How appliable is aikido for self-defense?

[Tony Dismukes]

Ah, so that would refer to the majority of what happens in the Olympic Judo matches?

Yep. At that level, if a competitor wins the fight for superior grips, there is an excellent chance that he or she will complete a throw in the next moment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yep. At that level, if a competitor wins the fight for superior grips, there is an excellent chance that he or she will complete a throw in the next moment.

This is what our "randori" (the term I use to refer to resistive sparring that is primarily grappling) often ends up looking like. Ueshiba's Aikido tends to have a more strict focus on the "aiki" of the art, but there's no reason this type of practice can't be used within that structure.

 

[Flying Crane]

Nobody has an issue with the people who train with intensity and realism.

Ok, then how, exactly, did you translate my earlier comment about ramping up the training, into throwing an unrealistic punch so the partner can just move as fast as he can?

Did you just fundamentally misunderstand what I had said?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ok, then how, exactly, did you translate my earlier comment about ramping up the training, into throwing an unrealistic punch so the partner can just move as fast as he can?

Did you just fundamentally misunderstand what I had said?

What he was referring to is something that I have seen way too often in a variety of systems. The demonstrator will have his uke attack extra hard and fast in order to impress, as if that somehow fixed the fact that the attack being defended against was fundamentally incompetent.

 

[Flying Crane]

What he was referring to is something that I have seen way too often in a variety of systems. The demonstrator will have his uke attack extra hard and fast in order to impress, as if that somehow fixed the fact that the attack being defended against was fundamentally incompetent.

I understand that is what he is referring to. I am asking him why he thinks that is what I was suggesting.

 

[Hanzou]

The training method is a feature of the school, perhaps of a sub-group of the art, but not necessarily of the art, itself. There are ways I teach and exercises I use that are not the same as those of my primary instructor, and some of his methods are not the same as those of the instructors within his association.

My point is that an instructor could bring more realistic, modern attacks to Ueshiba's Aikido than I have seen in the schools I visited, without losing the nature of the art. It would look different, to be sure, because the nature of the attack affects the response. It would still be Ueshiba's Aikido, though.

Wouldn't changing the nature of the attack change the nature of the response? If for example you go from exaggerated sword and spear style attacks to standardized kicks, punches, and grappling, wouldn't that alter the response from the Aikidoka? Wouldn't that also force a large amount of new techniques to be brought into the Aikido curriculum?

Considering that there are people out there who don't view competitive Aikido as "true Aikido", how would something like that be still considered true to the vision of the founder?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What do you mean by "grip fight" training?

- Prevent your opponent from getting a grip on you.
- Try to get a grip on your opponent.
- Break your opponent's grip.
- Try to obtain dominate position.
- ...

 

[drop bear]

Ok, then how, exactly, did you translate my earlier comment about ramping up the training, into throwing an unrealistic punch so the partner can just move as fast as he can?

Did you just fundamentally misunderstand what I had said?

That is pretty much what you see when you see akido. lots of unrealistic stuff. For some reason the bulk of the realistic training never makes it to you tube.

I have found a bit of actual live Akido. But it is really hard. I have never seen a knock down drag out sparring match between Akido and anybody.

So ramping up training would be ramping up what is. Not turning it into fundamentally something else.

 

[Flying Crane]

That is pretty much what you see when you see akido. lots of unrealistic stuff. For some reason the bulk of the realistic training never makes it to you tube.

I have found a bit of actual live Akido. But it is really hard. I have never seen a knock down drag out sparring match between Akido and anybody.

So ramping up training would be ramping up what is. Not turning it fundamentally something else.

Your whole premise is wrong. Ramping up means whatever the individual intends it to mean. Not what you choose to interpret based on what you see on YouTube.

I'm the one who said ramp it up. I'm telling you what I mean by that.

 

[drop bear]

Your whole premise is wrong. Ramping up means whatever the individual intends it to mean. Not what you choose to interpret based on what you see on YouTube.

I'm the one who said ramp it up. I'm telling you what I mean by that.

So if you ramped up Akido to an emphasis on live resisted training and high percentage techniques you would have a system that would be more suited to going out there and using it on people who dont want it used on them.

well yeah. That would work.

 

[Flying Crane]

So if you ramped up Akido to an emphasis on live resisted training and high percentage techniques you would have a system that would be more suited to going out there and using it on people who dont want it used on them.

well yeah. That would work.

All I'm saying is, if you aren't impressed with something you see on YouTube, well that's not a shocker. I find little on YouTube to impress me as well, regardless of the system, especially the one in which I train.

But there is a whole lot more going on that never gets filmed and never gets put on YouTube for people like you and I to gawk at. So don't think YouTube establishes the standard for anything. At most, it is an example of what one guy or one group does. Perhaps only on that day, at that moment, for some specific purpose that you and I, the gawking audience, is not privy to.

I see a lot of these discussions that hold up YouTube examples as a reason for derision. Any discussion that uses YouTube as a presumed standard example has a very flimsy premise from the get-go.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What he was referring to is something that I have seen way too often in a variety of systems. The demonstrator will have his uke attack extra hard and fast in order to impress, as if that somehow fixed the fact that the attack being defended against was fundamentally incompetent.

This. If I deliver an over-telegraphed attack (think "zombie punch") to Tony, it doesn't really get any better just because I come at him full "World War Z" speed, but still acting like a zombie in Shawn of the Dead.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wouldn't changing the nature of the attack change the nature of the response? If for example you go from exaggerated sword and spear style attacks to standardized kicks, punches, and grappling, wouldn't that alter the response from the Aikidoka? Wouldn't that also force a large amount of new techniques to be brought into the Aikido curriculum?

Considering that there are people out there who don't view competitive Aikido as "true Aikido", how would something like that be still considered true to the vision of the founder?

It needn't change _what_ techinques they use, but it will certainly change _how_ they use them. I often teach two wholly different versions of a technique. The first is the true "aiki" version, which requires the feel for that "void" I teach about. The second version (which doesn't always show up right away) is what I refer to as the "Judo" version (think the fast, but highly leveraged throws you see in Judo competitions). Both are the same technique, but each emphasizes different principles of the art, and sometimes are activated by different principles. Both are valid within NGA, and many of them would be valid within Ueshiba's Aikido, as well.

 

[drop bear]

All I'm saying is, if you aren't impressed with something you see on YouTube, well that's not a shocker. I find little on YouTube to impress me as well, regardless of the system, especially the one in which I train.

But there is a whole lot more going on that never gets filmed and never gets put on YouTube for people like you and I to gawk at. So don't think YouTube establishes the standard for anything. At most, it is an example of what one guy or one group does. Perhaps only on that day, at that moment, for some specific purpose that you and I, the gawking audience, is not privy to.

I see a lot of these discussions that hold up YouTube examples as a reason for derision. Any discussion that uses YouTube as a presumed standard example has a very flimsy premise from the get-go.

See i would have said any discussion that uses pub war stories was an even more flimsy premise.

So people who say one thing but then can't show that thing kind of loose credibility.

I am certainly not convinced that just because there is no evidence means i have to take someones word that there is this really effective stuff. I have been around to long for that. Most people have.

 

[Flying Crane]

See i would have said any discussion that uses pub war stories was an even more flimsy premise.

So people who say one thing but then can't show that thing kind of loose credibility.

I am certainly not convinced that just because there is no evidence means i have to take someones word that there is this really effective stuff. I have been around to long for that. Most people have.

Pub war stories? What are you going on about?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Pub war stories? What are you going on about?

I suspect he's referring to the stories one tells over a pint: "Yeah, I remember this one time...."

 

[Flying Crane]

I suspect he's referring to the stories one tells over a pint: "Yeah, I remember this one time...."

Ah right. So...if it isn't on YouTube, then it's just tall tales in a pub.

Is this some kind of nihilism? "I believe in NOTHING Lebowski, NOTHING!!"

Drop bear must live an exciting life, as I am sure every day he encounters things that he hasnt first seen on YouTube and so did not believe in. A new adventure lurks around every corner!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ah right. So...if it isn't on YouTube, then it's just tall tales in a pub.

Is this some kind of nihilism? "I believe in NOTHING Lebowski, NOTHING!!"

Drop bear must live an exciting life, as I am sure every day he encounters things that he hasnt first seen on YouTube and so did not believe in. A new adventure lurks around every corner!

I think his point was more that the stories that survive to be told over a pint are often A) unusual circumstances, and B) not quite as described. He and I have a disagreement over the value of individual experiences versus what can be tested in the gym, but there's a valid point to be made about using pub war stories cautiously.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think his point was more that the stories that survive to be told over a pint are often A) unusual circumstances, and B) not quite as described. He and I have a disagreement over the value of individual experiences versus what can be tested in the gym, but there's a valid point to be made about using pub war stories cautiously.

Who here is using pub war stories?

The guy thinks that if he can't find it on YouTube, then it doesnt exist. Does that sound reasonable to you?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Who here is using pub war stories?

The guy thinks that if he can't find it on YouTube, then it doesnt exist. Does that sound reasonable to you?

I can find videos of Big Foot, Aliens, and the Lochness monster on YouTube....so then they must be true