Honor the flag

[Makalakumu]

You presume that the concept of a symbol would be foreign to ET. Unless you're in some loop I'm not aware of, I don't think that premise is a given. It seems reasonable to me to believe that a sentient being, even one foreign to the Earth, would understand the concept of a symbol. It is, after all, the concept of symbols that allows for a written language or even speech. 'Dog' is not a dog. It is a word that we who speak English understand to represent a furry creature prone to drool and bark.

What is the difference between the vocalization for the animal dog and the meaning infused into the piece of cloth we call a flag?

I think if aliens were familiar with our use of symbols, they would be familiar with it in a Monty Python sort of way. I can see LGM's telepathically laughing at our funny little dances and way too serious reactions when it comes to these symbols. It's Reality TV for them!

 

[ballen0351]

What is the difference between the vocalization for the animal dog and the meaning infused into the piece of cloth we call a flag?

I think if aliens were familiar with our use of symbols, they would be familiar with it in a Monty Python sort of way. I can see LGM's telepathically laughing at our funny little dances and way too serious reactions when it comes to these symbols. It's Reality TV for them!

so we shouldnt have pride or beliefs in anything?

 

[ballen0351]

I understand your heart on this, Ballen and I do not mean to anger you my friend when I, very gently, ask whether that reaction of violence to someone not showing due respect to a symbol you hold dear actually does due honour to what that symbol if supposed to stand for?

I empathise with what you are saying about what it means to you personal, for good reasons that no one will dispute with you but isn't one of the things the flag of the USA supposed to stand for the Constitution of your country? A Constitution written as well as the Founders could make it to ensure personal freedom to do pretty much what you will as long as it breaks no ones leg or picks no ones pocket?

My friend this is one of the times personal beliefs beat out rational thought. I understand people have the right to wipe their butts with the flag. I get people have freedoms to disrespect the flag. To me this is one of the line in the sand moments every person has to have. Some its not a big deal and they have other line in the sand issues. Ive Been to Arlington National cemetery, Ive been to military and police funerals. Ive had friends bodies draped in that flag so to me you dont disrespect it. Now I think Im old enough now to not physically attack someone if I were to witness something like that but Im actually not sure how Id react. I do know several of my friends that lost more then me that would snap on someone. Its not the flag that they are protecting its what the flag represents. It dose not represent the USA to me or them it represents my brothers that were lost. My friends that I drank beer with, trained with, lived with, that are no longer here, it represents to me the 100s of thousands that died for me. Anyone thats never been to Arlington I suggest going to visit walking in silence and taking it in. Ive done military funerals and handed a grieving wife a folded flag.

I dont want to insult your intelligence my friend but heres what Arlington is in case your not sure
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/

 

[Makalakumu]

so we shouldnt have pride or beliefs in anything?

Not in objects, nor religions, or nations. If we place our ideals on golden calves rather than look for them in ourselves, we completely lose our grasp of what those ideals actually look like in reality.

 

[ballen0351]

Not in objects, nor religions, or nations. If we place our ideals on golden calves rather than look for them in ourselves, we completely lose our grasp of what those ideals actually look like in reality.

So every man for himself. screw everyone else.

 

[Makalakumu]

So every man for himself. screw everyone else.

No. Be good. Do Good. Don't gesture at a piece of cloth and pretend. Have a consistent moral code that you apply to yourself and expect of others and don't make excuses. Be honest when you fall short. Be willing to accept reason and evidence that shows your contradictions for what they are. Work to correct them.

The focus on the symbol turns the energy of any ideals it is suppose to represent outside of the self. Get rid of the symbol and make it a part of who you are.

 

[K-man]

It always amazes me how other nationalities don't seem to hold their country's flag in the same honor we do. No doubt others wonder about us. But I think we accept it as a symbol of not only our nation in general, but its ideals, and the struggles we have gone though to make our nation the good nation we think it is. And one can carry a flag and show honor to it, where it would be difficult to carry ones entire geographical nation around. ;-)

I'm sure most people are very passionate about their flag. Certainly Aussies are and the Poms too. Our flag creates the same emotion and I am annoyed when someone defiles it. If I was in a do or die situation with my mates I would be happy to risk life and limb but if no other person's life was in danger there is no way I would be risking my health to defend a flag, no matter how much respect I have for it.

Flying the American flag below the Mexican flag is defying convention. Whether it was a calculated insult we do not know. Rather than making a big issue of cutting the flags down and leaving the Mexican flag on the ground it may have been better to have spoken to the owner before taking the action he did.
:asian:

 

[billc]

A great quote from a super series of military fiction but I have always thought that Major Hogan was wrong. Men don't fight for a rag on a pole, they fight for each other.

They may fight for the man next to them...but the reason they are fighting with the man next to them has a strong tendency to be for the values represented by our flag. Ask the vets here, especially the combat arms, in particular the infantry, and see what they have to say why they joined up...after all, they didn't know that guy next to them until they signed up...

 

[billc]

A friend of mine from Norway said that a lot of their guys enlist in the Norwegian Army to have a few years of adventure...to have fun...that is very different from a lot of guys who sign up here in the states...especially after 9/11 when they knew they weren't going in to sit around a Fort for their 4 years...especially the guys who joined for the infantry. They knew exactly what they were going to experience...and experienced...and then reenlisted...to go back and fight...

That football player...I don't know his name...the one who passed up a 3 million dollar contract, with all that goes with being a professional football player, to go into the Airborne Rangers...do you think he did that for anything other than what the flag represented...especially leaving his wife and family to do it...

 

[billc]

What about Jimmy Stewart? His acting career was just starting to take off when World War 2 broke out...and he fought to get a combat job...

 

[ballen0351]

No. Be good. Do Good. Don't gesture at a piece of cloth and pretend. Have a consistent moral code that you apply to yourself and expect of others and don't make excuses. Be honest when you fall short. Be willing to accept reason and evidence that shows your contradictions for what they are. Work to correct them.

The focus on the symbol turns the energy of any ideals it is suppose to represent outside of the self. Get rid of the symbol and make it a part of who you are.

you cant do both? You cant have a good moral code and a love of community? You cant take pride in being a part of something bigger then yourself? It has nothing to do with the cloth itself its what the cloth represents.

 

[ballen0351]

That football player...I don't know his name...the one who passed up a 3 million dollar contract, with all that goes with being a professional football player, to go into the Airborne Rangers...do you think he did that for anything other than what the flag represented...especially leaving his wife and family to do it...

Pat Tillman

 

[Steve]

What is the difference between the vocalization for the animal dog and the meaning infused into the piece of cloth we call a flag?

I think if aliens were familiar with our use of symbols, they would be familiar with it in a Monty Python sort of way. I can see LGM's telepathically laughing at our funny little dances and way too serious reactions when it comes to these symbols. It's Reality TV for them!

words and flags are both symbols. But they symbolize different things. While an alien might not understand the specific conventions related to a particular symbol, they would surely understand the nature of symbols.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[oftheherd1]

What is the difference between the vocalization for the animal dog and the meaning infused into the piece of cloth we call a flag?

I think if aliens were familiar with our use of symbols, they would be familiar with it in a Monty Python sort of way. I can see LGM's telepathically laughing at our funny little dances and way too serious reactions when it comes to these symbols. It's Reality TV for them!

You seem to be awfully familiar with how aliens think. How many do you know to speak for them that way?

We can make a lot of suppositions, but I don't think anyone who doesn't really know any aliens, if in fact they exist, can be sure how they think or what their value systems would encompass.

Not in objects, nor religions, or nations. If we place our ideals on golden calves rather than look for them in ourselves, we completely lose our grasp of what those ideals actually look like in reality.

Where do we get those great ideas we are going to look inside ourselves for? Work your way up the chain. Where does it lead you? If you can only look inside yourself for good ideas you are missing out on a lot of neat things.

No. Be good. Do Good. Don't gesture at a piece of cloth and pretend. Have a consistent moral code that you apply to yourself and expect of others and don't make excuses. Be honest when you fall short. Be willing to accept reason and evidence that shows your contradictions for what they are. Work to correct them.

The focus on the symbol turns the energy of any ideals it is suppose to represent outside of the self. Get rid of the symbol and make it a part of who you are.

I do not salute the flag nor place my hand over my heart in pretend. Apparently you are different. Personally, I think that is your loss. But you are free to believe what you will. Oh, and I have no contradictions about my beliefs, including my belief that I should show respect to the flag of the USA. It is sort of sad to me that apparently you do.

I'm not sure what to make of your last sentence. Certainly showing respect for the flag shows to those around (outside) us, some of our values. To get rid of the symbol and make it part of who we are? Isn't showing respect to the flag showing something about who we are?

 

[oftheherd1]

Pat Tillman

Who let it be said, was treated rather shamefully by some members of the military. Shame on them.

 

[oftheherd1]

I'm sure most people are very passionate about their flag. Certainly Aussies are and the Poms too. Our flag creates the same emotion and I am annoyed when someone defiles it. If I was in a do or die situation with my mates I would be happy to risk life and limb but if no other person's life was in danger there is no way I would be risking my health to defend a flag, no matter how much respect I have for it.

Flying the American flag below the Mexican flag is defying convention. Whether it was a calculated insult we do not know. Rather than making a big issue of cutting the flags down and leaving the Mexican flag on the ground it may have been better to have spoken to the owner before taking the action he did.
:asian:

Thanks for your answer. I also would be unlikely to fight someone for their actions against my country's flag. Not that I am not passionate about respect for the flag and my country that it stands for. Rather, since there is no law against it, they have that right to show disrespect for it, and I must defend that as I would their speech against anything that I believe in. That is one of our freedoms. If I want to express my opinions, I not only have to let others do the same, I must go beyond and actually defend their right to disagree with me.

Those who say they would be violent (other than in hyperbole), must be prepared to be held accountable. I may have sympathy for their passion, and give them support as they work through that accountability, but I could never condone that violence.

I really doubt most in here would in fact turn to violence.

 

[Carol]

Very ironic that the alleged veteran in the video gets up in arms about the treatment of the flag when it is displayed at the store, yet once he steals it and it is in his hands, he thinks nothing of wadding the American flag up in to a crumpled ball like discarded trash.

 

[K-man]

A friend of mine from Norway said that a lot of their guys enlist in the Norwegian Army to have a few years of adventure...to have fun...that is very different from a lot of guys who sign up here in the states...especially after 9/11 when they knew they weren't going in to sit around a Fort for their 4 years...especially the guys who joined for the infantry. They knew exactly what they were going to experience...and experienced...and then reenlisted...to go back and fight...

That football player...I don't know his name...the one who passed up a 3 million dollar contract, with all that goes with being a professional football player, to go into the Airborne Rangers...do you think he did that for anything other than what the flag represented...especially leaving his wife and family to do it...

Mmm! Perhaps Tillman is not the best example here. To be honest, I had never heard of Tillman before this but his story is quite sad. He didn't pass up a huge contract to join up to fight for "anything other than what the flag represented". That is sentimental nonsense. He joined up because, like a lot of people, he was incensed by the events of 911. And, he didn't leave his wife and family to do it, in that sense. Everyone joining up was 'leaving family'. He actually joined up and served with his brother, and he married just before joining up. He lived with his wife during his time in Ranger school.

But what happened next is the really interesting bit. He had signed up with his brother. After basic training he was sent to Iraq. He finished that tour and went to Ranger School so he obviously was enjoying his time in the military. From there, he was sent to Afghanistan. He actually was opposed to the war in Afghanistan. He was serving with his mates and actually opposed what his flag represented if you take it that the flag represented America's involvement in that conflict. Then he was killed and the story becomes really fascinating. Loyalty to the flag? What followed was a barrow load of lies and cover ups. He was killed by his own comrades and there is the question of whether or not he was actually murdered. What a waste of a young man's life. All for what his flag represented? Sadly, I doubt it.

Tillman's brother Kevin Tillman testified at the same hearing that: "The deception surrounding this [Tillman] case was an insult to the family: but more importantly, its primary purpose was to deceive a whole nation. We say these things with disappointment and sadness for our country. Once again, we have been used as props in a Pentagon public relations exercise."

and ...

Despite his fame, Tillman did not want to be used for propaganda purposes. He spoke to friends about his opposition to President Bush and the Iraq war, and he had made an appointment with notable government critic Noam Chomsky for after his return from the military. The destruction of evidence linked to Tillman's death, including his personal journal, led his mother to speculate that he was murdered. General Wesley Clark agreed that it was "very possible"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman
:asian:

 

[billc]

We can make a lot of suppositions, but I don't think anyone who doesn't really know any aliens, if in fact they exist, can be sure how they think or what their value systems would encompass.

Considering the alleged fascination with certain types of "probes" of aliens...they seem kind of weird...just saying.

Murdrerd? He was killed in a friendly fire accident, something that happens all the time in combat.

 

[billc]

Pat Tillman wasn't murdered, that is a fever dream of the lefty nutters.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-07-31-tillman-death_N.htm?csp=34

"I believe the buck stops with Gen. Kensinger," Geren said.Tillman, 27, was killed in Afghanistan in April 2004. At first, the Army said he had been killed by enemy forces and awarded him a Silver Star for bravery at a nationally televised ceremony. Five weeks after his death, Tillman's family was told that he died by friendly fire. The Army said the delay was because of procedural mistakes.
Several investigations had determined the Army had not intended to deceive Tillman's family, Geren said at a Pentagon news conference. He blamed the delay on a "perfect storm of mistakes" among Army leaders.The investigations found, Geren said, that Tillman died from friendly fire, that there was no cover-up and that Tillman deserved his Silver Star, the Army's third-highest commendation. He called Tillman's death a tragedy and an accident.Although several other officers were criticized for their actions after Tillman's death, Geren laid the blame squarely on Kensinger. He said the general had deceived investigators about what he knew and when he knew it, failed to inform Tillman's family in a timely way and failed to appoint a safety board to investigate his death."Your failings compounded the grief suffered by the Tillman family, resulted in the dissemination of erroneous information and caused lasting damage to the reputation and credibility of the U.S. Army," Geren wrote in his letter. "You are accountable and responsible for the failures of your command."​

So, they let julien Assange live, and Bradley manning live and the new guy lowdown, but they moved heaven and earth to kill one Army Ranger who some claim didn't like the war in Afganistan...the "good" war that all the lefties said was the war we should be fighting?

Really?