I didn't know Judge Roy Dean was a martial artist. Oh wait...
How appliable is aikido for self-defense?
- Thread starter kehcorpz
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Not the same thing.
That is actually a trap. That a lot of clubs fall for.
So i throw an unrealistic punch exactly where and when you want it and then collapse at the right time.
And then to ramp it up i throw really fast. And you knock me down really fast.
Which doesn't really work.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
yup, back about 20 years ago we had a group of people from multiple styles that meant and spared. Too a hell of a beating from a Southern mantis guy who was also an ex-marine. There was also an American Kempo guy that was damn god too. Got slammed to the floor by an Aikidoka and had a real hard time with a Judo guy. It was a great group and a hell of a training experince
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I would say yes. He seems to be a thoughtful guy who has been around for a long time, and who has a unique approach to BJJ. I don't know where he stands within the aikido community, but I would says hat he should absolutely be taken seriously by the martial arts community at large.
Roy Dean is seems to be a good guy and he offers a perspective of having trained in several systems including Aikido. The perspective he offers though is his own and just one opinion. I recently had a fantastic Aikidoka at our training hall here in Las Vegas. Everyone that attended including BJJ, Judo, IRT practitioner's etc. left with no doubt that he could utilize his Aikido. Then again he is on a different level than most Aikidoka having practiced it for around 45 years.
In regards to methods of practice I personally fall in the group that believes resistence training is important for a practitioner's development. However, I have been around long enough and experienced people that practiced in systems that did not do this and they were still very, very good and would be effective. There are more ways to become effective in the Martial Sciences and personal protection than just one training methodology.
In regards to methods of practice I personally fall in the group that believes resistence training is important for a practitioner's development. However, I have been around long enough and experienced people that practiced in systems that did not do this and they were still very, very good and would be effective. There are more ways to become effective in the Martial Sciences and personal protection than just one training methodology.
Spinedoc
Brown Belt
Actually, Judo. I know Roy. He's a good guy. He's doing something a little different.
Another guy that is rather well known that has black belts in both Aikido and BJJ is Bruce Bookman.
Bruce Bookman’s response to Stan Pranin’s article, “Virtues of Aikido”
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
So going the way of kyokashin a bit.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Um...where do I even start...
Ok, when I said ramp up the training, I guess what I really meant was, train with both intensity and realism.
What I did not mean was, throw unrealistic attacks and then just move as fast as you can.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I'm trying to remember what your background in aikido is?
Hanzou
Grandmaster
It is quite limited, which is why I said "if". Of course if the methodology was sound, we wouldn't have all this doubt on Aikido's effectiveness from the practitioners themselves, or from outside observers who are experienced in other styles.
What Dean said about Aikido meshes well with my personal experience with the art. The part where he said an Aikidoka would simply be overwhelmed by a MMA, Judoka, or Bjj practitioner is something that I've personally witnessed on several occasions.
That prospect should be troubling to any Aikido practitioner.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I don't have any doubts about the effectiveness of aikido.
I do have some doubts about the practices found in some aikido schools, as instructed by some aikido sensei. But I have the same feelings about some schools and some teachers of just about any system being taught.
However, I don't see that as any reason to believe that a system itself is flawed, or that all teachers of a particular system are lousy.
And at the same time I can recognize that a certain system may not be my cup of tea.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Well no one said that all the teachers of Aikido were lousy.
Further, Aikido would be my cup of tea. I'm actually quite fond of the descendant arts of Japanese Jujutsu (Judo, Bjj, Aikido), and I rather like Aikido's Japanese aesthetic and their weapon training.
Unfortunately when I see Dean's comments, videos like this;
and seasoned Aikido black belts getting demolished by mid-range Judo and Bjj belts in my own experience, I have some serious misgivings.
Of course, my personal martial goals are not the goals of everyone else, and it goes without saying that Aikido clearly has some benefits for its practitioners.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Nobody has an issue with the people who train with intensity and realism.
Does Aikido have "grip fight" training? Can anybody answer this?
The training method is a feature of the school, perhaps of a sub-group of the art, but not necessarily of the art, itself. There are ways I teach and exercises I use that are not the same as those of my primary instructor, and some of his methods are not the same as those of the instructors within his association.
My point is that an instructor could bring more realistic, modern attacks to Ueshiba's Aikido than I have seen in the schools I visited, without losing the nature of the art. It would look different, to be sure, because the nature of the attack affects the response. It would still be Ueshiba's Aikido, though.
I don't think realistic training requires competition. True, sparring for points would be one way to introduce resistance, but I'd argue that's actually not the most realistic sort of resistance, anyway (since it's the resistance one gets from an experienced Aikidoka, rather than the natural resistance of those not trained in an "aiki" art).
What do you mean by "grip fight" training?
That is a danger, if all we do is speed it up. With a "good" uke, I can look like a god on the mats, without actually doing anything that resembles real defensive work (cue "demo" reel from most arts).
If we actually increase the intensity (so you actually punch harder, with actual intent to make contact) and with a punch that would be at least moderately effective, then it does actually improve the realism of the scenario. It's not a complete fix at that point, but it's a big step in the right direction.
Grip fighting is the process of working to obtain dominant* grips on your opponent while preventing him from getting good grips on you.
*"Dominant" in this case refers to grips which most easily allow you to throw your opponent or otherwise control his body while preventing him from doing the same to you. High-level Judo players are particularly adept at this.
It tends to be more of a focus in purely grappling arts than in combined striking/grappling arts.
Ah, so that would refer to the majority of what happens in the Olympic Judo matches?
In that case, again, it depends upon the instructor. I haven't seen it in any of the dojos I visited that taught Ueshiba's art, but I was never a long-term visitor at any of them, and the practice would be reasonable and useful for training in their techniques.
Now that I think of it, I remember one Aikido instructor and one of his senior students playing around during a break at a seminar I attended. They were doing some freestyle standing grappling, and a major part of it was this play for the dominant grip, much like what I'd experienced in Judo.
