How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[Laplace_demon]

Another thing ; How often do you see this traditional, ultra, move-your-body-behind turning kick in competition. Not even ITF guys, in ITF tournaments ever use it.

Shouldn't this tell us something about it's effectiveness, power non withstanding?

 

[elder999]

How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

An awful lot like a bunch of Korean gentleman doing Shotokan karate.

 

[TrueJim]

An awful lot like a bunch of Korean gentleman doing Shotokan karate.

Funny.

On a more serious note though...

For the longest time I've heard Shotokan mentioned as the primary karate influence on taekwondo. But then I was doing some reading recently and I noticed this:

• Choi Hong-Hi, of course, is said to have studied Shotokan
• Likewise Lee Won-Kuk (Chung Do Kwan)
• Likewise Ro Byung-Jick (Song Moo Kwan)
• But Yoon Byung-In (YMCA Kwon Bop Bu) is said to have studied Shūdōkan karate under Kanken Toyoma
• And Yoon Kwe-Byung (Jido Kwan) is said to have studied Shitō-ryū karate.

Do I have all that right?

So my question is this...why do we so often reference Shotokan when discussing the origins of taekwondo, but not Shūdōkan and Shitō-ryū ? In terms of karate influences, does Shotokan get too much of the credit?

 

[Gnarlie]

Interesting Chris. The 'bit chagi' is I believe as you describe it, but both the term and the mechanic of that kick have changed over the last 10 years or so. The term means 'angled kick', referring to the path it takes into the target, somewhere between apchagi and dollyo.

The term 'dollyo chagi' now seems to be in wider use within Kukki TKD, at least based on my experience.

The mechanic has become more of a knee up chamber similar to apchagi, no longer taking a 45 degree tilted path, and now turning the hip in only at the very end of the kick and carrying that rotation along the axis of the leg to transfer power into the target. The hip can be turned over fully or just to 45 degrees depending on the target and desired next step. This is deceptive (several kinds of kick with the same chamber path), fast due to the chambered knee bend, does not telegraph from the same wide angle as bit chagi, and facilitates hip switch kicking. It also does not compromise power to achieve those advantages.

 

[Tez3]

It is not the same thing. Do you seriously wish to challenge a philosophy undergraduate in verbal comprehension? Have you ever concidered the possibility of the talent pool being weaker? or the progression being irrelevant stuff? Progression carries with it different connotations.

Go fetch them, bring them on here and I will, as a graduate in English I'm up for anything..

 

[Gnarlie]

Another thing ; How often do you see this traditional, ultra, move-your-body-behind turning kick in competition. Not even ITF guys, in ITF tournaments ever use it.

Shouldn't this tell us something about it's effectiveness, power non withstanding?

It should tell us about its effectiveness in the context of competition against a trained opponent. Not much else.

 

[RTKDCMB]

OK, time for a physics lesson.

Also speed increases mass

Although I am sure you meant something else, that statement is actually correct. This effect is part of General Relativity and is negligible except for velocities approaching the speed of light.

but even at the speed of light the mass is apparently constant

Refer to previous point. Also nothing that has mass (except if it has infinite mass) can travel at the speed of light

Yes, that's what I mean. So the Choi/ITF kick(I will call it that for purposes of clarity) will not hit harder than the later olympic sport TKD kick, if the latters speed is superior, which it will be with alot of practitioners.

However if the formers speed is superior it may and probably will hit harder.

If one technique slows down the acceleration, then it doesn't matter if he puts more body behind it, it will not hit the target harder, than the olympic kick

There is more to hitting the target hard than just speed. F = ma. The decrease in acceleration will decrease the force as will the decrease in mass being accelerated to the target. The relative magnitudes of the decrease of the mass or acceleration will determine which factor will decrease the applied force to the greater extent. You can kick with as much force as you want but if you do not transfer that force to your target sufficiently you will not kick the target hard enough.

Olympic TKD kicks traveling at tremendous acceleration will outperform their kick in power.

See previous point.

I promise you this will be true. The Choi "science team" did not take this into concideration.

They also got the formula for power wrong (they gave the formula for kinetic energy).

Thus superior in all respects in terms of power and speed.

I beg to differ, the turning kicks used by TKD fighters in the Olympics only really put half of their hips behind it. Also when you bring your knee straight in front of you, you have already wasted half of your hip turning movement just getting to the chamber, making it intrinsically less powerful, even if it is faster.

It's important to remember that the speed in the equation is not related to the time it takes to throw the kick, but how fast the object is moving upon impact. When we talk about how fast a kick is it can be deceiving.

Speed is distance divided by time (how long it takes to get from point A to point B), velocity is how fast you are going at any given moment.If two objects are covering the same distance in the same time and one is traveling at a constant velocity and the other is accelerating and decelerating they will both have the same speed even though their velocities may be different at all points in the journey except at least one.

Another thing ; How often do you see this traditional, ultra, move-your-body-behind turning kick in competition. Not even ITF guys, in ITF tournaments ever use it.

Shouldn't this tell us something about it's effectiveness, power non withstanding?

The only thing that tells you is that competition TKD wants a kick that gets to the target faster in order to score points so its effectiveness for that task (not overall effectiveness) is the focus of the kick.If I was going to use a turning kick to defend myself you can bet Benders shiny metal a$$ I would put my entire body behind it.

 

[elder999]

Funny.

On a more serious note though...

For the longest time I've heard Shotokan mentioned as the primary karate influence on taekwondo. But then I was doing some reading recently and I noticed this:

• Choi Hong-Hi, of course, is said to have studied Shotokan
• Likewise Lee Won-Kuk (Chung Do Kwan)
• Likewise Ro Byung-Jick (Song Moo Kwan)
• But Yoon Byung-In (YMCA Kwon Bop Bu) is said to have studied Shūdōkan karate under Kanken Toyoma
• And Yoon Kwe-Byung (Jido Kwan) is said to have studied Shitō-ryū karate.

Do I have all that right?

So my question is this...why do we so often reference Shotokan when discussing the origins of taekwondo, but not Shūdōkan and Shitō-ryū ? In terms of karate influences, does Shotokan get too much of the credit?

So, about me-I studied tae kwon do under Duk Sung Son and Kyokushin under Oyama Shigeru......at the same time. That came about with both teachers consent because I was attending boarding school, and because I had noted that both sets of kata were almost the same. There were some differences, and some kata in each that had no counterpart in the other, but they were mostly the same. At 15, this was a puzzlement, what with both teachers pretty much saying they didn't know why (when, in fact, they likely did), but 40 years later, it is not at all.

The short answer is Anko Itosu

Toyama studied under Anko Itosu before founding Shudokan.

Kenwa Mabuni studied under Anko Itosu before founding Shito Ryu

Funakoshi studied under Anko Itosu before founding Shotokan.

Anko Itosu invented the Pinan kata.


Pinan Shodan from Shito Ryu:

HeianShodan from Shotokan:

Pinan Shodan from Shudokan:

Pinan Shodan from Tang Soo Do:

Pinan Shodan from Chung Do Kwan/Tae Kwon Do/whatever else you wanna call it:

So, what did tae kwon do in the 50's and 60's (and 70's, sometimes 80's, and in some places like Texas today?) look like?

An awful lot like some Korean gentlemen doing Shotokan karate.

(Or, at least, an awful lot like some Korean gentlemen doing Pinan kata....)

 

[chrispillertkd]

Funny.

On a more serious note though...

For the longest time I've heard Shotokan mentioned as the primary karate influence on taekwondo. But then I was doing some reading recently and I noticed this:

• Choi Hong-Hi, of course, is said to have studied Shotokan
• Likewise Lee Won-Kuk (Chung Do Kwan)
• Likewise Ro Byung-Jick (Song Moo Kwan)
• But Yoon Byung-In (YMCA Kwon Bop Bu) is said to have studied Shūdōkan karate under Kanken Toyoma
• And Yoon Kwe-Byung (Jido Kwan) is said to have studied Shitō-ryū karate.

Do I have all that right?

Yoon Kwe-Byung studied both Shito-Ryu and Shudokan. I don't know what rank he possessed in Shito-Ryu but he was ranked very highly in Shudokan.

So my question is this...why do we so often reference Shotokan when discussing the origins of taekwondo, but not Shūdōkan and Shitō-ryū ? In terms of karate influences, does Shotokan get too much of the credit?

Shotokan probably doesn't get too much credit for a few reasons. First of all, Gen. Choi's Oh Do Kwan was most likely the largest Kwan in terms of sheer numbers. The Chung Do Kwan was also very large. The Song Moo Kwan was much smaller but was the first Kwan to be founded (even though it temporarily closed shortly there after).

The Ji Do Kwan also may have had some Shotokan influence since Chun, Sang Sup who founded the Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu - from which the Ji Do Kwan sprung - had studied Shotokan.

That being said I personally would be very interested in seeing a comparison of Shudokan (and maybe Shito-Ryu) to early Taekwon-Do. I mean not only which patterns each used (and Shito-Ryu is noted for having no shortage of kata comared to other styles) but also the body mechanics, stances, and techniques used in each. That would really be the best way to determine what other influences from karate Taekwon-Do had.

And after that we could do a little research on the influence of Chu'an Fa through Yoon, Byung-In

Pax,

Chris

 

[Drose427]

Funny.

On a more serious note though...

For the longest time I've heard Shotokan mentioned as the primary karate influence on taekwondo. But then I was doing some reading recently and I noticed this:

• Choi Hong-Hi, of course, is said to have studied Shotokan
• Likewise Lee Won-Kuk (Chung Do Kwan)
• Likewise Ro Byung-Jick (Song Moo Kwan)
• But Yoon Byung-In (YMCA Kwon Bop Bu) is said to have studied Shūdōkan karate under Kanken Toyoma
• And Yoon Kwe-Byung (Jido Kwan) is said to have studied Shitō-ryū karate.

Do I have all that right?

So my question is this...why do we so often reference Shotokan when discussing the origins of taekwondo, but not Shūdōkan and Shitō-ryū ? In terms of karate influences, does Shotokan get too much of the credit?

While I wouldnt say it specifically looked like koreans practicing shotokan(difference in techs, snap, key points, cadence erc.)

As elder said, it all comes from the same line.

Shuri-te.

We look more like our neighbor shorin school and other shorin schools ive seen than the shotokan schools i have. Although, its similar enough to tell we share an ancestor somewhere.

But again, we all come from the same line so theres gonna be many a similarity.

So while i wouldnt give the credit to Shotokan specifically, the credit does go to that line

Unless you can find kwans with influence from the Naha-Te and Temari-Te lines, which im not saying is impossible, but i havent seen it

 

[Laplace_demon]

If I was going to use a turning kick to defend myself you can bet Benders shiny metal a$$ I would put my entire body behind it.

I would simply cut time by going diagonally (tournament kick) and kick the head. "Keep It Simple, Stupid".

 

[elder999]

Yoon Kwe-Byung studied both Shito-Ryu and Shudokan. I don't know what rank he possessed in Shito-Ryu but he was ranked very highly in Shudokan.
And after that we could do a little research on the influence of Chu'an Fa through Yoon, Byung-In

Pax,

Chris

Yoon's chuan fa probably came from Toyama...though he did spend some years in Manchuria

As elder said, it all comes from the same line.

Shuri-te.

Not just the same line.....the same man, Anko Itosu..

 

[Gnarlie]

I would simply cut time by going diagonally (tournament kick) and kick the head. "Keep It Simple, Stupid".

In tournaments, people stand sideways. In real life, they often do not. A diagonal kick to the head carries with it a high likelihood of meeting a shoulder on its travels to the target.

I would just not kick to the head (at least not while it was at head height) if my life depended on it. I have far higher percentage tactics in the toolbox.

 

[Laplace_demon]

In tournaments, people stand sideways. In real life, they often do not. A diagonal kick to the head carries with it a high likelihood of meeting a shoulder on its travels to the target.

I would just not kick to the head (at least not while it was at head height) if my life depended on it. I have far higher percentage tactics in the toolbox.

Let's for argument sake pretend you have to employ a roundhouse kick. Doesn't really matter if it's against the head.

Do you you think pulling of those old school turning kicks is possible against a moving target? We almost never see it in kickboxing for a reason! These kicks lack applicability.

 

[Gnarlie]

They are totally applicable in the right circumstances. If they don't work, it is because the right set of circumstances has not been found or created.

 

[Laplace_demon]

. Also when you bring your knee straight in front of you, you have already wasted half of your hip turning movement just getting to the chamber, making it intrinsically less powerful, even if it is faster.

.

The KKW dollyo chagi you linked to is not the one being discussed. And that was a demonstration video, taking it step by step. I have seen roundhouse toutorials which recommend a seperate roundhouse kick:

This: Is the WTF/KKW kick I am referring to:

Is this the one Rayners academy discussed?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Here is a KKW instructional with a radically different Dollyo Chagi (roundhouse kick), and this is the more practical one. Which of the two is the one most commonly taught in KKW schools, as the primary roundhouse kick?

At :1:35 - Roundhouse kick

 

[Drose427]

Let's for argument sake pretend you have to employ a roundhouse kick. Doesn't really matter if it's against the head.

Do you you think pulling of those old school turning kicks is possible against a moving target? We almost never see it in kickboxing for a reason! These kicks lack applicability.

The knee raise roundhouse exists in kickboxing....

Old and new,

Youll see it in WKA and K1, its still a part of American Kickboxing gyms all over

 

[Gnarlie]

Laplace, all those kicks in those three videos are the same. Slight modifications to the rechamber motion post kick in one video that shows a drill for developing power through a target, but they are all in principle the same.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Yoon's chuan fa probably came from Toyama...though he did spend some years in Manchuria

Interesting. I have only ever heard that Yoon, Byung-In already knew Chu'an-Fa when he met Toyama and had, in fact, used it in order to defend a fellow Korean who was being harassed by a group of Japanese students. I'd be very interested in any information you have on Toyama teaching Yoon Chu'an-Fa.

Pax,

Chris