Horrible Kenpo Clps

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Ok, let me try to explain it this way. For those of you who do FMA you may get my point and the purest EPAK guys may not. FMA guys spar all day long and they use there techniques that they were taught and practise when they spar. They learn how to counter and re conter there own techniques and make them work under stress and a RESISTANT OPPONET. What I am asking to see it someone in EPAK use there techniques that we all practise (i.e. 5 Swords Deflecting hammer) when we spar and please dont give me that bs about I would hurt my opponet. What are the 7 things that you can do to a technique? Every time I see a EPAK guy spar he looks just like the sport karate guy or a TKD guy. Are ANY of the techniques that we practise ever used at all? If not then why in the hell are we spending countless hours doing them? I am sure that someone is going to say something about the EPAK sparring techniques but the case it still the same.

What I do not love is this ridiculas way we "black belts train". We stand in a line and do techniques to each other and one guys beat the crap out of the other guy and the other guy just stands there and lets him. Well, I don't know about you but anyone try's thundering hammers on me I am not just going to let him do that. Our beloved EPAK is not so superior that it can not be countered and we never train for that.

Look I am just trying to learn how to apply the wonderful arts that I have been doing since 1991. It is time we evolve and leant how to apply EPAK and not just run techniques lines when we know the attack and know that our opponet is going to let us do out beloved 5 Swords.

 

[MJS]

Ok, let me try to explain it this way. For those of you who do FMA you may get my point and the purest EPAK guys may not. FMA guys spar all day long and they use there techniques that they were taught and practise when they spar. They learn how to counter and re conter there own techniques and make them work under stress and a RESISTANT OPPONET.

Well, I've done my share of stick sparring in my Arnis class and it looks nothing like the drills that we do with the opponent being compliant. Watching some Dog Brothers clips, I see the same thing that I see in the Arnis class. I see 2 people throwing strikes on various parts of the body. I see some ideas and concepts, but I have yet to see a full disarm pulled off. Let me rephrase that. I've seen disarms during stick sparring, but they're not done in the same textbook fashion that we'd see if the 2 people were just standing there. So...that being said, it goes right back to what I said in my last post.

What I am asking to see it someone in EPAK use there techniques that we all practise (i.e. 5 Swords Deflecting hammer) when we spar and please dont give me that bs about I would hurt my opponet. What are the 7 things that you can do to a technique? Every time I see a EPAK guy spar he looks just like the sport karate guy or a TKD guy. Are ANY of the techniques that we practise ever used at all? If not then why in the hell are we spending countless hours doing them? I am sure that someone is going to say something about the EPAK sparring techniques but the case it still the same.

Again, parts can be pulled off. Of course, when I'm running thru my techs. the people I'm working with do resist. Again, there is a difference between that and when you're sparring. As for sparring...for myself, I prefer continuous rather than point. I take on more of a boxing type stance, as well as adding in the boxing fundamentals, and there is more contact.

What I do not love is this ridiculas way we "black belts train". We stand in a line and do techniques to each other and one guys beat the crap out of the other guy and the other guy just stands there and lets him. Well, I don't know about you but anyone try's thundering hammers on me I am not just going to let him do that. Our beloved EPAK is not so superior that it can not be countered and we never train for that.

See above. By all means, if someone wishes to resist, thats not a bad thing. Thats why one needs to be able to flow to the next move. Its just like a lock flow series. The idea of that is to flow from one lock to the next. Its training you to be able to flow, so if something goes wrong with the first lock, you have something to fall back on.

The techniques that we have are a foundation for us to build off of. When the heat is on, chances are, you're not going to be thinking Attacking Mace or 5 Swords. You should be thinking of reacting. Its possible that you could use parts of 2 or 3 different techniques. After all, isn't that what grafting teaches us?

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I agree that we are not going to pull of anything by the book and I also agree that you will probably never be able to pull of the entire technique. So in that regard we agree completely. But my original post was about crapy clips and never seeing anyone do anything on a resistant opponet. I have not seen anyone show what we are talking about. I mean show me a 1st generation guy that has ever done a video or clip of this.


As far as the Dog Brothers stuff I was a bit disappointed with there close range work. Maybe that is becaise I have been doing Doce Pares and that is where those guys live and breath. As soon as the guys on the Dog brothers show got close they went straight to grappling and clinch work. Not that there is anything wrong with that and I end up there alot myself. But i did like most everything else about the show.

 

[MJS]

I agree that we are not going to pull of anything by the book and I also agree that you will probably never be able to pull of the entire technique. So in that regard we agree completely. But my original post was about crapy clips and never seeing anyone do anything on a resistant opponet. I have not seen anyone show what we are talking about. I mean show me a 1st generation guy that has ever done a video or clip of this.


As far as the Dog Brothers stuff I was a bit disappointed with there close range work. Maybe that is becaise I have been doing Doce Pares and that is where those guys live and breath. As soon as the guys on the Dog brothers show got close they went straight to grappling and clinch work. Not that there is anything wrong with that and I end up there alot myself. But i did like most everything else about the show.

Well, like I said earlier...the majority of what you see on youtube is demo stuff, seminar stuff, etc. Why isn't there stuff like you're looking for? No idea. Hey, if someone wants to judge the art off of a clip, thats fine. However, for someone to assume that is how all Kenpo people train...well, thats not fair to the ones that do train with resistance. Just this past Tuesday, I was working some techs. with my teacher. We went into a number of 'what if' situations off of the base tech.

As for the Dog Bros...I think they have alot of heart for doing what they do. To get in there and swing real sticks, full power, with little gear takes some guts. IIRC, they work with the Machados, so that is most likely why you see so much clinch and ground work.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Atlanta-Kenpo look up Kenpo Counterpoint. Here is a clip...it's a drill so not entirely alive. Of course it comes from a Kenpo/FMA guy under Huk Planas but...is this what you mean? sort of?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Well, like I said earlier...the majority of what you see on youtube is demo stuff, seminar stuff, etc. Why isn't there stuff like you're looking for? No idea. Hey, if someone wants to judge the art off of a clip, thats fine. However, for someone to assume that is how all Kenpo people train...well, thats not fair to the ones that do train with resistance. Just this past Tuesday, I was working some techs. with my teacher. We went into a number of 'what if' situations off of the base tech.

As for the Dog Bros...I think they have alot of heart for doing what they do. To get in there and swing real sticks, full power, with little gear takes some guts. IIRC, they work with the Machados, so that is most likely why you see so much clinch and ground work.

Yep.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I am very well versed in what Zach does and yes that is exactly what I am talking about. Zach is my instructor and has been for several years now. What he does I do not see anyone else do and his influence is where I have gotten my ideas from. What he does in that clip is incredible. If you watch it cloesly Josh is trying to counter him and Zach just keeps on moving. He is the only person taht I see do what I am refering to. I never mentioned his name because I did not want to seem bias.

 

[Ray]

Ok, let me try to explain it this way. For those of you who do FMA you may get my point and the purest EPAK guys may not. FMA guys spar all day long and they use there techniques that they were taught and practise when they spar. They learn how to counter and re conter there own techniques and make them work under stress and a RESISTANT OPPONET. What I am asking to see it someone in EPAK use there techniques that we all practise (i.e. 5 Swords Deflecting hammer) when we spar and please dont give me that bs about I would hurt my opponet. What are the 7 things that you can do to a technique? Every time I see a EPAK guy spar he looks just like the sport karate guy or a TKD guy. Are ANY of the techniques that we practise ever used at all? If not then why in the hell are we spending countless hours doing them? I am sure that someone is going to say something about the EPAK sparring techniques but the case it still the same.

Practice many ways for different effects. Heavy bag don't move unless I move it, it don't resist except for it's weight and if its bottom is tethered. Speed ball no resist but moves plenty quick.

Our beloved EPAK is not so superior that it can not be countered and we never train for that.

Superiority not in paint brush, but in painter.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I am very well versed in what Zach does and yes that is exactly what I am talking about. Zach is my instructor and has been for several years now. What he does I do not see anyone else do and his influence is where I have gotten my ideas from. What he does in that clip is incredible. If you watch it cloesly Josh is trying to counter him and Zach just keeps on moving. He is the only person taht I see do what I am refering to. I never mentioned his name because I did not want to seem bias.

Got it, now I know exactly what you are talking about.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Ray,

Yo, I think I get what your trying to say but wow! To equate a heavy bag to a resistant opponet. Good luck with that. That may work where you live but that will get you killed down here in Hot-Lanta.

hahahaha

 

[Ray]

Yo, I think I get what your trying to say but wow! To equate a heavy bag to a resistant opponet. Good luck with that. That may work where you live but that will get you killed down here in Hot-Lanta.

Nope. I didn't equate a heavy bag with a resistant opponent. I said that we must train a whole bunch of different ways for different effects and understand what each one gives us. A heavy bag has its uses, a stone dummy has its uses, sparring, using a resistant dummy; they all have their uses and benefits.

Where I live is assuredly much different than Atlanta. It's also much different than where I grew up (L.A.).

 

[DavidCC]

Nope. I didn't equate a heavy bag with a resistant opponent. I said that we must train a whole bunch of different ways for different effects and understand what each one gives us. A heavy bag has its uses, a stone dummy has its uses, sparring, using a resistant dummy; they all have their uses and benefits.

Where I live is assuredly much different than Atlanta. It's also much different than where I grew up (L.A.).

how many ways can Creston be considered the opposite (or reverse!) of Atlanta...?? as many as possible I think.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

hahahahahaha

right on guys

 

[Doc_Jude]

OK, I know that I am going to get a lot of crap for this one but I want to get the opinions of you all on this.

I am so freaking tried of all the bleeping crapy a^* videos/clips/youtube stuff out there showing a EPAK black belts doing techniques on someone who just stands there and lets he/she hit him 2,134 times. I am not just talking about 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree black belts either. We can all beat the living crap out of anyone who just stands there and lets you whale away on them and yes I do agree that that is stage in the learning process. But if your a super duper black belt who can leap tall buildingsin a single bound then why not show the world. Is everyone hiding all of the secret information?


Is, it me? Maybe I am just not looking at the right people or maybe I have lost my way. Someone please show me the light here. If you have a clip of someone please send it to me.

You've got the "Professor"? Why don't YOU post a vid to show everyone the light... Sheesh

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I do. I have have the professor? Who would that be?

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

Hello from Australia, everyone.

Hope you don't mind me reviving an old thread.

36 years young and training in Kenpo 5.0 here (Did pure EPAK before; graded till purple, and was ready to go for blue, but then had to move overseas; now going through the System again and loving every minute of it... just got my yellow once more BTW!)

Atlanta-Kenpo: Understand your issue and feel that way sometimes as well. Might want to check out a series of clips by CounterforCounter on Youtube; very interesting and useful stuff. Basically, Kenpo Black Belts with FMA and Jujitsu experience demonstrate how you can 'box' with Five Swords (clip is called 'functional five swords'), grapple using Kenpo principles, and even work Kenpo techs into Hubud drills.

Kenpojujitsu3: Really love your stuff, mate. And sense of humor

Best regards,
TCG

 

[Kenpo17]

No, I do not have a Kenpo clip to show you right now. However, to answer your question, a lot of the EPAK Black Belts you see on Youtube are actually able to do everything you named, such as defend themselves against an actual attacker on the streets. What you are seeing on sites such as Youtube, are demonstrations, belt testing, sparring, etc. In Demonstration, and I would know this since I have been on many, many Demo Teams, and in many tournaments myself that in demonstations you use uke's, which are men, or women who throw the attack at you while you do the technique. Sometimes people will forget that the attackers in demonstrations are just uke's, and not the real thing. People will sometimes get hung up trying to find the "real thing" on Youtube. If you were really attacked on the streets, I can tell you right now that you wouldn't find it on Youtube, because on the streets, it happens so quickly and without anyone around to video-tape it.

 

[ackks10]

wow!! it looks like everyone has something to say about someone else doing kenpo, let me say this, James was right with what he said in his post about teqs, and teaching, but (i see all the time) if you had to do something on the street,(i don;t care what teq you do) and you hit the perp,he will not do what the person in the dojo will do,i know i have been there and worked on the st for a long time,and this thing about getting close,well thats kenpo,but there is long hand kenpo to,and people talk about the viedos on youtube it don't matter what kind of stuff you put out there,people will talk-- about it,i know they do it with my stuff,but i don't care,anyway i want to say this,the other day i had this man try to tell me that kenpo is a sport because his son is a student at this kenpo school where they do all these flips,jumps,rolls, and punp roundhouse kicks(give me a break) but you see (the father don't know) get what i'm saying:BSmeter:

 

[celtic_crippler]

...if you just want to see someone getting thier butt kicked with kenpo...

..and yes...it hurt.

 

[ackks10]

...if you just want to see someone getting thier butt kicked with kenpo...

..and yes...it hurt.

you the man,i have always said that:uhyeah: