Laplace_demon
Black Belt
TKDs technical independence from its Okinawa Karate roots cannot be sustained by the virtue of Chois 24 forms.
How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?
- Thread starter Laplace_demon
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Laplace_demon
Black Belt
Another point of interest - Chuck Norris learned Tang Soo Do (Karate forms) in the South Korean base, not Tae Kwon Do, because he says it wasn't yet called that. I am surprised TSD was by 1958 still bigger than TKD. Wasn't the official martal art korean soliders trained in Tae Kwon Do, and not Tang Soo Do or did that come later?
andyjeffries
Senior Master
There's nothing to say that Taekwondo wasn't a more popular term than Tangsoodo, it's just at that time, in that dojang they used Tangsoodo. If I make up a style called Andyjeffriesdo and have some future-to-be-famous person train in it, later rename it back to Taekwondo, it doesn't mean that at that time Andyjeffriesdo was bigger than Taekwondo.
Again, he said has always said that he trained on the base, not necessarily that he did the official martial arts instruction that the Korean soldiers were getting. It could well be that he trained at a dojang that happened to be on the base (and a lot of soldiers may have done it, but it wasn't the official martial art that they were made to do as part of their official training).
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
AFAIAC this is another straw man premise. I don't know where you find the statement that "TKD is historicaly a Korean MA" Most now agree the 2000 year old thing is BS. The Shorin and Shorei roots are explicitly set out in General Choi's book.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
There was no magical instant overnight transformation. Most everyone was practicing TSD when the name was adopted in 1955. Depending on your perspective if you practiced an MA before 1955 it could not have been TKD. So, after adoption of the name in 1955 and the changing of the sign at the Oh Do Kwan it's not like there was a magical transformation to a new system, That is surprising because?
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Do you feel the same about "Technical independance" (whatever that means ) of Shotokan and the Shorin and Shorei systems?
How about the throws and groundwork of Kodokan Judo and those of the Ju Jitsu Ryus that preceeded it?
If not, why not?
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
It also doesn't mean that when the sign was changed at the ODK in April of 1955 every sign at every base gym and name instantly changed. Looking at history they the lens of modern travel and communication will always lead to a lot of "Why" questions.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Why didn't they just put the notice on Facebook, then everyone would have known faster and could have changed over immediately...
;-)
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
I find it difficult to get a good timeline on a lot of these things. As others have pointed out, just because Day 1 something changed names doesn't necessarily mean that on Day 2 everybody is using the new name. To address this question specifically, my understanding is this:
1952 - General Choi has his military team demonstrate martial arts to President Syngman Rhee; Rhee calls the martial art Taeykyon, a name that Choi prefers not to use
1955 - Many of the leaders of the Nine Kwans start leaning toward use of the name Tae Soo Do, during their early meetings about possible unification
1957 - General Choi begins lobbying for use of the name Tae Kwon Do
1958 - Chuck Norris is learning martial arts while based in South Korea
1960 - General Choi sends the Original Masters on their worldwide tour, where the name Tae Kwon Do is used for the tour
So my understanding is that Chuck Norris would have been studying martial arts in South Korea during a time where the name was very much still in flux.
Here's a timeline, but I'm not sure it's entirely accurate: Timeline of Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki . One of these days I should take a real crack at solidifying some of those dates.
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
I agree of course that the 2000 year old thing is simply not true, but I'm still sympathetic to the people who like to make this claim. As I mentioned a while back in another thread: Imagine if Christmas were outlawed for 35 years (especially before the Internet age), and then finally we were allowed to resume celebrating Christmas...except, nobody has sung Christmas songs or even printed the sheet music for 35 years; not only has nobody decorated any Christmas trees for 35 years, but nobody has even operated any Christmas tree farms for 35 years; not only has nobody hung ornaments, but all the ornament factories have been closed for 35 years -- how would we reconstitute Christmas? When we finally resumed celebrating Christmas, would it even still be recognizable as traditional Christmas? Maybe not, but for nostalgia's sake I suspect we'd like to still think there was some thread connecting us to the old Christmas traditions.
So even though it's BS, I think it's an understandable BS. After the atrocities of the occupation by Imperial Japan, I'm willing to forgive a little wishful thinking. That having been said...yah, it's just not true.
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
Because the hole point of name unification was that it would actually be followed. Why else lobby and club for the change. Tang Soo Do incorporates direct chinese kung fu elements which no Tae Kwon Do(at least under General Chois philosophy) followed. Perhaps training method and emphasis also shifted with the name Tae Kwon Do. But at any rate, I ask again; What's the point of unification, if nobody abides by it?
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Laplace_demon
Black Belt
I never said anything about 2000 years old. You are the one commiting a straw man. If you disagree that Choi concidered Tae Kwon Do a korean martial art, you really haven't payed attention.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
Unification is a process. Globally, it's still an ongoing process. In Korea, Taekwondo is pretty well unified.
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
I am talking about the late 50s, not today. The goal is achieved nowdays with TKD.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
Are you talking about the term taekwondo or the forms and technical aspects of the art?
Laplace_demon
Black Belt
The term. I am quite sure though chucks training would have differed if it had been named TKD instead. The reasons mentioned above
My question is as follows: Was there a difference entering a taekwondo school pre ITF, outside of patterns and sparring for competition? Were there still an emphasis on kicking over striking? They still wore the Karate Gi in Taekwondo back then, and used shotokan patterns from what I understand
Were there any new fundamental techniques introduced in General Chois ITF, (outside of self defence techniques derived from Judo/jujitsu?)
Were there any new fundamental techniques introduced in General Chois ITF, (outside of self defence techniques derived from Judo/jujitsu?)
I haven't read the whole tread yet, but in regards to OP's questions in the first post, and his distinction of TaeKwonDo pre and post ITF, I feel that an clarification is on order.
The Korean TaeKwonDo Association(formed in 1959) predates the ITF(formed in 1966), and was the first TaeKwonDo organization. General Choi's Oh Do Kwan was only one of five original kwans forming this organization. It was the remaining kwans of this organization which later created the Kukkiwon(1972) and WTF, and ITF was formed only when General Choi's Oh Do Kwan left the KTA for political reasons in 1966.
As the KTA(which is still aligned with Kukkiwon/WTF today) was formed on the basis of a lot of different kwans with different backgrounds, they did not have any kind of standard way of doing things during this time and neither did all the different schools of the KTA use the same forms, even though General Choi tried hard to have the other schools of the KTA adopt the forms he created.
The first real and collaborative attempt at standardization of forms in the KTA by the original kwans didn't happen until the Palgwe poomsae were created in 1965-1968 (which were later replaced by the Taegeuk forms in 1971/1972), but even today, there are still schools aligned with Kukkiwon/WTF which trains both the Palgwe forms and the even earlier (mostly) karate-derived hyungs such as the Pyung Ahn set(corresponds to the Pinan/Heian karate kata), Pal-sek (Bassai/Passai), Chul-Gi(Neihanchi), etc.
Edit: Wrongly included the Chung Do Kwan in the ITF/KTA split.
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andyjeffries
Senior Master
Are you sure? The current kwanjangnim of Chungdokwan is GM Uhm Woon Kyu was appointed in 1959, he has been active throughout the decades in KTA/Kukkiwon business, e.g. in 1971 he was a Vice-President of the KTA Executive Committee, in 1978 he was the official signatory on behalf on Chungdokwan to the Kwan Unification Proclamation, in 2004 he became President of the Kukkiwon.
So, what made you think that Chungdokwan was ever part of the ITF? I can post a link to the translation of the Modern History of Taekwondo book that has the above details in it (or the ISBN to the original book in Korean if it helps)
I checked my sources, and you are right. I'm probably confused because of Chois earlier connection with Chung Do Kwan, and some representatives from it or a similar named kwan who chose to follow Gen. Choi when he formed the ITF. In either case, It's been a while since I read about this, and I stand corrected. Thanks. 
edit: I have edited my post above on the basis of your correction.
edit: I have edited my post above on the basis of your correction.
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Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Well, I ask if "Nobody abides by it" then how is it that in all likelyhood (with the exception perhaps of people in China) The 2 largest systems practiced in the world Kukki and Chang Hon use the name "TKD".
Now, again the need for a unified system that could be taught and trained on a large scale, internationaly was seen by Funakoshi, Kano, Ueshiba and others. beofre it was done by General Choi. The point is that a person trained in a system can step on the floor of a Do Jang anywhere in the world and fit right in. Instructors could be and were dispatched throughout the world to teach a system, and if needed could easily be replaced by another instructor of the system without disturbing continuity for the system.
