How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[Earl Weiss]

That video is puzzling. Is he saying that they should never twist their waist or that they ARE never twisting their waist?

And is he saying that power can be added into that second forward punch by essentially falling backward away from it as part of the sine wave drop? Sounds iffy...

See my prior post #440

 

[Gnarlie]

It's hard to tell exactly what's going on from the video. All I can say is when I have asked about this I've been personally told there must be no backwards motion by some people in the ITF with rank that can only be described as stratospheric. In the video it looks to me like Gen. Choi is holding his back straight and not letting him twist from side to side because that is the thing he is concentrating on teaching at that time. I've seen plenty of people teach and only focus on one or two things instead of everything that needs to be fixed. I do it myself at times. It's just a question of priorities.



I think you may have made a typo here as before I mentioned you negate the backwards motion by unbending the front knee. As a note, this shouldn't result in the front leg becoming completely straight. The front knee should remain flexed slightly. But as you straighten it the body lifts and then drops without the backwards motion seen in this video, which results in the settling down of the weight into the punch with no backwards motion taking power away from the technique.



Much like a sitting stance itself (a "horse stance") which has it's primary use as training the legs to get stronger, IMHO using sine wave while stationary is a training tool to get the students used to raising and dropping their weight. While a sitting stance does have other uses standing in one and throwing front punches is likely less directly applicable than the strengthening of the legs that is going on at the same time. Similarly, shuffling the weight in a stationary position does help you sink your mass into the technique, but it seems to be more important as a learning method so the student can easier generalize what's happening when actually stepping.

Pax,

Chris

Thank you Chris, that makes sense, and yes, it was a typo.

I agree about the stationary use of horse stance.

If sine wave is intended to add the assistance of gravity to a stepped technique, then it makes sense. I would even go so far as to say that a similar principle is at play with KKW stepping, although the knee bending is not pronounced, and no up down motion of the head is visible. There is an element of dropping weight into stances though.

 

[Earl Weiss]

IMO the person demonstrating is doing a poor job there. The backwards motion should be negated by engaging the knee of the front leg.

Pax,

Chris

Agreed, though sadly it seems to be an all too common error also caused in part by raising the rear heel without bending the rear knee as you see General Choi do in the video.

 

[Gnarlie]

Watch General Choi's rear leg when he demonstrates, the bending of the knee and lifting of the heel. Then do a search for "Kinetic Linking" "Closed Chain Linking" and the Fight science video. It's the same thing. Agreed that the student has excessive forward and backward motion.

This video and comment about "Don't Twist your body" is a classic example of taxing an excerpt of something he said and thinking it was meant to be exhaustive, exclusive and all encompassing when instead he would say something to make a point and that is not how he meant it. How do I know? Because at the very same courses he would address using the hips and abdomen to generate power.

AFAIAC he was making a point about excessive twisting for this student.

Thank you. I didn't want to take it out of context, my issue was it didn't fit with the context of anything else I understood about ITF mechanics.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I agree that the General does move differently to the student.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I would assume in any case that a truly traditional ITF school, not geared towards ITF competition (in which sine wave is mandatory) could teach it either way. I at any rate don't concider sine wave a defining characteristic of ITF Taekwon-Do. Something which only gained prominence in the 80s, as a direct result of an overly ambitious, brain storming General Choi. My school is geared towards competition and teaches sine wave.

And above we have a succinct case of another rash generalization based on limited observations.
First and foremeost you "Assime" what a "truly Traditional" ITF school would do. Generalizatuion #1: seems that you confuse the organizations with a style. ITF demotes organizations and "tradititional" is impossible to identify. Suffice it to say, as already pointed out that the orgs use what has been called "Sine Wave" since the 1980's.

Generalization #2 as to when Sine wave gained prominence. I can't speak for the entire world. In the USA the knee flexing was referred to as Spring Style and was prominent since the early 1970's. Flexing the knee is referred to in the 1972 text. I would have to re check the 1965 text.

 

[Earl Weiss]

[QUOTE="

The "Like this" or "Not like this" approach would probably be a big improvement over a lot of teaching methods that I see. [/QUOTE]

Except that at times it is difficult or impossible for the student to discern the difference. So much so that it is a running koke with an instructor posting identical pictures on the wall with different captions one saying "Like This" and the other saying "Not like this".

 

[Gnarlie]

[QUOTE="

The "Like this" or "Not like this" approach would probably be a big improvement over a lot of teaching methods that I see.

Except that at times it is difficult or impossible for the student to discern the difference. So much so that it is a running koke with an instructor posting identical pictures on the wall with different captions one saying "Like This" and the other saying "Not like this".[/QUOTE]
Sounds familar [emoji14]

 

[Earl Weiss]

I understand the use of sine wave for motions where there is a step forward, adding gravity as an assistive force. But on the spot as it is here, or in a stationary horse stance, I can't get my head round what it actually adds.

See the following starting at 1:15

 

[Gnarlie]

See the following starting at 1:15

Blocked in Germany on copyright grounds :/

I think I have seen the clip though.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Blocked in Germany on copyright grounds :/

I think I have seen the clip though.

And in Australia.

 

[TrueJim]

And in Australia.

Populated with criminals. We can't let those Aussies pirate our taekwondo videos!

 

[RTKDCMB]

Populated with criminals. We can't let those Aussies pirate our taekwondo videos!

All of our criminals originally came from overseas.

 

[Tez3]

It's blocked in UK as well
We used to send the wayward sons to Oz too if they made too many maidservants pregnant or lost too much money at the gaming tables.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If a video is "Blocked" as part of a post, is it also blocked if you provide a link?

 

[Tez3]

I went to You Tube and got the same blocked message.

 

[elder999]

Watch General Choi's rear leg when he demonstrates, the bending of the knee and lifting of the heel. Then do a search for "Kinetic Linking" "Closed Chain Linking" and the Fight science video. (post #448 Below) It's the same thing. Agreed that the student has excessive forward and backward motion.

This video and comment about "Don't Twist your body" is a classic example of taxing an excerpt of something he said and thinking it was meant to be exhaustive, exclusive and all encompassing when instead he would say something to make a point and that is not how he meant it. How do I know? Because at the very same courses he would address using the hips and abdomen to generate power.

AFAIAC he was making a point about excessive twisting for this student.

So he's not saying "don't twist," but maybe more, "don't twist so much?"

 

[TrueJim]

If a video is "Blocked" as part of a post, is it also blocked if you provide a link?

As I understand it, yes. When you travel from country to country, different parts of YouTube get blocked, depending on the copyright law in that country. So even providing the link won't fix the problem, the content will still be blocked.

Example: Like a lot of kids, my son and I recreated our dojang in Minecraft. Then later we started using that Minecraft world to make YouTube videos. Then still later, I used that Minecraft world to advertise our school's upcoming Open House. I used the spooky theme from Halloween as the background music. YouTube is really clever though: they scan uploaded content for copyrighted materials using 'bots, and then block depending on copyright law by country. So for example when I uploaded this video (with the copyrighted Halloween theme), I got an automatic notification that the video could not be viewed in Germany due to copyright.

We also made a Minecraft Demo Team video using the music of Choi So-ri, and that didn't get blocked, not even in Germany. So the 'bots are smart enough apparently to know what materials are permissible where. It's actually pretty sophisticated, and pretty cool.

 

[Gnarlie]

And easily circumvented using Anonymox, the Firefox VPN tunneling extension, effectively rendering all that cool technology down to something largely pointless and annoying. But that would be naughty.

 

[Earl Weiss]

So he's not saying "don't twist," but maybe more, "don't twist so much?"

IMO - Yes.

There seemd to be an issue where if he said something was good some condiered more of the same better. This lea to excessive hip twist and excessive "down" of the down up down motion later termed "Sine Wave".

 

[Laplace_demon]

You obviously know more about this than I do so I would only ask upon what you're basing this belief. It certainly can't be that it only gained prominence in the 80's because it existed even in the 1960's, according to the then-ITF Chief Instructor. I've also heard Gen. Choi as well as three of his highest ranking and longest lasting students all talk about the importance of sine wave to Gen. Choi's system. But I would appreciate any light you could shed on this for me.

You clearly don't understand the meaning of gaining prominence. The fact that Choi may have pondered/theorised on this concept in the late 60, does not make it exist, let alone prominent. If it was truly materialised in the late 60s, then it sure took a long time for the word to get out:


"So now we get into the controversial area of the sine-wave. As a note of interest sine-wave was introduced at a seminar in Derby by the General in 1983"

Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy

My instructor, Master Chin-Yuat Yeo (8 dan), who has trained in ITF since 1966, graded by General Choi, said the 80s too, regarding sine wave.