Honor the flag

[K-man]

Murdrerd? He was killed in a friendly fire accident, something that happens all the time in combat.

Yep! Clear case of something that happens all the time.

In addition, in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by the Associated Press, the Defense Department released 2,300 pages of documents which were reported to indicate:


There has never been evidence of enemy fire found on the scene, and no members of Tillman's group had been hit by enemy fire.


The three-star general who withheld details of Tillman's death from his parents for a number of months told investigators approximately 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.


Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.


Army doctors told the investigators that Tillman's wounds suggested murder because "the medical evidence did not match-up with the scenario as described."


There were special forces snipers in the group immediately behind Tillman's platoon.

Yep! You are obviously right, nothing out of order, stuff that happens every day ... but, wouldn't it have been embarrassing if their poster boy had made his true feelings known?
:asian:

 

[billc]

And yet, they allegedly murdered Pat Tillman...and left his brother...who was in the same convoy alive...? Hmmmm...perhaps his brother was part of the conspiracy?

You know, a battlefield isn't a paint ball field.

There has never been evidence of enemy fire found on the scene, and no members of Tillman's group had been hit by enemy fire.

I'm not sure what this is meant to imply...they saw other guys up ahead and opened fire and it turned out to be their own guys...it happens...ask guys who have served. We had a marine in our school, back from Iraq, wounded and out of the Marines, who told us he was out on patrol with Afghani forces, leading a squad of the guys when he started taking fire. He poked his head up from cover and had his guys radio to the other guys in his platoon..."Have your guys stop shooting at us." It happens all the time.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35717-2004Dec4.html

Dozens of witness statements, e-mails, investigation findings, logbooks, maps and photographs obtained by The Washington Post

show that Tillman died unnecessarily after botched communications, a mistaken decision to split his platoon over the objections of its leader, and negligent shooting by pumped-up young Rangers -- some in their first firefight -- who failed to identify their targets as they blasted their way out of a frightening ambush.

The records show Tillman fought bravely and honorably until his last breath. They also show that his superiors exaggerated his actions and invented details as they burnished his legend in public, at the same time suppressing details that might tarnish Tillman's commanders.
Army commanders hurriedly awarded Tillman a posthumous Silver Star for valor and released a nine-paragraph account of his heroism that made no mention of fratricide. A month later the head of the Army's Special Operations Command, Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., called a news conference to disclose in a brief statement that Tillman "probably" died by "friendly fire." Kensinger refused to answer questions.

His commanding officer was ordered to split up his unit...and the cascade of errors began...

By 4 p.m. Uthlaut had a solution, he believed. He could hire a local "jinga truck" driver to tow the Humvee out to a nearby road where the Army could move down and pick it up. In this scenario, Uthlaut told his commanders, he had a choice. He could keep his platoon together until the Humvee had been disposed of, then move to Manah. Or, he could divide his platoon in half, with one "serial" handling the vehicle while the other serial moved immediately to the objective.
The A Company commander, under pressure from his superior to get moving, ordered Uthlaut to split his platoon.
Uthlaut objected. "I would recommend sending our whole platoon up to the highway and then having us go together to the villages," he wrote in an e-mail to the operations center at 5:03 p.m. With sunset approaching, he wrote, even if he split the platoon, the serial that went to Manah would not be able to carry out search operations before dark. And under procedures at the time, he was not supposed to conduct such operations at night.
Uthlaut's commander overruled him. Get half your platoon to Manah right away, he ordered.
But why? Uthlaut asked, as he recalled in a sworn statement. Do you want us to change procedures and conduct sweep operations at night?
No, said the A Company commander.
"So the only reason you want me to split up is so I can get boots on the ground in sector before it gets dark?" an incredulous Uthlaut asked, as he recalled.
Yes, said his commander.

And the errors continued...

Behind them, Serial 2 briefly started down a different road, then stopped. The Afghan tow truck driver said he could not navigate the pitted road. He suggested they turn around and follow the same route that Serial 1 had taken. After Serial 2 passed Manah, the group could circle around to the designated highway. Serial 2's leader, the platoon sergeant, agreed.
There was no radio communication between the two serials about this change in plans.
At 6:34 p.m. Serial 2, with about 17 Rangers in six vehicles, entered the narrow canyon that Serial 1 had just left.

And the confusion of the battlefield took over...

When he heard the first explosion, the platoon sergeant thought one of his vehicles had struck a land mine or a roadside bomb.
They had been in the canyon only a minute. In his machine gun-laden truck, Greg Baker also thought somebody had hit a mine. He and his men jumped out of their vehicle. Baker looked up at the sheer canyon walls. The canyon was five to 10 yards across at its narrowest. "I noticed rocks falling," he recalled in a statement, and "then I saw the second and third mortar rounds hit." He could hear, too, the rattle of enemy small-arms fire.
It was not a bomb -- it was an ambush. Baker and his comrades thought they could see their attackers moving high above them. They began to return fire.
They were trapped in the worst possible place: the kill zone of an ambush. The best way to beat a canyon ambush is to flee the kill zone as fast as possible. But Baker and his men had dismounted their vehicles. Worse, when they scrambled back and tried to move, they discovered that the lumbering Afghan tow truck in their serial was stalled, blocking their exit.
Baker "ran up and grabbed" the truck driver and his Afghan interpreter and "threw them in the truck and started to move," as he recalled. He fired up the canyon walls until he ran out of ammunition. Then he jumped from the tow truck, ran back to his vehicle and reloaded. When the tow truck stopped again, Baker shouted at his own driver to move around it.

Instead, on the sergeant's instructions, Tillman moved down the slope with other Rangers and "into a position where he could engage the enemy," the sergeant recalled. With Tillman were a young Ranger and a bearded Afghan militia fighter who was part of the 2nd Platoon's traveling party.
A Ranger nearby watched Tillman take cover. "I remember not liking his position," he recalled. "I had just seen a red tracer come up over us . . . which immediately struck me as being a M240 tracer. . . . At that time the issue of friendly fire began turning over in my mind."
Tillman and his team fired toward the canyon to suppress the ambush. His brother Kevin was in the canyon.

Several of Serial 2's Rangers said later that as they shot their way out of the canyon, they had no idea where their comrades in Serial 1 might be.

"I saw a figure holding an AK-47, his muzzle was flashing, he wasn't wearing a helmet, and he was prone," Baker recalled in a statement. "I focused only on him. I got tunnel vision."

Baker was aiming at the bearded Afghan militia soldier in Pat Tillman's fire team. He died in a fusillade from Baker's Humvee.

The driver shouted twice: "We have friendlies on top!" Then he screamed "No!" Then he yelled several more times to cease fire, he recalled. "No one heard me."
"We thought the battle was over, so we were relieved."

Up on the ridge, Tillman and Rangers around him began to wave their arms and shout. But they only attracted more fire from Baker's vehicle.
"I saw three to four arms pop up," one of the gunners with Baker recalled. "They did not look like the cease-fire hand-and-arm signal because they were waving side to side." When he and the other gunners spotted the waving arms, their "rate of fire increased."
The young Ranger nearest Tillman on the ridge, whose full name could not be confirmed, saw a Humvee coming down the road. "They made eye contact with us," then began firing, he remembered. Baker's heavily armed vehicle "rolled into our sight and started to unload on top of us. They would work in bursts."

Yeah, these things happen...it isn't nice and neat like the movies...there are no "out of bounds," on the battlefield, and no referees to sort things out when people start shooting. When you start shooting you can't hear anything unless the guy is shouting in your ears, your adrenaline is pumping and as the one guy said, you get tunnel vision...

Even Rangers screw up...

As they pulled alongside the ridge, the gunners poured an undisciplined barrage of hundreds of rounds into the area where Tillman and other members of Serial 1 had taken up positions, Army investigators later concluded. The gunner of the M-2 .50-caliber machine gun in Baker's truck fired every round he had.
The shooters saw only "shapes," a Ranger-appointed investigator wrote, and all of them directed bursts of machine gun fire "without positively identifying the shapes."

How did Tillman actually die...

"We thought the battle was over, so we were relieved, getting up and stretching out, and talking with one another."
Suddenly he saw the attacking Humvee move into "a better position to fire on us." He heard a new machine gun burst and hit the ground, praying, as Pat Tillman fell.

 

[ballen0351]

Mmm! Perhaps Tillman is not the best example here. To be honest, I had never heard of Tillman before this but his story is quite sad. He didn't pass up a huge contract to join up to fight for "anything other than what the flag represented". That is sentimental nonsense. He joined up because, like a lot of people, he was incensed by the events of 911. And, he didn't leave his wife and family to do it, in that sense. Everyone joining up was 'leaving family'. He actually joined up and served with his brother, and he married just before joining up. He lived with his wife during his time in Ranger school.

But what happened next is the really interesting bit. He had signed up with his brother. After basic training he was sent to Iraq. He finished that tour and went to Ranger School so he obviously was enjoying his time in the military. From there, he was sent to Afghanistan. He actually was opposed to the war in Afghanistan. He was serving with his mates and actually opposed what his flag represented if you take it that the flag represented America's involvement in that conflict. Then he was killed and the story becomes really fascinating. Loyalty to the flag? What followed was a barrow load of lies and cover ups. He was killed by his own comrades and there is the question of whether or not he was actually murdered. What a waste of a young man's life. All for what his flag represented?

you have no idea what the flag means if you think the flag represents the Govt involvement in this war or that war or this president or that president. It does not have anything to do with what president or what party runs govt. The flag represents your brother standing next to you, your father and grand father before you and your sons and grand sons after you taht cared enough about each other to stand up and write a black check with their lives to the American PEOPLE. The flag is far more important than politics or Govt. It has nothing to do with the Govt. I could care less about the Govt or the president or Wars. You dont get it, maybe because you didnt serve, or maybe its just your culture, I dont know but to me it means way more then any of that nonsense you posted. Pat Tilliman joined after 911 for exactly what the Flag represents he was pissed off someone came onto our home filed and killed our people the AMERICAN PEOPLE. Thats what the flags all about. Pat Tillman went to Afghanastan to serve with his fellow troops because he loved them and believed in them THATS what the flag represents. If he was murdered or not we will never know but I cant imagine a tight knit group like Army Ranger unit would kill a friend over him not liking the president. I joined the Marine Corps because I knew no matter what my fellow marines had my back. To this day right now if one of my old squad members called me for help Id drop what I was doing and go help them and they would do the same for me even now years later. Thats what the flag is all about. Thats what it represents something bigger then me or you or any one person. Like I said I hope now Im older and have enough restraint when it comes to messing with the flag but I know people that would still snap at the sight. Now in this case of it being flown under the Mexican Flag it wound not shock me because I expect it from people. But in photos of people wiping their butts or pissing on it blowing their nose on it yeah Id be pissed and would not hesitate to snatch the flag away from them. Id except the consequences its part of being a man and standing for what you believe in. It may not bother some and thats fine with me you have your beliefs and I have mine.

 

[billc]

but, wouldn't it have been embarrassing if their poster boy had made his true feelings known?

Yeah, they killed him because of all the people serving, and fighting, who didn't support the war...this one guy had to die...?

 

[Makalakumu]

you cant do both? You cant have a good moral code and a love of community? You cant take pride in being a part of something bigger then yourself? It has nothing to do with the cloth itself its what the cloth represents.

When the ideals represented in the cloth are not represented by the people who wave it, that's a problem. I think it's a problem inherit in the process of using the symbol. If the ideals are represented externally, then pretenders can wave the symbol and ape the motions, getting all of the respect that someone should get by standing true and holding to those ideals internally.

 

[Makalakumu]

Isn't showing respect to the flag showing something about who we are?

How many politicians who wave the flag before everything they do, actually prove they believe in the ideals the flag represents?

 

[billc]

How long did the Tillman cover up last...

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2007/04/017143.php

If you read the fine print in the article linked above, you find that Tillman died on April 22, 2004. His family was told that the cause was friendly fire on May 29, 2004, barely a month later. The same day, the Army publicly announced that friendly fire was the apparent cause.

Yeah, that is some cover up...just over a month...and the Army announced it was freindly fire...after looking at the case...

 

[billc]

A nice breakdown of the Tillman conspiracy film is here...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollyw...view--Anti-Bush-Conspiracy-Just-Doesnt-Add-Up

this point gets to the heart of the left wing silliness involving Pat Tillman's tragic death...

At this point, the question that came to my mind was why would the Pentagon and the Bush Administration voluntarily come forward and uncover their own conspiracy? The film makes no mention of any outside pressure on the Pentagon from the Tillman family or even the media to get the bottom of anything. Meaning that at this point everyone believed the initial report and apparently all the Administration and military had to do to keep us all believing was to keep their mouths shut.

So the question is: If the idea was to use Tillman’s death for nefarious pro-war purposes, why just a few weeks after the memorial service would those with the most to lose from doing so, voluntarily kick over a political hornets’ nest by telling the truth? Why not milk the situation for as long as possible and for as much propaganda as possible, especially with a presidential election just five months off? At the very least, why not save all the political heartache and fallout this revelation was sure to bring (and did) and stall until after Bush is reelected?

 

[ballen0351]

When the ideals represented in the cloth are not represented by the people who wave it, that's a problem. I think it's a problem inherit in the process of using the symbol. If the ideals are represented externally, then pretenders can wave the symbol and ape the motions, getting all of the respect that someone should get by standing true and holding to those ideals internally.

So the black belt in your pic has no value to you? it represents nothing it just holds your Gi closed? its just a piece of cloth?

 

[billc]

Another look at the silly non conspiracy, conspiracy theory about Pat Tillman's death by friendly fire...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollyw...heories-Abound-in-Agenda-Driven-Tillman-Story

 

[billc]

So the black belt in your pic has no value to you? it represents nothing it just holds your Gi closed? its just a piece of cloth?

See Ballen, the black belt is used by disreputable people to cheat other people out of their money and to make the guy who wears it feel superior to all of his students as as he exploits them. It is up to all "martial artists" to opt out of this abusive power structure, because if we don't, we are all morally culpable for the actions of those bad instructors and we all share in the blame for the worst abuses by these so called "black belts." By wearing the same black belt as these guys we are essentially saying it is okay to lie to and cheat people who come to us as students, because that is what those guys do...

 

[billc]

Hmmm...type in British soldiers killed by friendly fire and you get this entire list of friendly fire accidents from the war...

https://www.google.com/search?q=fre...oldiers&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

I typed that particular search in because I remembered, an Illinois National Guard pilot had been brought up on charges for accidentally killing British soldiers. that was way back and might have been from the first gulf war...

So yes, it does happen all he time...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...lls-British-woman-soldier-in-Afghanistan.html

Corporal Channing Day, 25, from 3 Medical Regiment, became the third British woman soldier to die in the country since the conflict began more than a decade ago.
One of her two sisters, Laken, said last night: "I am the proudest sister ever, her legacy will live on."
Cpl Day, from Comber, near Belfast, was killed with Cpl David O'Connor, 27, a Royal Marine from 40 Commando, after her unit shot an Afghan policeman by mistake, according to local police.
The policeman, who was not wearing his uniform and was carrying a gun, went to wash his hands in preparation for prayers about 50 yards from his checkpoint. Cpl Day's unit mistook him for a Taliban insurgent and opened fire, local officials said.
Farid Ahmad Farhang, a spokesman for the provincial police, said another British unit on patrol nearby assumed it was under attack and fired back, killing Cpl Channing and the Royal Marine. The circumstances surrounding the deaths remained confused last night, however. Other reports claimed that the dead policeman's colleagues returned fire, while British officers were also investigating the possibility that the patrol was deliberately attacked by the policemen.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/aug/24/afghanistan.military

Three British soldiers have been killed in an apparent friendly fire incident involving US aircraft in southern Afghanistan, the Ministry of Defence said today.
Two other soldiers were injured in the incident, which occurred yesterday at 6.30pm local time (3pm BST).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ult-mistaken-beliefs-cumulative-failures.html

A US helicopter gunship killed a British soldier in Afghanistan after being ordered to attack by officers who had misinterpreted grainy images from a drone aircraft.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eliefs-cumulative-failures.html#ixzz2azcsLwsu

Here is a look at friendly fire from the British military tradition...

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/3774#.Uf4iesu9KK0

These quips rest upon the twin assumptions that ‘friendly fire’ is a relatively new phenomenon and that only the Americans are guilty of it. Both preconceptions are untrue. What is more, Britain, an historically warfaring nation, has in the past been one of the worst offenders of killing its own in ‘friendly fire’ incidents.

Much worse was to come in the Second World War. Indeed, the very first planes to be shot down by Spitfires in that conflict were two Hawker Hurricanes, mistaken for Messerschmitt 109s. In 1939 the submarine HMS Triton sank fellow Royal Navy submarine HMS Oxley, mistaking it for a U-boat. In 1941, HMS Sheffield, misidentified as the Bismarck, was torpedoed by Fleet Air Arm. The following year, the Polish submarine ORP Jastrzab was sunk by HMS St Albans and HMS Seagull. In 1944 a British flotilla was attacked by RAF Hawker Typhoons near Le Havre, and one, HMS Salamander, incurred such damage that it had to be scuppered.
Let us also not forget the most ghastly incident of friendly fire of the Second World War, when on 3 May 1945, only a day before the German army capitulated, the RAF bombed three ships moored in Lübeck Harbour, which contained 7,000 French Jews and Russian and Polish PoWs. Many of those lucky enough to escape to dry land were murdered by the SS, and only 350 victims of RAF incompetence made it home alive.

British soldiers have been shooting each other in my lifetime, too. In the 1982 Falklands War, HMS Cardiff shot down AAC Gazelle, while in the brief conflict the 3rd Battalion of the Paras exchanged gunfire and artillery fire with Army Companies A and C in one night-time episode, leading to eight casualties. Elsewhere, a UK Special Boat Service Commando was killed in firefight with UK Special Air Service Commandos.

Soooo...no conspiracy...just the tragic accident that happens in war...

 

[billc]

If you still doubt friendly fire accidents happen every day, ask a soldier why they will use the term "danger close" when calling in artillery or air strikes.

 

[K-man]

you have no idea what the flag means if you think the flag represents the Govt involvement in this war or that war or this president or that president. It does not have anything to do with what president or what party runs govt. The flag represents your brother standing next to you, your father and grand father before you and your sons and grand sons after you taht cared enough about each other to stand up and write a black check with their lives to the American PEOPLE. The flag is far more important than politics or Govt. It has nothing to do with the Govt. I could care less about the Govt or the president or Wars. You dont get it, maybe because you didnt serve, or maybe its just your culture, I dont know but to me it means way more then any of that nonsense you posted. Pat Tilliman joined after 911 for exactly what the Flag represents he was pissed off someone came onto our home filed and killed our people the AMERICAN PEOPLE. Thats what the flags all about. Pat Tillman went to Afghanastan to serve with his fellow troops because he loved them and believed in them THATS what the flag represents. If he was murdered or not we will never know but I cant imagine a tight knit group like Army Ranger unit would kill a friend over him not liking the president. I joined the Marine Corps because I knew no matter what my fellow marines had my back. To this day right now if one of my old squad members called me for help Id drop what I was doing and go help them and they would do the same for me even now years later. Thats what the flag is all about. Thats what it represents something bigger then me or you or any one person. Like I said I hope now Im older and have enough restraint when it comes to messing with the flag but I know people that would still snap at the sight. Now in this case of it being flown under the Mexican Flag it wound not shock me because I expect it from people. But in photos of people wiping their butts or pissing on it blowing their nose on it yeah Id be pissed and would not hesitate to snatch the flag away from them. Id except the consequences its part of being a man and standing for what you believe in. It may not bother some and thats fine with me you have your beliefs and I have mine.

I know perfectly what the flag means. What you are attributing to the flag is what Australians call mateship. We stick by our mates and that has nothing to do with the flag. My comments were directed at Billc and if you read his post it was him linking the flag to actions.

Billc: They may fight for the man next to them...but the reason they are fighting with the man next to them has a strong tendency to be for the values represented by our flag. Ask the vets here, especially the combat arms, in particular the infantry, and see what they have to say why they joined up...after all, they didn't know that guy next to them until they signed up...

Billc: That football player...I don't know his name...the one who passed up a 3 million dollar contract, with all that goes with being a professional football player, to go into the Airborne Rangers...do you think he did that for anything other than what the flag represented...especially leaving his wife and family to do it...

And sorry, would you care to elaborate on the 'nonsense' I posted? The flag represents whatever you want it to represent. By itself it represents nothing.

"The flag represents your brother standing next to you, your father and grand father before you and your sons and grand sons after you taht cared enough about each other to stand up and write a black check with their lives to the American PEOPLE."

Really?

I could pick our post apart because it is full of statements that cannot be verified and are purely opinion much of which flies in the face of known facts. It just isn't worth the effort. :asian:

 

[ballen0351]

I know perfectly what the flag means. What you are attributing to the flag is what Australians call mateship. We stick by our mates and that has nothing to do with the flag. My comments were directed at Billc and if you read his post it was him linking the flag to actions.





And sorry, would you care to elaborate on the 'nonsense' I posted? The flag represents whatever you want it to represent. By itself it represents nothing.

"The flag represents your brother standing next to you, your father and grand father before you and your sons and grand sons after you taht cared enough about each other to stand up and write a black check with their lives to the American PEOPLE."

Really?

I could pick our post apart because it is full of statements that cannot be verified and are purely opinion much of which flies in the face of known facts. It just isn't worth the effort. :asian:

Like I said you never served so you don't get it. The flag means nothing to you that's fine i dont care and have no desire to change your opinion but it means a lot to me and lots of people like me. You can't tell me the flag is meaningless when it has meaning to me.


And the nonsense was you commenting on pat Tillman's reasons for why he served you didn't even know his name yesterday but you read one Wikipedia page on him and your an expert all of a sudden.

 

[K-man]

Like I said you never served so you don't get it. The flag means nothing to you that's fine i dont care and have no desire to change your opinion but it means a lot to me and lots of people like me. You can't tell me the flag is meaningless when it has meaning to me.


And the nonsense was you commenting on pat Tillman's reasons for why he served you didn't even know his name yesterday but you read one Wikipedia page on him and your an expert all of a sudden.

Feel free to tell me where I said the flag was 'meaningless'. It means different things to different people. My flag means a lot to me too. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether I served or not.

As to Tillman. All I said was it was a poor choice as an example. I don't claim to be an expert. Please show me where I claimed that. Billc claimed Tillman joined up because of the flag. That is nonsense. No one knows his motive for joining and he can't tell anyone either, especially as his diaries went missing. Billc claimed this sort of thing happens all the time.well he might be right in that US troops have a terrible record in that area. But normally those mistakes are admitted to and everyone moves on. You normally don't have the lies and coverup that occurred in this situation.

New Evidence Clearly Indicates Pat Tillman Was Executed
Army medical examiners concluded Tillman was shot three times in the head from just 10 yards away, no evidence of "friendly fire" damage at scene, Army attorneys congratulated each other on cover-up, Wesley Clark concludes "orders came from the very top" to murder pro-football star because he was about to become an anti-war political icon
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2007/270707tillmanexecuted.htm

Pat Tillman, a 25 year old defensive back for the Arizona Cardinals gave up a lucrative NFL career to be deployed in Afghanistan after the events of 9/11. Even though his intentions were courageous and admirable, the fact is, Tillman was duped into this illegal war by the Bush administration that is ultimately run by the global elite who want to establish a New World Order. If you doubt this, let’s look at some quotes from Tillman’s family.
http://theconspiracyzone.podcastpeople.com/posts/39815

The notion of a heroic death while fighting the enemy quickly yielded to a concession that Tillman was killed by friendly fire after his convoy had been split into two groups while going through Taliban territory in Afghanistan. Those who twisted the truth to of the Tillman narrative then tried to cover it up, making the situation worse.


But none of it changes the fact that Tillman served, and Tillman died. Soldiers can die in a wide range of ways. Whether it’s from enemy fire, friendly fire, a plane crash, a helicopter crash, or some other accident away from the battlefield, joining the military means submitting to broad, vague, and ever-present risk of injury and death.


Tillman knew that when he signed up. The details of how he died and how it was concealed, while relevant to improving procedures for owning up to mistakes and not attempting to spin stories for recruiting or P.R. purposes, don’t change the fact that Tillman served, and Tillman died.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...mans-death-dont-change-the-sacrifice-he-made/

WHY WOULD SOLDIERS WITH NOTHING TO HIDE, WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN AN ACCIDENTAL SHOOTING burn Tillman's uniform--and his body armor?

After the shooting, the Rangers destroyed evidence that would be considered critical in any criminal case, the records show. They burned Corporal Tillman's uniform and his body armor. Months later, the Rangers involved said they did not intend to destroy evidence. "It was a hygiene issue,"

TILLMAN WAS ASSASSINATED
He was shot in the forehead, THREE TIMES, and the "official" story, which changes faster than the wind, is that he was shot with an M-16.

THIS IS UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE.
On fully automatic, from just about any distance, almost anyone with an M-16 can hit a solid target three times in a close proximity. But the FIRST bullet out of an M-16 into Tillman's head wouldn't have left anything else for the other two bullets to hit.

Three different people firing ANY type of weapon would not have been able to make such a pattern in his FOREHEAD, so the three bullets had to have been fired from ONE weapon, by ONE person. I have no idea what type of weapon in a war zone, other than a pistol OR a sniper's rifle, could have made such a pattern.
http://rense.com/general77/assassination.htm

I even looked at Bill's favourite

While the tragic death of Tillman and the pathetic cover up of the events surrounding that loss has been well documented, we have too often lost sight of the man who willingly gave it all up for his country.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Sports/2013/05/27/On-Memorial-Day-Remember-Pat-Tillman

It was an inspiring story of selfless heroism: A stubbornly patriotic football player walked away from fame and a multimillion-dollar contract when he joined the Army immediately after Sept. 11, 2001. It was also a story whose tragic ending brought a nation to tears and inflamed wartime passions: Spc. Pat Tillman had charged up a hill in Afghanistan under "devastating enemy fire," according to his Silver Star citation, and was killed defending his fellow Rangers.


The problem with the story was that much of it just wasn't true.


Shortly after Tillman's death in an April 22, 2004, firefight, documents show that Army officials learned that he'd accidentally been killed by fellow Rangers. But those details were withheld from the public — and Tillman's family — until well after the soldier's highly publicized May 3 memorial service. In the meantime, he was built up by the Army and in the media as a war hero in a campaign that played out like a recruiter's dream.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/18/entertainment/la-et-tillman-story-20100818

Pat Tillman was a popular professional football player before deciding to enlist. A tall and imposing 25-year-old, Tillman was on his second tour when he was pronounced dead. As the news had brought such attention to this man who left a multi-million-dollar contract with the Arizona Cardinals to fight for his country, his death was a project for careful PR. Military publicity transformed this already principled and courageous figure into a hero--and they did this by rewriting the details of his death. Armed with a massive box of records, Dannie Tillman, Pat's mother, uncovered a considerable revision of history. Pat, the victim of friendly fire, was killed during an awkwardly plotted expedition by his own troops, many of whom reported they were just eager to be in a firefight. Pat Tillman was a public figure because of his career, and his decision to enlist put him in the public eye for new reasons, so it's easy to see why his loss, a national tragedy by its very nature, could not be reported as an accident besot with incompetence.
http://www.documentary.org/magazine/legend-pat-tillman-deconstructing-military-myth

No mate, I didn't just read Wikipaedia. There are hundreds of pages out there and they all say the same thing! The guy died under extremely suspicious circumstances and you as a LEO should be able to see that. I read about it because I was intrigued. It's a bit like the video put out by Wikileaks. I wouldn't have believed that either if I hadn't seen it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FTc97BR_wQs&desktop_uri=/watch?v=FTc97BR_wQs

Please tell me that didn't happen!
Now I don't know what to believe from US officials. As far as I can tell they will lie and try to cover up anything given half a chance.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I can read and I do question. :asian:

 

[billc]

As to Tillman's motiviations for joining, the review of the film looks at that...because the film pretended there wasn't any information about that...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollyw...heories-Abound-in-Agenda-Driven-Tillman-Story

For example, they discuss how there is supposedly no evidence of any ambush against the second element at all even as the camera pans over witness statements where one of the Rangers states that he saw Taliban and witnessed muzzle flashes. Sorry, guys, but it’s still evidence even if you don’t like what it proves.

Billc claimed Tillman joined up because of the flag. That is nonsense. No one knows his motive for joining and he can't tell anyone either,

From the film...

They claim that Tillman refused to speak of his motives for joining the military, but they then dismiss as some sort of invasion of Tillman’s privacy the taped interview Tillman gave on September 12, 2001 in which he expressed admiration for American fighting men and expressed concern that he himself was not making any contribution (he enlisted a few months later).

They note (twice) that Tillman read at least one book by the inexorable Noam Chomsky, as if that made him a convert to Chomsky’s dictator-loving leftist idiocy any more than his study of the Bible and other religious works meant he believed in God, which he allegedly did not. They portray him as alienated by the “illegal” war in Iraq, yet even after allegedly being offered a chance to get out of his enlistment early to return to the NFL he instead chose to accompany his battalion on the fateful deployment to Afghanistan. Even in death, Tillman refuses to conform to others’ expectations – especially those of these agenda documentarians.

Initially, the family was told Tillman died heroically charging the enemy. Tillman was issued a Silver Star almost immediately. Then, about a month later, but after a memorial ceremony where Tillman’s heroism was praised, they were told he was killed by friendly fire. This demonstrates why it is so critical not to discuss such matters until all the facts are absolutely clear and documented – that is the least America owes the families of the fallen.

Again, the conspiracy only lasted 37 days...about the time it took to investigate what actually happened...and the people in charge of this conspiracy...outed the conspiracy all on their own...when they didn't have to...since everyone believed the story about his heroism...and outing the story would simply embarass the military and the war effort...and they told the truth anyway...some conspirators...

Again, from the John Nolte piece...

At this point, the question that came to my mind was why would the Pentagon and the Bush Administration voluntarily come forward and uncover their own conspiracy? The film makes no mention of any outside pressure on the Pentagon from the Tillman family or even the media to get the bottom of anything. Meaning that at this point everyone believed the initial report and apparently all the Administration and military had to do to keep us all believing was to keep their mouths shut.

So the question is: If the idea was to use Tillman’s death for nefarious pro-war purposes, why just a few weeks after the memorial service would those with the most to lose from doing so, voluntarily kick over a political hornets’ nest by telling the truth? Why not milk the situation for as long as possible and for as much propaganda as possible, especially with a presidential election just five months off? At the very least, why not save all the political heartache and fallout this revelation was sure to bring (and did) and stall until after Bush is reelected?

And as to the "objective" look at the incident...

New Evidence Clearly Indicates Pat Tillman Was Executed
Army medical examiners concluded Tillman was shot three times in the head from just 10 yards away, no evidence of "friendly fire" damage at scene, Army attorneys congratulated each other on cover-up, Wesley Clark concludes "orders came from the very top" to murder pro-football star because he was about to become an anti-war political icon

Hmmm...no evidence of "Friendly fire at the scene," is that guy serious...how about the wounded and the dead...

In the village behind Tillman's ridge, Uthlaut and his radio operator had been pinned down by the streams of fire pouring from Baker's vehicle. Both were eventually hit by what they assumed was machine gun fire.

Nine minutes later, a regiment log shows, the platoon requested a medevac helicopter and reported two soldiers killed in action. One was the Afghan militia soldier. The other was Pat Tillman, age 27.

First, Wesley Clark is a tool...second, Pat Tillman, the other two wounded guys and the dead Afghani militia guy would sort of indicate the "friendly fire," incident took place...

TILLMAN WAS ASSASSINATED
He was shot in the forehead, THREE TIMES, and the "official" story, which changes faster than the wind, is that he was shot with an M-16.

THIS IS UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE.
On fully automatic, from just about any distance, almost anyone with an M-16 can hit a solid target three times in a close proximity. But the FIRST bullet out of an M-16 into Tillman's head wouldn't have left anything else for the other two bullets to hit.

Three different people firing ANY type of weapon would not have been able to make such a pattern in his FOREHEAD, so the three bullets had to have been fired from ONE weapon, by ONE person. I have no idea what type of weapon in a war zone, other than a pistol OR a sniper's rifle, could have made such a pattern.

The official story hasn't been changing like the wind, the guys in his immediate chain made a bad decision to try to hide the freindly fire...something that can end a military career for the guys in charge...and telling his guys to not tell his family at the funeral...since the army was investigating what happened that makes sense...doesn't it...considering 37 days after the memorial they came out with what actually happened...when they didn't have to.

The military doesn't use the M16 anymore, the rifle I used had fully automatic fire, but they changed that to three settings, safe, one shot and a 3 round burst...so yeah, he could have been shot 3 times... and the 5.56 isn't exactly the biggest round around...

Considering that if you read the actual account of what happened...in the Washington Post, as opposed to the lefty nutter sites, a lot of rounds were being fired at Tillman's position, he wasn't the only one killed or wounded at the scene.

and this...

After the shooting, the Rangers destroyed evidence that would be considered critical in any criminal case, the records show. They burned Corporal Tillman's uniform and his body armor. Months later, the Rangers involved said they did not intend to destroy evidence. "It was a hygiene issue,"

I don't know what the actual protocol is for equipment covered in blood and other internal body parts, in a war zone, in a mountain area in an active combat area...not a crime scene at the time...but could they have been trying to hide their screw up...sure...but after the fact of a freindly fire accident...just like some civilians who run people over in their cars try to hide the evidence so they don't face the penalty...

Besides...freindly fire incidents happen...it wouldn't even be a criminal case considering what actually happened anyway.

 

[billc]

Yes...of all the anti-war vets coming out of the Iraq and Afghanistan theaters of operation...Pat Tillman had to die...and they used guys in his own Ranger Company...in a situation they couldn't control...with the guys brother in the same unit...who they apparently allowed to live...so he could come home and do the same thing his famous dead brother was supposedly killed for...

And then 37 days after the funeral they came out with the truth about the freindly fire incident...on their own...when no one questioned the initial report and they had obviously gotten away with this alleged conspiracy they, outed the incident on their own...and with an election 5 months away...yeah, some conspiracy...

This is why I never pay attention to conspiracy theories...they are just silly...

 

[billc]

And the 3 bullets to the head...

From wikipedia...

One investigation of the autopsy report and photographs by two forensic pathologists in November 2006 concluded that Tillman was most likely killed as a result of fire from a M249 light machine gun. The M249 uses the same ammunition as the M16 rifle and M4 carbine, but is capable of greater accuracy during higher rates of fire. This would allow a competent user to place three bullets within a several-inch target from forty or fifty yards away more easily, even from a moving vehicle.[SUP][3][/SUP]

And the vehicles weren't moving and they were pouring rounds on Tillman's position...a whole bunch of guys and at least one M249, a .50 caliber...and at least one guy fired his machine gun dry...and Tillman and the other guys exposed themselves to the incoming fire, thinking the shooting was over...

As to the 5.56 and the 3 rounds...from wikipedia...

The M249 provides accuracy approaching that of a rifle, combined with the sustained volume of fire of a machine gun.

The lethality of the 5.56 mm ammunition has been called into question by reports of enemy soldiers still firing after being hit multiple times.[SUP][40][/SUP]

Yes, spraying a position with automatic fire could place 3 rounds in the same target very easily, especially when several guys are all shooting at the same place...at least one with a machine gun that fires the same caliber as the standard rifle the other guys use...

 

[Tgace]

The Tillman assassination story is probably the most idiotic theory I have seen to date.....