How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[Dirty Dog]

Foster generated a ton of force. This is a fact, regardless if he had faced 30000 different styles or not. The claim that these types of roundhouse kicks are fundamentally "weak" is disproven. I am not advocating he kicks the hardest, only that they are indeed just as potentially powerful, and not the way old school advocates likes to portray them.

Foster had the good sense to turn his hip over. That IS the more powerful version.



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[Metal]

First I gotta say that following or believing whatever somebody says, just because that person is holding a high rank is stupid.

There's a reason why people talk about WTF-Taekwondo and why people talk about Taekwondo being 2000 years old. It's the instructors, masters and grandmasters who pass this on to those who train under them. Those who're lucky to find instructors who would go more into detail or those people who do some research will get to learn about the role of WTF, Kukkiwon, KTA and other national member organizations.

I don't really see a problem wih people talking about WTF Taekwondo being their style of Taekwondo since WTF and Kukkiwon used to be and still are pretty close. In the early days of the Kukkiwon the WTF secretariat was located in the Kukkiwon. Plus Dr. Kim Un-Yong was president of the WTF, Kukkiwon and KTA.

Whenever somebody would ask me what style of TKD I train I'd always say Kukkiwon though. ;-)

And while the WTF is just the governing body that's taking care of the sport-side of Taekwondo they issued Poomsae books in the past though:

This doesn't help to identify the style of Taekwondo that somebody's practising as Kukkiwon Taekwondo, either.


And then on top of that a lot of the national member organisations of the WTF issue their own Dan certifications and even called the Kukkiwon Dan "WTF Dan" for many years. Actually some may still call it WTF Dan.

 

[Laplace_demon]

A couple of points.

No one is claiming they are fundamentally weak, only that they are less powerful. Bren Foster also has black belts in Hapkido and Hwarangdo, those two arts are also a factor in how much power he produced.

Foster performed a TKD kick, and his black belt in Hapkido has nothing to do with it. Pure speculation on your part, probably because your a hapkido performer.

And to your claim that nobody said these kicks are "weak"

My $0.10 on these kicks are that they are fantastic for sport where scoring a point is most important. However, in my dojang I never teach this kick, unless I am teaching point-sparring. These kicks are weak and can't match a traditional round kick where you put the whole body into it!

 

[Laplace_demon]

First I gotta say that following or believing whatever somebody says, just because that person is holding a high rank is stupid.

There's a reason why people talk about WTF-Taekwondo and why people talk about Taekwondo being 2000 years old. It's the instructors, masters and grandmasters who pass this on to those who train under them. Those who're lucky to find instructors who would go more into detail or those people who do some research will get to learn about the role of WTF, Kukkiwon, KTA and other national member organizations.

I don't really see a problem wih people talking about WTF Taekwondo being their style of Taekwondo since WTF and Kukkiwon used to be and still are pretty close. In the early days of the Kukkiwon the WTF secretariat was located in the Kukkiwon. Plus Dr. Kim Un-Yong was president of the WTF, Kukkiwon and KTA.

View attachment 19073


Whenever somebody would ask me what style of TKD I train I'd always say Kukkiwon though. ;-)

And while the WTF is just the governing body that's taking care of the sport-side of Taekwondo they issued Poomsae books in the past though:

View attachment 19074
View attachment 19075

This doesn't help to identify the style of Taekwondo that somebody's practising as Kukkiwon Taekwondo, either.


And then on top of that a lot of the national member organisations of the WTF issue their own Dan certifications and even called the Kukkiwon Dan "WTF Dan" for many years. Actually some may still call it WTF Dan.

Whenever my instructor or anybody else, refers to olympic taekwondo students, they always say WTF. The problem with having the name of Taekwondo on both of these systems, is that someone, such as myself, who excels and takes great pleasure at developing aerial kicks, and rejects old school roundhuse kicks (which almost nobody uses in the ring), are quite disappointed to find that the most aerial kicking trained here, is a simple fly kick....... And I like my master and don't want to betray him, but still I would have so much more fun with more advanced kicks.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Foster had the good sense to turn his hip over. That IS the more powerful version.

As does the Taekwondo guys. It's all a matter of degree. You are splitting hairs at this point.

Edit: The kick in the pomsae book looked awfully familiar!

 

[RTKDCMB]

Foster performed a TKD kick, and his black belt in Hapkido has nothing to do with it.

I assume you are referring to me as you have not quoted me specifically but are responding to something I said.

Pure speculation on your part, probably because your a hapkido performer.

Since some information on my profile seems to be missing so I will just state my experience here. I would not call myself a performer but I studied Hapkido for a total of 14 months in the 18 months I was not studying Rhee Tae Kwon Do, which I have been studying since 1987. And Hapkido has the same kick by the way, at least the one that I was in did anyway.

And to your claim that nobody said these kicks are "weak"

Well he must be nobody then.

 

[Archtkd]

There's a reason why people talk about WTF-Taekwondo and why people talk about Taekwondo being 2000 years old. It's the instructors, masters and grandmasters who pass this on to those who train under them. Those who're lucky to find instructors who would go more into detail or those people who do some research will get to learn about the role of WTF, Kukkiwon, KTA and other national member organizations.

I don't really see a problem wih people talking about WTF Taekwondo being their style of Taekwondo since WTF and Kukkiwon used to be and still are pretty close. In the early days of the Kukkiwon the WTF secretariat was located in the Kukkiwon. Plus Dr. Kim Un-Yong was president of the WTF, Kukkiwon and KTA. .

Very good points. I think for the general public, and to lots of beginniners in taekwondo the details of style don't matter. When one comes on MT, though, and makes bold blanket statements, which he or she claims to be fact, we can hold them to a higher standard and expect them to argue from a positition of knowledge.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Since some information on my profile seems to be missing so I will just state my experience here. I would not call myself a performer but I studied Hapkido for a total of 14 months in the 18 months I was not studying Rhee Tae Kwon Do, which I have been studying since 1987. And Hapkido has the same kick by the way, at least the one that I was in did anyway.

I got dissed pretty badly for employing it. I presumed a 4th dan assistent instructor would know by now....

However, my main instructor (Yeo) never corrected me for going diagonally. Confusing!

 

[Earl Weiss]

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This thread is about before 1966, though. I am curious why it took General Choi ten years to establish ITF, and their own patterns? What did he do in between?

This statements is factualy incorrect. It did not take 10 years to establish patterns.

Have you posted in other groups as "ITF-Taekwon-Do" You seem to have similar misinformation.

 

[Laplace_demon]

This statements is factualy incorrect. It did not take 10 years to establish patterns.

Have you posted in other groups as "ITF-Taekwon-Do" You seem to have similar misinformation.

Not if you go by Chois bio, and his own accounts. He worked on finishing specific patterns in the 60s. This can only mean the 24 patterns were not completed by then.

 

[Dirty Dog]

This statements is factualy incorrect. It did not take 10 years to establish patterns.

Have you posted in other groups as "ITF-Taekwon-Do" You seem to have similar misinformation.

Not if you go by Chois bio, and his own accounts. He worked on finishing specific patterns in the 60s. This can only mean the 24 patterns were not completed by then.

Let me guess... you're unaware that you're talking to a Taekwon-Do VIII Dan who was tested by Gen Choi, right?

Where's that facepalm emoticon?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Let me guess... you're unaware that you're talking to a Taekwon-Do VIII Dan who was tested by Gen Choi, right?

Where's that facepalm emoticon?

The 24 Chang Hon patterns were not in existence in the 50s. Do you suddenly wish to dispute this?

 

[Dirty Dog]

The 24 Chang Hon patterns were not in existence in the 50s. Do you suddenly wish to dispute this?

Do you actually read the things that are said to you? Do you have some reading comprehension problem?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Do you actually read the things that are said to you? Do you have some reading comprehension problem?

It took around 10 years for the 24 forms to be completed. If Earl wants to dispute the time involved was 9 or 8 years, fine. Who cares. It's still long after Taekwondo (1955).

 

[Buka]

As to the questions in the OP - I'm not sure, I wasn't there.
As to questions in TKD as it is now, I'm not sure, I'm not there.
But as to my time while I was in TKD - I hope you guys are enjoying it as much as I did. And I hope it unites you, rather than separates you on a forum.

 

[Metal]

Not if you go by Chois bio, and his own accounts. He worked on finishing specific patterns in the 60s. This can only mean the 24 patterns were not completed by then.

This is actually quite easy to check.

All you need to do is check the first English edition of Choi's "Taekwon-Do - The Art of Self-Defence", published in 1965. There you'll find 20 of the Chan Hong forms plus Karate forms of the Sho-Rin and Sho-Rei Schools.

Four more Chang Hon patterns were added after 1965.


The 1965 version of the book is out there as a PDF.

I would be interested in later versions if anybody has them in digital format.

 

[Laplace_demon]

As to the questions in the OP - I'm not sure, I wasn't there.
As to questions in TKD as it is now, I'm not sure, I'm not there.
But as to my time while I was in TKD - I hope you guys are enjoying it as much as I did. And I hope it unites you, rather than separates you on a forum.

Then why comment?

This is actually quite easy to check.

All you need to do is check the first English edition of Choi's "Taekwon-Do - The Art of Self-Defence", published in 1965. There you'll find 20 of the Chan Hong forms plus Karate forms of the Sho-Rin and Sho-Rei Schools.

Four more Chang Hon patterns were added after 1965.


The 1965 version of the book is out there as a PDF.

I would be interested in later versions if anybody has them in digital format.

Exactly. So how am I incorrect in saying it took around 10 years, going from 1955 - 1966 (ITF)?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Let me guess... you're unaware that you're talking to a Taekwon-Do VIII Dan who was tested by Gen Choi, right?
QUOTE]

Thank you , but so as not to mislead anyone. General Choi was never on a test board when I tested. I did test at an IIC in 2002 that he was at. Perhaps I and the other person who tested were the last to test for VII in the ITF during his life. Was nice to hear him call me "Master" following the test.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Do you actually read the things that are said to you? Do you have some reading comprehension problem?

I am wondering if he reads what he writes. "
New
↑
¨


This thread is about before 1966, though. I am curious why it took General Choi ten years to establish ITF, and their own patterns? What did he do in between?
"

First he references "any patterns", then he references all 24. He also cannot seem to diferentiate when a pattern is created and a time lag from creation to the first english publication date. However, in todays world of immediacy it can be understood how a younger person could not grasp the time involved to type something on a manual typewriter assemble photos, submit for publication and then get it published over 50 years ago.

As an aside, asked several people under 30 what a "33 1/3 LP was" Try it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I am wondering if he reads what he writes.

A valid question.