Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Xue, I can't find you on YouTube. I don't believe you exist!
I believe in nothing Lebowski...
How appliable is aikido for self-defense?
- Thread starter kehcorpz
- Start date
I believe in nothing Lebowski...
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist."
--The Usual Suspects
pgsmith
Master of Arts
But therein lies the issue. Why do you care? You are obviously not going to be learning Aikido, so why do you care if it is effective or not? Those that are currently practicing Aikido don't really care if you believe them, as you have no impact on their training. Therefore, all I see is you arguing in the aikido forum for someone to prove to you that it's effective. Seems a bit silly to me.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Hanzou
Grandmaster
It goes quite a bit beyond that actually. When the only "proof" of Aikido's effectiveness comes from old wive's tales, and when advanced practitioners of the art say it's not effective for self defense, we have an art whose effectiveness is justifiably suspect.
Is that a problem? If the art is being advertised as a self defense style, then it certainly is a problem.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
What old wives tales are you referring to? I've witnessed classes that were plenty convincing for me.
Take the blinders off son. It's time for you to admit that there is plenty that you don't know. The rest of us can already see that about you. It's only you who carries on with the farce.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Well everything looks convincing within the confines of a dojo. Look at Dillman's no-touch knockout stuff for further evidence of that. Aikido itself has its own brand of no-touch nonsense which also appears within the confines of a dojo or demonstration.
Again, the majority of my experience with Aikido exists outside of an Aikido dojo, and it mirrors Roy Dean and other people's perception of the art.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
while I Have no doubt this is what you believe, I doubt think it's quite correct.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Why does anyone care about any of it?
They don't have to be effective. Doesn't phase me. But that is the discussion.
So i am discussing.
And there are generally pretty generic reasons why any martial isn't effective.
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Ok. Sorry but i dont believe half the stuff told to me by martial artists. It is in their intrests to lie or exaggerate.
This is because actual evidence has less weight than what some guy said. And evidence is harder to find and generally less interesting than stuff people make up. So you sort of cant compete.
And that is because people like yourself want to argue in favor of stories.
You are not doing yourself any favors. Because you just fall into my belief vs your belief. Opposing dogmas never solve anything.
This is why people like myself refer to YouTube because it cuts out all the dogma. You can see something happen.
Then you can start to see a trend of what is practical and what isn't. Because not everything that seems intuitive actually works. Some stuff that you would swear doesn't work does. You need to keep an open mind.
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Drop, Katie segal's Hot! I bet ya fifty bucks Randy would Totally let her pull guard and reverse to a mount then ground and pound him. C'mon, that's a given. Remember the stretch pants?
Actually it's in my interest to have people think I am far less good than I am, I don't want people knowing the extent of any skills I have.
You Tube would only prove something if everyone posted up rather than only those who are narcissists. Even then the camera work would all have to be done by the same people so give a level playing field. Most people really really cannot be bothered posting up videos of themselves doing stuff and why should they?
Hanzou
Grandmaster
No one is posting videos of themselves. What usually happens is that a confrontation occurs and a third party shoots the video.
There are examples of Aikido out there. The problem is that none of the cross-fighting material out there is very good. We have videos of Aikidokas coming up with hilarious counters to grappling holds, we have videos of Aikidoka getting manhandled by wrestlers and Judoka, we have vids of O'Sensei throwing people without touching them, and we have vids of Steven Seagal goofing around with MMA fighters who largely view him as a joke.
At this point we should be seeing some examples of effective Aikido somewhere.
I can give you an old wives tale about how Aikido work for me in defence of my self and in defence of someone else.
And but I am not sure how old I have to be to be old wife? Maybe I am not old enough? And actually now I think of it, I am not nobodys wife. Hmm.. so I think that rule me out completely..
I can give you opinion as someone who have practiced Aikido for a long enough while and but I think the criteria that you (and others who espouse similar beliefs) apply to what is "proof of effectiveness" are perhaps skewed towards your way or practice or at the very least set a slanted bar at a level which other MA cannot evenly pass.
I mean maybe you can say what proof do you want that you would count as sufficient proof? Ultimately if you have a faith-based belief that Aikido is ineffective in SD then it is unlikely that any anecdote I can provide can usurp the sovereignty of that faith you already hold as your truth. Likewise I cannot prove to you that your own art is ineffective in SD because it is a faith-based belief you trust in and cannot be moved. One person find it difficult to convince another out of their faith. You cannot convince me that my Aikido is ineffective. Because MY Aikido it has been effective FOR ME. Is simple yes?
Maybe you can answer me another question because all of this effectiveness stuff is lot of something the profanity filter will not allow.. And because some times you speak objectively.. sometimes mind!
Say to me why is there disproportionately more haters for Aikido than say.. well say anything at all even boiled spinach and nobody likes boiled spinach.. well except Popeye and he was more of a stand-up fighter.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
You can prove something exists with evidence. That's where a video can be helpful. I can find very good Bjj on YouTube.
doesn't work quite the same the other direction. Without demonstrable evidence, it Becomes a point of faith. Can't prove something doesn't exist, but it certainly creates a situation where a perspective can seem a little dogmatic, and invites the references to religion.
doesn't work quite the same the other direction. Without demonstrable evidence, it Becomes a point of faith. Can't prove something doesn't exist, but it certainly creates a situation where a perspective can seem a little dogmatic, and invites the references to religion.
Steve, there is good Aikido training on youtube. Just not resistance sparring which is what you are looking for.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I can give you an old wives tale about how Aikido work for me in defence of my self and in defence of someone else.
And but I am not sure how old I have to be to be old wife? Maybe I am not old enough? And actually now I think of it, I am not nobodys wife. Hmm.. so I think that rule me out completely..
I can give you opinion as someone who have practiced Aikido for a long enough while and but I think the criteria that you (and others who espouse similar beliefs) apply to what is "proof of effectiveness" are perhaps skewed towards your way or practice or at the very least set a slanted bar at a level which other MA cannot evenly pass.
I mean maybe you can say what proof do you want that you would count as sufficient proof? Ultimately if you have a faith-based belief that Aikido is ineffective in SD then it is unlikely that any anecdote I can provide can usurp the sovereignty of that faith you already hold as your truth. Likewise I cannot prove to you that your own art is ineffective in SD because it is a faith-based belief you trust in and cannot be moved. One person find it difficult to convince another out of their faith. You cannot convince me that my Aikido is ineffective. Because MY Aikido it has been effective FOR ME. Is simple yes?
Maybe you can answer me another question because all of this effectiveness stuff is lot of something the profanity filter will not allow.. And because some times you speak objectively.. sometimes mind!
A few things:
1. Aikido tends to get picked on because it's in the same vein as Judo and Bjj, in that it is a modern grappling system that derived from older Japanese martial arts.
2. There's plenty of video evidence to show that Bjj works if properly applied. There are many sport and self defense examples. The same goes for Judo and many other MAs. Aikido, not so much.
3. My personal belief of Aikido's effectiveness comes from sparring and talking with former Aikidoka. It certainly isn't faith based.
4. I DO find some aspects of Aikido intriguing and useful, like the wrist locks and the break falling for example. I rather like Roy Dean's approach of combing Aikido with proper grappling, though I don't see much benefit behind it.
The issue with looking for similar video on YouTube for any aiki art, is that the effectiveness of the aiki-based movements comes at times when there isn't resistance. If there's resistance, we move to where there isn't any, and that's where the "aiki" shows up. So, if you saw me doing defensive work and I stuck to purely aiki-based technique, then it would look odd to you. I'd get someone off-balance, and move around "too much" (moving from one point where there was no "aiki" to another point where there was an opportunity for it). Even with a partner completely committing to the attack in a realistic manner, it will always look suspect.
The only time it doesn't, is if I tell my partner to use what he knows to keep me away from all the aiki opportunities. If she does that, then I feel that type of resistance and respond with non-aiki technique (strikes, Judo-style throws, etc. - all within the purview of any aiki-jujutsu based art). Problem is, it no longer looks like "aikido", because I've moved away from the aiki techniques. Then, it might as well be Jujutsu in that video. Many folks will claim that this is a better test of aikido arts, but it's actually not a realistic sort of resistance. For most techniques, I can remove the aiki opportunities by stepping with the right foot at the right time, and I can often stay one step ahead of the other person, blocking all the "aiki". But that takes a lot of knowledge, and a comprehension of those aiki opportunities, something extraordinarily unlikely to be found in an attacker.
So, I can either practice realistic resistance, giving me access to aiki and producing a video that often looks unrealistic. Or I can practice unrealistic resistance that makes me work more on the other areas of my art, and get a video that looks more realistic. We train both ways, but if you ask me for a video of aikido, well, I'd want you to see the "aiki" part.
The issue with trying to find sport evidence is largely that if you took someone who understood their Aikido well, and who had trained with resistance, they won't often go to the purely "aikI" techniques with most trained fighters, because that's the hard part to get to (and working hard to get to it is contrary to the concept of "aiki"). So, if they understand the techniques in depth, they're more likely to look like Jujutsu much of the time, so you'd not see something that "looks like" Aikido. Add to that the fact that, in most of Ueshiba's Aikido, there are fairly advanced breakfalls to make it easier to take a large number of falls (and which, frankly, make the technique look all the more impressive but are mostly done to make it easier on the receiver)...well, you won't see those same falls from someone who's actually trying NOT to be thrown (as in a competition). So, again, it won't look like Aikido. The reality will almost never look like the practice.
