upon the source material. But yes, certainly he was at 'master' rank regardless of which is correct.

That's cool, I am just less aware of other kwan's founders than my own kwan so I didn't know if there was more Shudokwan kwanjangs. Maybe the higher ranks were a conversion to "modern money", as people tend to do when discussing in article (e.g. "that would be worth X in modern money").

 

[Dirty Dog]

You were the one claiming in the thread, to be ITF Dan rank. If you don't like that description, pick something else.

(Where's that facepalm emoji???)
I also mentioned that I have Dan rank in Kukki-TKD and teach at a Moo Duk Kwan school. Is that too complicated for you to understand?

So will you be providing an example of a stance that's used in Taekwon-Do that is not also used in Taekwondo? I suspect not. Basically, because you can't.

Here's a picture of an ITF practitioner in a front stance I grabbed off the internet.

And here is a picture of one of our students in a front stance.


Identical... other than camera angles.

"In the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) patterns are usually referred to as Poomse. in International Taekwondo Federation (ITF) they are sometimes called tul"

Taekwondo Patterns

So, basically, that's a no. You do not know what the words poomsae, tul and hyung mean.
I'll give you a hint... The Korean language has synonyms, just as English does.

Did you not know the ITF was founded in 1966? he promoted his taekwondo in the 50 and early 60s, before establishing his organisation.

Did you not know that prior to forming the ITF, General Choi was a member of the unification movement and the KTA and, in fact, promoted the unified curriculum before establishing his own organization?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Pomsae signifies WTFs pattern, which are completely different from ITF patterns. And you will not find an ITF school using pomsae, and by that I mean the kukiwon-ones. That's why your claim that the organisations dont' denote changes of styles, is false. If the organisation had nothing to do with the practice, they could teach the patterns from whatever style they wanted. But WTF have their way, and ITF has their own way. I hope I made my point clearer by now. The stance in WTF patterns are not even remotely similiar to ITF.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Pomsae signifies WTFs pattern, which are completely different from ITF patterns.

That is completely incorrect. Poomsae, hyung and tul are synonyms. The terms may be used interchangeably.

And you will not find an ITF school using pomsae,

Yes you will. Every single one uses poomsae, although the convention at ITF schools is to use the term tul instead. A rose by any other name...

and by that I mean the kukiwon-ones. That's why your claim that the organisations dont' denote changes of styles, is false.

At this point, you're just being intentionally obtuse. YOU have claimed that taekwondo and taekwon-do are not the same ART. I never made any such ridiculous claim. They are different orgs, both of which teach taekwondo.

If the organisation had nothing to do with the practice, they could teach the patterns from whatever style they wanted. But WTF have their way, and ITF has their own way.

Instructors can, in fact, teach whatever poomsae/hyung/tul they want. I practice (and teach) Palgwae, Taegeuk and Chang Hon forms. There are literally uncountable numbers of schools that teach forms from more than one flavor of TKD.

I hope I made my point clearer by now.

Sorry, but from what I've seen, you don't actually have a point. You have a lot of incorrect information and false assumptions, but that's pretty much it.

The stance in WTF patterns are not even remotely similiar to ITF.

You keep asserting this, but offer no reason to believe you. I just posted photos of ITF and MDK/KKW students in identical (and correctly done) stances.

At this point it is painfully obvious that you haven't a clue what you're talking about, are unable to provide the slightest bit of support for your claims (your already disproven assertions do no count as support), and are even incapable of remembering which silly claims you've made.

Have a nice life.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Everything from Shotokan. The "non sport" sparring/kumite is identical to Shotokan, as you you can see from 5:00 here:

The exact same for my three step sparring gradings in ITF.

It's interesting to note that, from an ITF perspective, the distancing between the two practitioners in their demonstration of 5 step sparring and 3 step sparring is too far. Also, in ITF 3 step sparring all attacks are to the same area whereas in the video you posted they were varied. That would make it very odd if you were doing 3 step sparring like the video for your testings if you were an ITF student (although your instructor could have simply varied things on his own).

The ITF has in its syllabus 3 step, 2 step, and 1 step sparring. I am under the impression that Shotokan has 5 step, 3 step and 1 step sparring.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

¨This thread is about before 1966, though. I am curious why it took General Choi ten years to establish ITF, and their own patterns? What did he do in between?

He had developed his patterns before 1966 (at least 20 of the 24). Besides that he was organizing the first Korea Taekwon-Do Association, organizing some international demonstration tours, and was the South Korean ambassador to Malaysia.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

I personally have always found ITF Taekwon-do's execution to be much closer to Karate-style than Kukkiwon Taekwondo is. It feels to me like ITF is stuck in the 60s/70s in its execution/style whereas Kukkiwon Taekwondo has moved on since then.

Whereas when I trained in KKW Taekwondo after training in ITF Taekwon-Do for some years I found the exact opposite sentiment to be true, as does a friend of mine who is ranked as a 5th dan by both the ITF and KKW

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

I don't know if you're referring to GM Yoon of Changmookwan, but my recollecting from reading a lot about my kwan (without noting any references, so take this with a pinch of salt) was that he was 4th Dan in Shudokan. At that time though 5th Dan was the highest Dan attainable, so a 4th Dan should certainly considered master rank.

As far as I can tell GM Yoon was probably the highest formally ranked Kwan founder. Many people will point out that GM Lee, Won Kuk founded the first Kwan (if you ignore GM Rho founding the Song Moo Kwan and then closing it for period of time) and so say he's senior. But rank wise, I think GM Yoon was higher.

Pax,

Chris