How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[Earl Weiss]

I never said anything about 2000 years old. You are the one commiting a straw man. If you disagree that Choi concidered Tae Kwon Do a korean martial art, you really haven't payed attention.

You use an indefinite statement : ""TKD is historicaly a Korean MA" without agreeing on what you mean by that any discussion is futile. Perhaps you would provide a quote or precise source for the premise you now care to debunk. I thought it referred to the 200 year old thing. apparently not.

So what did you refer to?

 

[Earl Weiss]

La Place, I have to concede that you are most likely 100% correct. When the name TKD was formaly adopted on 4-11-1955, if you looked at schools using the monikor during the next, days, weeks, or even months there was no magical transformation.

Some pioneers retained vestiges decades later. When I hosted Nam Tae Hi in the late 1990's he still used a Japanese term or two to teach certain techniques. I don't know that he ever taught the last 4 patterns, and I know Han Cha Kyo did not.

 

[reeskm]

I'm glad I stayed out of this for a while. This thread is getting heated!

TSD MDK is my specialty, so I'll try to help in this area:

I find it difficult to get a good timeline on a lot of these things. As others have pointed out, just because Day 1 something changed names doesn't necessarily mean that on Day 2 everybody is using the new name.

Timelines in KMA are fraught with past mistakes, inconsistencies, and errors. Some deliberate, some not. I 100% agree that the name changes in the art were not done over night. If you look at Rhee and Henry S Cho, you can see a perfect case example. They were still calling their art Tangsoodo up until 1961 in the USA, at which point they decided to change the name of their art to Taekwondo but still teach exactly the same curriculum. Then, to varying degrees, they changed their curriculum as they felt like. You can see this change happening on page 1 in Duk San Son's 1969 book "Korean Karate". It's a written time machine into this change of name.

 

[reeskm]

This is my area!

I find it difficult to get a good timeline on a lot of these things. As others have pointed out, just because Day 1 something changed names doesn't necessarily mean that on Day 2 everybody is using the new name.

Correct. There are tons of factual inconsistencies out there. It's difficult! And the name change happened over a very long period of time. While Choi changed his sign almost overnight, it took him a very long time to convince, pressure, threaten and torture others into coming over to his side.

Case example: Jhoon Rhee and Henry S. Cho continued to call their art Tangsoodo until around 1961, and both had opened their dojangs around 1958 or so in the USA. They did not adopt the name or curriculum of TKD overnight.

I have heard stories that Choi would send you directly to the front in Vietnam if you were a black belt in Tangsoodo and you refused to adopt his new style or curriculum at his military bases. He had the power of life and death over new recruits in his army bases that he controlled.

1958 - Chuck Norris is learning martial arts while based in South Korea

So my understanding is that Chuck Norris would have been studying martial arts in South Korea during a time where the name was very much still in flux.

This is 100% correct. Chuck Norris' martial arts history is well known. He tells it himself. He started in Korean Yudo and when he suffered a very bad injury he switched to Moodukkwan Tangsoodo at Osan AFB.

To give you a little known insight: Osan AFB was in a sense, an extension of the United States of America and did not have to comply with any Korean government regulations. US veterans could possibly confirm or elaborate?

Anyway, inadvertently Norris walked straight into this martial arts political minefield. The only reason the MooDukKwan was able to continue teaching Tangsoodo at Osan with complete freedom was because they were immune to Choi's influence and were able to survive the 1961 decree by President Park forcing all tangsoodo teachers to unify, or else.

Hwang Kee was later tortured and ordered to stop teaching by the government. He had to fight in court for the right to teach his martial art in South Korea. This is likely one of the major reasons the best of the best korean masters moved to the USA and Canada after 1961.

 

[Laplace_demon]

La Place, I have to concede that you are most likely 100% correct. When the name TKD was formaly adopted on 4-11-1955, if you looked at schools using the monikor during the next, days, weeks, or even months there was no magical transformation.

Some pioneers retained vestiges decades later. When I hosted Nam Tae Hi in the late 1990's he still used a Japanese term or two to teach certain techniques. I don't know that he ever taught the last 4 patterns, and I know Han Cha Kyo did not.

Is it so difficult writing my username correctly? One can't help but wonder. I don't know if you are being sarcastic, but yes, the TKD name unification clearly took more than a few years.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Reading He Young Kim's recent history book. He recounts name adoption in 1955 but Korean TSD Assoc does not unify TSD and MDK and change name to Koreadn TKD assoc until 1959 under General Choi but this only lasts a year under his leadership and they change back until he returns in 1963 and he again pursues the TKD unified monikrer, so this can explain why Chuck Norris trained in TSD although in early books Norris refers to TSD in at least one later book he calls it TKD.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Is it so difficult writing my username correctly? .

OOPS Sorry , but considering:

>>#211

Laplace_demon
“Because the hole point of...”<<

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

 

[oftheherd1]

...

This is 100% correct. Chuck Norris' martial arts history is well known. He tells it himself. He started in Korean Yudo and when he suffered a very bad injury he switched to Moodukkwan Tangsoodo at Osan AFB.

I had long heard he stated the art he studied in Korea was TangSooDo. Never heard it called MDK-TSD, but then I never studied the history of all the arts either. I know I studied Moo Duk Kwan briefly about 1965 or 66, and is contained elements unlike what Jhoon Goo Rhee was teaching. I think the forms were different as well, but I could be wrong. That was a long time ago.

To give you a little known insight: Osan AFB was in a sense, an extension of the United States of America and did not have to comply with any Korean government regulations. US veterans could possibly confirm or elaborate?

It may indeed be a known insight for those who were never in the military in the far east in general, nor in Korea in particular. However, the US always negotiated (or demanded) a favorable Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) for all its troops. It was a treaty signed by both governments. The Korean police and courts would have had no jurisdiction on a military installation concerning US Forces. Off a military installation it was a little different. They had a certain amount of time to assert the right to prosecute a military person, and could then do so. It was a very uncommon practice on their part. Anyone not covered by the SOFA might be untouchable while on the base, but had to leave sometime. Civilians were seldom covered, nor were they usually given quarters or rations on a military installation. Koreans who were hired to work on the base certainly would have lived off the installation and been subject to Korean law on or off the installation, except that they could not have been arrested on the installation without consent of the local JAG, accompanied by the local Provost Marshal (or their representatives).

Anyway, inadvertently Norris walked straight into this martial arts political minefield. The only reason the MooDukKwan was able to continue teaching Tangsoodo at Osan with complete freedom was because they were immune to Choi's influence and were able to survive the 1961 decree by President Park forcing all tangsoodo teachers to unify, or else.

Sounds good, but again, neither Koreans nor Americans would have been living on an installation. As soon as they walked out the gate they were fair game for any unfriendly Korean constabulary, civilian or military. So would their families.

Hwang Kee was later tortured and ordered to stop teaching by the government. He had to fight in court for the right to teach his martial art in South Korea. This is likely one of the major reasons the best of the best korean masters moved to the USA and Canada after 1961.

I wasn't there to be able to say it did or didn't happen, but open opposition to President Pak was surely dangerous to anyone, no less the courts. That eased as time went by, and some dissent was tolerated, at least by the time I was first there in 1974; one of our Korean National Criminal Investigators made no secret of the fact he did not like President Pak nor his government.

 

[Transk53]

This thread still going. Wow.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy .The Differences Between Karate`s "Roundhouse Kick" & Taekwon-do`s "Turning Kick"!

This interesting article shed some light on the matter of Karate vs Taekwon-Do roundhouse kicks. I don't accept however that the later modified roundouse kick by the General Choi team of ITF, actually became universal for ITF, even. My instructor does not throw his roundhouses as in the picture from Lenny Ludlam, although some of his IV dan students do. I have also seen KKW guys throw kicks like Chois ITF proponents, as well as Tang Soo Do adherents.

 

[Drose427]

Rayners Lane Taekwon-do Academy .The Differences Between Karate`s "Roundhouse Kick" & Taekwon-do`s "Turning Kick"!

This interesting article shed some light on the matter of Karate vs Taekwon-Do roundhouse kicks. I don't accept however that the later modified roundouse kick by the General Choi team of ITF, actually became universal for ITF, even. My instructor does not throw his roundhouses as in the picture from Lenny Ludlam, although some of his IV dan students do. I have also seen KKW guys throw kicks like Chois ITF proponents, as well as Tang Soo Do adherents.

We use the High knee chamber, but we've changed little from how Hwang Kee taught my KJN the tech

I will say that #4 really has nothing to do with style so it gives me a bad feeling about the article.

Ive never seen a TKD, Karate, Boxing, MT, or even joe can do, style not teach to drive or "snap"(as one of our instrcutors explains) through a target.

Outside of controlled sparring that is

 

[Gnarlie]

Proficient kickers are generally familiar with several variants of each type of kick, regardless of their organisation - I have practiced all of these at various points! I find that how each individual approaches this kick is largely determined by what their flexibility allows them to get away with.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Proficient kickers are generally familiar with several variants of each type of kick, regardless of their organisation - I have practiced all of these at various points! I find that how each individual approaches this kick is largely determined by what their flexibility allows them to get away with.

It's missleading when I see Tang Soo Do practitioners, who have no relation to the General Choi lineage, practise his teams supposed "scientific" roundhouse kick. I do accept that Karateka practitioners don't shift their body as much in the turning kick. However, this downside in power can be compensated by less telegraphing and (possibly) higher speed. Also speed increases mass, so a TKD/TSD turning kick is not neccesarily more powerful, if the practitioners can't get enough acceleration/speed. Some IV dan grades hit's the turning kick" excellently, but with no speed. They would actually hit less hard then the newer version, which is supposedly less powerful.

 

[Drose427]

It's missleading when I see Tang Soo Do practitioners, who have no relation to the General Choi lineage, practise his teams supposed "scientific" roundhouse kick. I do accept that Karateka practitioners don't shift their body as much in the turning kick. However, this downside in power can be compensated by less telegraphing and (possibly) higher speed. Also speed increases mass, so a TKD/TSD turning kick is not neccesarily more powerful, if the practitioners can't get enough acceleration/speed. Some IV dan grades hit's the turning kick" excellently, but with no speed. They would actually hit less hard then the newer version, which is supposedly less powerful.

Its important to note that the differences between the two techs are prety minor, the big one being emphasis on waist with ball pivot vs emphasis on pivot with some waist.

Striking areas, leaning, etc vary more the person that the style and shouldnt really be attributed to the latter

 

[Gnarlie]

It's missleading when I see Tang Soo Do practitioners, who have no relation to the General Choi lineage, practise his teams supposed "scientific" roundhouse kick. I do accept that Karateka practitioners don't shift their body as much in the turning kick. However, this downside in power can be compensated by less telegraphing and (possibly) higher speed. Also speed increases mass, so a TKD/TSD turning kick is not neccesarily more powerful, if the practitioners can't get enough acceleration/speed. Some IV dan grades hit's the turning kick" excellently, but with no speed. They would actually hit less hard then the newer version, which is supposedly less powerful.

I think it comes down to what suits the individual best, but this

speed increases mass

Is not true. Is that what you meant to say?

 

[Laplace_demon]

I think it comes down to what suits the individual best, but this

speed increases mass

Is not true. Is that what you meant to say?

But things hits you harder depending on how fast you are moving towards it, or the other way around. Speed is related to impact. I haven't read physics, but even at the speed of light the mass is apparently constant.

 

[Gnarlie]

I think you mean Force = mass x acceleration. The acceleration in the case of a kick is actually a deceleration as it hits the target. The faster it is travelling when it meets the target, the greater the acceleration as the kick slows to zero.

Speed and mass applied to a kick are both within the control of the kicker, but speed is somewhat easier to add than mass, especially beyond a certain percentage of body mass.

 

[Drose427]

But things hits you harder depending on how fast you are moving towards it, or the other way around. Speed is related to impact. I haven't read physics, but even at the speed of light the mass is apparently constant.

While phsycially speaking you are correct, the equation is something like:

Force = mass x velocity^2,

Making speed an important factor

You mean speed increases FORCE,

Not speed increases MASS.

Mass is size after all, so to speak,

 

[elder999]

How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

Like a lot of Korean gentlemen doing Shotokan karate.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I think you mean Force = mass x acceleration. The acceleration in the case of a kick is actually a deceleration as it hits the target. The faster it is travelling when it meets the target, the greater the acceleration as the kick slows to zero.

Speed and mass applied to a kick are both within the control of the kicker, but speed is somewhat easier to add than mass, especially beyond a certain percentage of body mass.

Yes, that's what I mean. So the Choi/ITF kick(I will call it that for purposes of clarity) will not hit harder than the later olympic sport TKD kick, if the latters speed is superior, which it will be with alot of practitioners.