Honor the flag

[billc]

From conspiracy network...ABC...interviewing a Ranger on site of the friendly fire incident...

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Pat...olleagues-pat-tillman/Story?id=8541279&page=4

Group two was 15 minutes behind group one when they were ambushed in a canyon.
Tillman was in group one, his brother Kevin was in the other.
When Tillman's group heard the explosion, they raced to get in position to help their platoon mates.
"I heard the gunfire, and then I saw the tracer rounds -- pouring out of the canyon," said Aker, who was with Pat Tillman in group one. "It was like -- It was almost like a fireworks show. And my adrenaline just immediately spiked. And then once I got out of the vehicle my squad leader, you know, he was like, 'All right. This is it. Calm down, you know this is what we trained for.' And then we charged up the hill."
Communications were down -- and group two was unaware that their fellow rangers were on the ridge ready to support them.
"The guys being ambushed came racing out, guns blazing," Krakauer said.
Tillman and an Afghan soldier were both killed by friendly fire. Several members of the platoon witnessed the tragedy.
"I saw him slump over and I saw a grabbing and pulling back and that's when I thought he was hit," Boatright said. "There was a mist of red."

"The shooting started, basically, as soon as this Humvee turned the corner -- shooting continually. Hundreds of rounds found," Krakauer explained. "At this point, it's only 35 yards away, 120 feet -- the difference between second base and home plate. And they are just unloading on these guys. Tillman throws a smoke grenade to try and indicate they're friendlies -- no good, they're shot and killed. And that's what happened."

What the guy in the above quote does't understand is military tactics when caught in a close ambush...you immediately pour fire on the enemy positions and aggressively attack...a lesson learned in Vietnam...and considering the confusion, the inability to hear, the tunnel vision, the fear, the excitement, the lack of radio contact...any wonder people were killed?

 

[Makalakumu]

The same sources you quote now as gospel are the same ones that lie to you about other subjects. I would suggest that you have a lot more skepticism in regards to claims by the government. Pat Tillman was not your average anti-war vet. He was a football star and that gives him god-like credibility to many Americans. I don't think you can even imagine how sensational it would have been had he came home and come out against the war. Pat Tillman, football star, joins the military to fight the terrorists, after giving up a career in the NFL, and now thinks the war on terror is a sham! He would have been on every TV show, every talk show, every news program. You saw how the media manipulated the Zimmerman/Martin situation. Can you even imagine how the HateBush camp would take this and run?

 

[Makalakumu]

From conspiracy network...ABC...interviewing a Ranger on site of the friendly fire incident...

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Pat...olleagues-pat-tillman/Story?id=8541279&page=4





What the guy in the above quote does't understand is military tactics when caught in a close ambush...you immediately pour fire on the enemy positions and aggressively attack...a lesson learned in Vietnam...and considering the confusion, the inability to hear, the tunnel vision, the fear, the excitement, the lack of radio contact...any wonder people were killed?

How do you know this story isn't "Trayvoned" up?

 

[K-man]

Besides...freindly fire incidents happen...it wouldn't even be a criminal case considering what actually happened anyway.

Bill, all I said was using Tillman as an example was a poor choice. But cover-ups do happen. For example ...

In the Marine Corps, they are quietly calling it their My Lai, the massacre of hundreds of villagers in 1968 that became a symbol for American brutality in the Vietnam war. In this generation's war, the village is Haditha, north-west of Baghdad, where US marines killed two dozen Iraqi civilians, including 11 women and children.
In what is being viewed as the gravest allegation to date of war crimes in Iraq, a military investigation is expected to present findings in Baghdad next week that a small group of troops shot dead 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including five men in a taxi, and women and children at homes in the town last November 19.


Other marines then tried to cover up the killings, the investigation has found.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/may/27/iraq.topstories3

As I said, the flag means different things to different people. What do you think the flag means to the relatives of these Iraqi civilians. (The full article includes much more detail.) :asian:

 

[ballen0351]

The same sources you quote now as gospel are the same ones that lie to you about other subjects. I would suggest that you have a lot more skepticism in regards to claims by the government. Pat Tillman was not your average anti-war vet. He was a football star and that gives him god-like credibility to many Americans. I don't think you can even imagine how sensational it would have been had he came home and come out against the war. Pat Tillman, football star, joins the military to fight the terrorists, after giving up a career in the NFL, and now thinks the war on terror is a sham! He uwould have been on every TV show, every talk show, every news program. You saw how the media manipulated the Zimmerman/Martin situation. Can you even imagine how the HateBush camp would take this and run?

So how did they talk an entire unit of his friends and his own brother to kill him and then keep quiet about it?

 

[ballen0351]

..



As I said, the flag means different things to different people. What do you think the flag means to the relatives of these Iraqi civilians. (The full article includes much more detail.) :asian:

I Dont care what the flag represents to them or you or anyone else. I know what it means to me and my friends.

 

[K-man]

I Dont care what the flag represents to them or you or anyone else. I know what it means to me and my friends.

As is your right. I understand exactly your position and I respect it. :asian:

 

[ballen0351]

I do often wonder if the flag has more symbolism to Marines then other because of the iconic flag raising photo from Iwo jima. That's like the Marine Corps calling card you see it and know it represents the USMC. Not to say Marines are motivated or anything its just their claim to fame so to speak.

 

[oftheherd1]

When the ideals represented in the cloth are not represented by the people who wave it, that's a problem. I think it's a problem inherit in the process of using the symbol. If the ideals are represented externally, then pretenders can wave the symbol and ape the motions, getting all of the respect that someone should get by standing true and holding to those ideals internally.

How many politicians who wave the flag before everything they do, actually prove they believe in the ideals the flag represents?

I think that despite what you have been saying, you have proven how important the symbolism of the flag is to many people; so many people want to cash in on it.

But I will grant you that I have no respect for any who try to gain respect when it isn't due them.

 

[billc]

And a look at Haditha...very detailed...

http://pjmedia.com/blog/post_234/

And a look at the outcome...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/01/lessons_from_hadithas_quiet_denouement.html

Six years ago, in Haditha, Iraq, in the wake of a deadly insurgent attack on their convoy, a Marine quick reaction force raided several houses from which they were taking fire. At the conclusion of the action it became clear that a number of Iraqi civilians had been killed, which was duly reported up the Marine Corps chain of command. The command determined that while the deaths were unfortunate, the engaged Marines had not violated the laws of war.

​

Then, early in 2006, a reporter from Time Magazine got wind of the incident, and all hell broke loose. An Army report condemned the Marines, Democrat Congressman John Murtha announced that Marines had killed Iraqi civilians in "cold blood," and the press in general had a field day. Under this new assault, the Marine Corps changed its tune and preferred court-martial charges against eight Marines, from enlisted men to battalion commander. These unfortunate men were accused of everything from obstruction of justice to murder.

Over the next two years the Haditha cases fell apart. One after another, the eight accused Marines were exonerated in Article 32 hearings, saw charges dropped in return for immunity, or were acquitted at trial. By 2008, only a single remaining Marine, Staff Sergeant Frank Wuterich, stood accused of unpremeditated murder in the case. His case lingered until last week, when it too died with a whimper. Wuterich pled guilty to a much-reduced charge of dereliction of duty. What did the military justice system finally determine was Wuterich's crime? He told his men to "shoot first and ask questions later." After all, his men were Marines, not policemen.

Wuterich received no jail time and no loss of pay, but he saw his rank reduced to private.

The Haditha legal fiasco might help answer the question. The battalion involved in the Haditha incident had its own operational lawyer on hand, Marine Captain Randy Stone. While it appears that he was not consulted before the Marines launched their assault, in the wake of the incident, he vetted their accounts and determined that the laws of war had not been violated. For this Captain Stone found himself among the eight Marines initially charged! Stone endured an Article 32 investigatory hearing (the military equivalent of a grand jury), but eventually charges against him were dropped.
When the operational lawyers are being charged along with the soldiers and Marines they are supposed to be operationally advising, something indeed is wrong with the system.
The real problem is that one person's legitimate military operation is another's war crime, and the so-called "laws of war" have little to do with it.

Clearly Marine commanders' early instincts in the case were correct, but the Corps subsequently allowed itself to be bulldozed into a Dickensian legal farce. This was a function not only of bad publicity and political pressure, but of the increasingly legalistic nature of the armed forces in general. Like other areas of American society, the military is over-lawyered and increasingly hamstrung by its own rules and regulations.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

Please tell me that didn't happen!
Now I don't know what to believe from US officials. As far as I can tell they will lie and try to cover up anything given half a chance.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I can read and I do question. :asian:

I'm just curious how you understand what you see of what the the video shows. And do you have information not shown in the video about the events that took place?

 

[crushing]

Very ironic that the alleged veteran in the video gets up in arms about the treatment of the flag when it is displayed at the store, yet once he steals it and it is in his hands, he thinks nothing of wadding the American flag up in to a crumpled ball like discarded trash.

I agree. The grandstanding vandal and thief in the video really didn't show much respect for the flag. Worse yet, he disrespected what that flag symbolizes.

 

[Steve]

Guys, can we not agree that the flag holds particular value to some people, and less to others? Also, we can recognize that the brotherhood (mateship) between soldiers is not necessarily centered around the flag?

Personally, I think that the idea of brotherhood/mateship is a really important and valuable concept, but it's not something that America has the monopoly on. Since we're a bunch of nerds here, The Lord of the Rings was heavily influenced by Tolkein's experiences in WWI and the relationships between the members of the fellowship were intended to be an illustration of the bonds that are created in times of war, for exactly the reasons you mention, Ballen. Tolkien believed that this bond was the strongest human bond possible, even stronger than the bond between mother and child or husband and wife.

But, that bond is not the same as reverence or respect for the flag, which I believe is ALSO important. The flag provides some sense of purpose. The brotherhood is a product of the immediate need of crisis. Ballen, tying it as you are doing to the American flag seems to me like it devalues the similar experiences of soldiers from other countries and implies that without the Stars and Stripes, that bond cannot genuinely exist.

 

[K-man]

I'm just curious how you understand what you see of what the the video shows. And do you have information not shown in the video about the events that took place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike

Just another example of winning the hearts and minds of the locals!

 

[Tgace]

And from a different quarter:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/n...4b19ab2c3675f48980b8.html#MHxEXtbisJUSVH1x.99

MOSCOW (AP) - The American rock group Bloodhound Gang was kicked out of a Russian music festival and pelted with eggs after videos emerged of its bass player shoving a Russian flag down his pants at a recent concert in Ukraine. Russian prosecutors are even considering whether to open a criminal case in the matter, which comes amid a rise in U.S.-Russian tensions.
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/n...4b19ab2c3675f48980b8.html#PiPV0OkROxmcCt2z.99

 

[ballen0351]

But, that bond is not the same as reverence or respect for the flag, which I believe is ALSO important. The flag provides some sense of purpose. The brotherhood is a product of the immediate need of crisis. Ballen, tying it as you are doing to the American flag seems to me like it devalues the similar experiences of soldiers from other countries and implies that without the Stars and Stripes, that bond cannot genuinely exist.

Steve the thing is I dont care about other countries. I dont care about their bonds. I dont care about their flags. The topic was the US Flag not the French flag or this flag or that flag. I dont care if I devalue other countries because I do devalue them I hold MY military higher then all others, in fact I hold My US Marines above even other military branches in the US military. It is what it Is I dont care who it offends. Do other soldiers in other countries have the bond sure I have no doubt but that wasn't the topic. My point was and is still the same there are some folks that if you disrespect of the flag in front of them it could be harmful to your health. Not because the flag has any special powers but because of what it represents to them.

 

[ballen0351]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike

Just another example of winning the hearts and minds of the locals!

And glass houses my friend I seem to recall a thread showing the dirty deeds from your country as well but it was quickly locked since its only ok to knock down the US but bring up other places and you get infraction warnings and threads get locked. War is hell bad things happen, I dont condone criminal behavior or mistakes but they are few and far between

 

[billc]

If you look into the helicopter shooting, and Makalakumu posted about that a year or two ago and I watched the entire video, not just that short clip...it was an active combat zone and the troops on the ground had been taking fire from the area. The guy was armed and was a legitimate target, and the reporters happened to be with him when the helicopters shot him...as to the van with the children in it...that is what happens when the radical muslim terrorists hide in innocent communities. The van was a civilian vehicle without the markings of an emergency vehicle. If it had had an emergency vehicle marking they wouldn't have fired on it.

The bad guys use innocent people as human shields when they attack our troops...that is why they shouldn't recieve the same protections as regular military forces under the Geneva convention and that is why they never used to get that protection. By giving them legitimate protection...you just encourage them to hide where innocents live, especially women and children. They should have kept the status of unlawful enemy combatants...

From your post k-man...

Context[edit source | editbeta]

See also: 2007 in Iraq, Iraq War troop surge of 2007, and List of coalition military operations of the Iraq War#2007
According to Tom Cohen, a reporter at CNN, "the soldiers of Bravo Company 2-16 Infantry had been under fire all morning from rocket-propelled grenades and small arms on the first day of Operation Ilaaj in Baghdad".[SUP][19][/SUP] Al Jazeera stated that the Army had received "reports of small arms fire", but were unable to positively identify the gunmen.

Apache helicopters were called in by a soldier in the Humvee (Hotel 2/6) under attack from the same position used by Namir Noor-Eldeen to photograph the vehicle.[SUP][20][/SUP] According to a military review, soldiers in that company "had been under sporadic small arms and rocket propelled grenade fire since" the operation—described as "clearing their sector and looking for weapons caches"—began.[SUP][21][/SUP]

The Air Weapons Team (AWT) of two Apache AH-64s (part of the 1st Cavalry Division) had been requested by the Army's 2–16 Infantry Battalion, under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Kauzlarich, before July 12 to support Operation Ilaaj. Tasked to conduct escort, armed reconnaissance patrols, counter-IED and counter-mortar operations, the two helicopters left Camp Taji at 9:24am. They arrived on station in New Baghdad at 9:53am, where, according to the official report, sporadic attacks on coalition forces continued.[SUP][22][/SUP]

 

[billc]

Keep in mind...medical vehicles in a war zone are marked so that regular soldiers, as part of the Geneva convention don't shoot them...of course most of the bad countries will still shoot our medical evac equipment but we don't...this van wasn't marked in anyway...

Again, from you post K-man...

Attack on a van[edit source | editbeta]

The wounded Chmagh was crawling on the ground,[SUP][25][/SUP][SUP][31][/SUP] when a van appeared at the scene.[SUP][19][/SUP][SUP][25][/SUP][SUP][31][/SUP] In the van was Saleh Mutashar, taking his two children age nine and six to visit his brother.[SUP][32][/SUP] They saw an injured man lying on the street.[SUP][33][/SUP]

The van had no visible markings to suggest it was an ambulance or a protected vehicle.[SUP][9][/SUP]

Mutashar said to "take him to [a] hospital".[SUP][33][/SUP] In the helicopter, the crew saw unarmed[SUP][25][/SUP] men attempted to carry Chmagh into the van.[SUP][19][/SUP][SUP][25][/SUP][SUP][31][/SUP] The watching helicopter crews requested permission to engage, stating "…looks like [the men] possibly uh, picking up bodies and weapons" from the scene,[SUP][34][/SUP] and after repeating their request by "Let me engage" and "Come on, let us shoot!",[SUP][35][/SUP][SUP][36][/SUP][SUP][37][/SUP][SUP][38][/SUP][SUP][39][/SUP]received permission to open fire on the van and its occupants.[SUP][19][/SUP][SUP][25][/SUP][SUP][31][/SUP] From the 30 mm fire shot at the van, sitting in the front seat, both children were wounded but survived.[SUP][19][/SUP][SUP][25][/SUP][SUP][31][/SUP] Chmagh was killed[SUP][19][/SUP][SUP][25][/SUP][SUP][31][/SUP] along with the children's father.[SUP][33][/SUP] Sajad Mutashar, one of the surviving children later told a reporter: "We were coming back and we saw an injured man. My father said, let's take him to hospital. Then I heard only the bullets ... Why did they shoot us?"[SUP][33][/SUP]

Again, this is what happens when you give unlawful enemy combatants the protection of regular soldiers...they get to hide among civilians and use them as cover and there is no down side for them...and then innocent people get killed...blame the radical muslim terrorists...not our troops...

 

[billc]

As to the moron assange and his use of the video to smear the good guys...

Commentary[edit source | editbeta]

Still frames from the leaked video with individuals wielding items of weapon-like appearance[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]​

WikiLeaks said in the preface to one of their videos of the incident that "some of the men appear to have been armed [although] the behavior of nearly everyone was relaxed" in the introductory text of the shorter video.[SUP][42][/SUP] Julian Assange said “permission to engage was given before the word ‘RPG’ was ever used”.[SUP][42][/SUP]Politifact states: "When Assange points out in the context of justifying the title "Collateral Murder" that the word "RPG" was not used until after the permission to engage was given, he leaves the impression that the soldiers were given the okay to open fire on a group of unarmed men, or men believed to be unarmed.

But the video and accompanying audio make clear that the soldiers in the helicopter said they spotted "weapons" among those in the group. -- later identified by an army investigator as an AK-47, RPG rounds[SUP][43][/SUP]and 2 RPG launchers, one of which was loaded.[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][44][/SUP] Assange later acknowledged "Based upon visual evidence I suspect there probably were AKs and an RPG, but I'm not sure that means anything,"[SUP][[/SUP]

"Based upon visual evidence I suspect there probably were AKs and an RPG, but I'm not sure that means anything,"

What it means is that they are fair targets in a combat zone...