Home Made Warriors and Online Black Belts

[drewtoby]

We are living in a digital age, and this is starting to become seen as more of an option in recent times. Why go to a dojo if you can be certified online, or why pay to train if you can learn through videos? It seems that Bruce Lee's theories are starting to be put into effect. People can now effortlessly sift through thousands of techniques and choose the ones that work best. I'm sure Bruce Lee would be happy :bangahead:. Or would he? Was his advice meant only for experienced martial artists, or everyone including the average Joe?


So far I have met two "Home Made Warriors" :mst:, the kind that train at home and don't claim to be certified (not online black belts). One is, believe it or not, somewhat knowledgeable, the other one not so much. However, there is a big difference between them. The knowledgeable one has family and friends in martial arts, spars with people, exchanges techniques, and knows his own physical limits. He is also somewhat open minded as well, and has even heard of Hapkido before (although he was not sure what all it included until we started talking). He is also looking to get into a gym or dojo asap, but currently lacks schedule stability and finances to join. The other one only trained on the bag and watched videos, and needless to say this has only inflated his ego (and became extremely closed minded towards the martial art world).


I have yet to meet an online certified black belt (outside of a forum) though :waah:


Do you think that online training, home made warriors, and black belts earned online will begin to rise in popularity over the years? After all, Mcdojos still flourish :barf:


And have you ever met anyone that falls into these categories? If so, please tell us their story (or yours if you are one)!


And is this good, bad, or neutral for martial arts as a whole?

 

[Xue Sheng]

And is this good, bad, or neutral for martial arts as a whole?

Had to actually follow what you are trying to say or ask here but it you are asking about online training the answer is......Bad

 

[Dirty Dog]

Until we develop virtual reality to a point where it is indistinguishable from real reality (as odd as that sounds) then it will remain a predominantly bad thing.

If a person already has a solid grounding in a system, they may be able to learn related material from books/videos/electro shock. My style of TKD is Moo Duk Kwan and we use the Palgwae poomsae. I originally learned the Taegeuks from the KKW video series. I then performed them for a KKW 4th Dan, who recommended some very minor changes.

On the other hand, I'm sure that if I tried to learn something totally unrelated to my training - i.e. Wing Chun - that I'd make a total hash of it, and I'd have to UNlearn it all before I could really learn WC.

 

[drewtoby]

Had to actually follow what you are trying to say or ask here but it you are asking about online training the answer is......Bad

I know I'm all over the place, as I think there is a lot to this subject. Do you think that home training will begin to rise over the years? Would Bruce Lee agree with this? Anyone meet someone that home trains?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I doubt Bruce Lee would agree with this, but it is a nice sales pitch. If you train CMA you already do home training, meaning you train with your shifu 1 or 2 times a week and you train what he taught you at home. Same with Bruce Lee and JKD JF people. They train with the teacher a few times a week and then train at home as well. But the key thing is "THEY TRAIN WITH THE TEACHER", meaning in person, not by video, not form a book but in person where he can adjust. correct, throw, knock down and hit you of need be

This topic has been done to death here, and if you look around you will see it and for the most part you always get the same answers.

I have wasted enough time on the done to death topic.

 

[MJS]

We are living in a digital age, and this is starting to become seen as more of an option in recent times. Why go to a dojo if you can be certified online, or why pay to train if you can learn through videos? It seems that Bruce Lee's theories are starting to be put into effect. People can now effortlessly sift through thousands of techniques and choose the ones that work best. I'm sure Bruce Lee would be happy :bangahead:. Or would he? Was his advice meant only for experienced martial artists, or everyone including the average Joe?


So far I have met two "Home Made Warriors" :mst:, the kind that train at home and don't claim to be certified (not online black belts). One is, believe it or not, somewhat knowledgeable, the other one not so much. However, there is a big difference between them. The knowledgeable one has family and friends in martial arts, spars with people, exchanges techniques, and knows his own physical limits. He is also somewhat open minded as well, and has even heard of Hapkido before (although he was not sure what all it included until we started talking). He is also looking to get into a gym or dojo asap, but currently lacks schedule stability and finances to join. The other one only trained on the bag and watched videos, and needless to say this has only inflated his ego (and became extremely closed minded towards the martial art world).


I have yet to meet an online certified black belt (outside of a forum) though :waah:


Do you think that online training, home made warriors, and black belts earned online will begin to rise in popularity over the years? After all, Mcdojos still flourish :barf:


And have you ever met anyone that falls into these categories? If so, please tell us their story (or yours if you are one)!


And is this good, bad, or neutral for martial arts as a whole?

Sadly, there're a lot of lazy people out there, and they just don't want to put in the blood, sweat and tears, and actually train under a live teacher. Yes, the McDojo and distance learning will continue to thrive, as long as there are people that fall victim to it. As a reference tool...sure, video is a good thing. As a sole learning tool...no, sorry, but to be blunt, it sucks. Yes, I know, I know...some will, and have said, "But I live in a small town, and there's no good schools around or a school I'm interested in, so I have to use DL training." Umm....no you don't. There're other routes those people can take, but the majority of the time, they don't....because they're looking for something quick and easy. Lets see....train in your own home, when you want, or....drive 30miles 1 way a few times a week or even a month, and get some training in. Hmmm.....

 

[ks - learning to fly]

I met someone once who 'claimed' to be a 2nd Degree, but also said he didn't need an instructor and he trained himself - at home.. :BSmeter:

I'm siding with the comments previous to mine in that:

As long as people fall victim to the McDojo system, they'll be in business

If there's no true grounding in the martial arts and the belt was purchased on amazon - that belt is worthless

Without in-person training with a live Instructor - and the accompanying blood, sweat and tears - there is no HONOR

 

[GaryR]

When we are talking about the same material-training online/video can never be as effective as in person, period. However, if your choice is a local McDojo vs. world-class instruction via video/net, then you are probably better off finding a training partner, and teaching yourselves.

To me rank is not important be it in-person, or online. Brick and morter schools hand out belts like candy, and use them as a revenue source as well.

The more information and video out there the better for the community as a whole. People can expand their horizons beyond what is physically available to them as instruction.

I've met countless students who have trained via-video prior to in-person training, it's a mixed bag, just as in a real, live class. Some students are talented enough, and/or work hard enough to be successful that way. The difference is that if the student doesn't have a partner to give realistic attacks/feedback, then a false sense of skill can endure.


G

 

[Kframe]

Im in a unique position. I have a back ground in boxing and eclectic mma. My former teacher taught me many things out side the mma/boxing/kickboxing arena.

My wife and sister in law has asked me to teach them basic kick boxing and essentially anything else I know. Of course this is part time thing as ill be starting in BBT soon. Now here is were I think distance learning dvds come handy. I know boxing and kick boxing, I know I can teach them. I don't need dvds for that, im surrounded by fantastic boxers. What I will be using the distance learning dvds is to help me polish the tools I was taught but not given as much time in as I would like. Such as all the interceptions and parries I was taught that evidently came from other sources.

For me, I agree it is a good supplement. I couldn't teach my family if I didn't have a background in something similar. I already have a good foundation in striking moving and deflecting. That's the key. You already have to know what your doin


For instance here is the place im going to be getting my dvd set from. http://jkdlessons.com/ They are the online lesson plans for this organization. http://chinatownjkd.org/ Here is there forum and there lvl 1 lesson plan.http://www.jkdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=3697

Now based on what I have learned of the system, the lvl 1 step has a hell of a lot of boxing in it and slowly builds off of it with new techniques. Looking at the lvl 1 progression it will be easy to learn for me. Its a basic punch and a lateral parry make up lesson 1. The kicks in lvl 1 are basic and I already know them. The chi sau I have already done, the boxing progression wont be any thing new. Many of the techniques I have already done thanks to my eclectic teacher.

Ill say this if it were not for the fact that I knew a lot of there system already, this would be a total waste for me. My coach always said BL was his inspiration, now I see were many of the things I was taught came from. Most of them are contained in that lvl 1 out line.

You cant rely on this for sole teaching. I can only do this because I have a background in it. I wouldn't advise it in any other circumstance.

 

[Kframe]

Ill throw this in as well. That organization also will come out for private teachings with Jeremy Lynch and Tim Tackett. There cost is not unreasonable. So its not like we wont receive correction. They also offer many workshops I plan on attending s well.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We are living in a digital age, and this is starting to become seen as more of an option in recent times. Why go to a dojo if you can be certified online, or why pay to train if you can learn through videos? It seems that Bruce Lee's theories are starting to be put into effect. People can now effortlessly sift through thousands of techniques and choose the ones that work best. I'm sure Bruce Lee would be happy :bangahead:. Or would he? Was his advice meant only for experienced martial artists, or everyone including the average Joe?

Bruce Lee gave a lot of advice, but much of it was directed to people who already had experience. You cannot just follow his advice without formal training because you'll have no frame of reference. When he said to keep what works and discard what does not, he said it with the idea that the person receiving the advice had already been trained enough to actually know the difference.

So far I have met two "Home Made Warriors" :mst:, the kind that train at home and don't claim to be certified (not online black belts). One is, believe it or not, somewhat knowledgeable, the other one not so much. However, there is a big difference between them. The knowledgeable one has family and friends in martial arts, spars with people, exchanges techniques, and knows his own physical limits. He is also somewhat open minded as well, and has even heard of Hapkido before (although he was not sure what all it included until we started talking). He is also looking to get into a gym or dojo asap, but currently lacks schedule stability and finances to join. The other one only trained on the bag and watched videos, and needless to say this has only inflated his ego (and became extremely closed minded towards the martial art world).


I have yet to meet an online certified black belt (outside of a forum) though :waah:

Lots of people are knowledgeable. Give me a week of devouring information on JKD and I can sound very authoritative to someone who doesn't know a thing about it. Of course, if I talk to an actual practitioner, I probably won't sound quite so in the know.

Do you think that online training, home made warriors, and black belts earned online will begin to rise in popularity over the years? After all, Mcdojos still flourish :barf:

I think that it's here to stay. Even the Gracies have jumped on the bandwagon. I won't say that it has no value; there have been several discussions on the topic and I do believe that a very visually oriented person can probably learn some arts online or via video with no prior training. These people are the exceptions, and likely fairly uncommon exceptions. And they'll be far less skilled learning in that format than they would with an actual instructor.

For a grappling art, in my opinion, online/video training is worthless without prior relevant experience. And I include hapkido in that.

And have you ever met anyone that falls into these categories? If so, please tell us their story (or yours if you are one)!

I've met both. Online certified blackbelts who already had a lot of relevant experience, usually in the same art, look pretty decent. But all they really did was reformat what they already knew. I know a guy with second or third dan in combat hapkido. He ditched his former school due to some personality issue and jumped on the CHKD bandwagon. The thing was, he didn't actually learn anything new from the DVDs. He already had a second or third dan in actual hapkido and simply went through the motions according to how they had the curriculum set up. He happened to like it, and maybe it's really good. But he didn't get his skill from the videos.

I met another guy who learned all of his swordsmanship from watching anime and practicing in his back yard. He was very coordinated and athletic, but his swordsmanship was atrocious. Anyone with a year of Haidong Gumdo would look like Musashi by comparison.

And is this good, bad, or neutral for martial arts as a whole?

As I said, it's here to stay.

For experienced people who don't feel like being locked into a traditional training environment for one reason or another (distaste of contracts, relocation to an area with no school, or just wanting to try something different, tech savvy), I'd say that it's probably not bad.

For new people who want to start from scratch, I'd say that it's probably not good.

Martial arts as a whole? Honestly, there are bigger issues plaguing the martial arts than this. Brick and mortar schools that offer a lower quality of training than that of online/DVD training while gouging customers far more deeply abound. Also, many people go to brick and mortar schools for things that cannot be offered in an online or video format. Social aspects, fellowship, competition, and anything involving children's programs all require an actual building. Because of that, online/video training will only be popular with a small demographic who are drawn that kind of format.

 

[REY MISTERIO]

the time will come when you ll be able to just download the skills into your brain like the movie matrix

 

[Zero]

the time will come when you ll be able to just download the skills into your brain like the movie matrix

yes, that may well be, it will be awesome - you will know exactly how to execute that high round house kick and as you execute it perfectly you will get to simultaneously enjoy the searing pain as your groin muscles tear and your hamstrings pop, having not spent the months/years developing to carry out such moves.

 

[Hyoho]

Its OK if you use the net like we use books. But that's about as far as it goes. Even less further than those pieces of paper people hold to say they are qualified or new coloured stripes on a belt.

A 200 pounder that squeezes out from his comp desk to go buy more snacks and smoothies had better be careful who he tells that he's an online black belt. Plenty out there that might want to take him up on it.

 

[Zero]

Its OK if you use the net like we use books. But that's about as far as it goes. Even less further than those pieces of paper people hold to say they are qualified or new coloured stripes on a belt.

A 200 pounder that squeezes out from his comp desk to go buy more snacks and smoothies had better be careful who he tells that he's an online black belt. Plenty out there that might want to take him up on it.

I think if he mentioned the online aspect the most he would likely be subject to is abject ridicule : ) Street thugs and ne'er-do-wells would be like "dude, I don't want to be seen brawling with an "online BB", embarrassing, think of my cred!!"

 

[Cirdan]

Yea traditional training is such a waste, I can get a 2nd Dan in Tekken Tag Team Tournament just after 90 minutes with the playstation. It is the future i tell you

 

[simplicity]

I doubt Bruce Lee would agree with this, but it is a nice sales pitch. If you train CMA you already do home training, meaning you train with your shifu 1 or 2 times a week and you train what he taught you at home. Same with Bruce Lee and JKD JF people. They train with the teacher a few times a week and then train at home as well. But the key thing is "THEY TRAIN WITH THE TEACHER", meaning in person, not by video, not form a book but in person where he can adjust. correct, throw, knock down and hit you of need be

This topic has been done to death here, and if you look around you will see it and for the most part you always get the same answers.

I have wasted enough time on the done to death topic.

I'm a 2nd Generation Jeet Kune Do Full Instructor, been running a school for almost two decades... I had to train with BLS in person to achieve this.... I don't believe in this "online training BS" nor "organized despair"... In person is the only way to transfer neuro response energy, as I always say... Not everyone does this today and it shows in the students... BL was very much into distance learning, but in person... Not through "organized despair" and he also said to BLS to keep the quality high & the quantity low... Something to think about!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm a 2nd Generation Jeet Kune Do Full Instructor, been running a school for almost two decades... I had to train with BLS in person to achieve this.... I don't believe in this "online training BS" nor "organized despair"... In person is the only way to transfer neuro response energy, as I always say... Not everyone does this today and it shows in the students... BL was very much into distance learning, but in person... Not through "organized despair" and he also said to BLS to keep the quality high & the quantity low... Something to think about!

I don't disagree with you, but I have two questions about your post.

How do you do distance learning in person? The very concept precludes it.
Secondly, what is "organized despair?"

Thank you

 

[MJS]

I don't disagree with you, but I have two questions about your post.

How do you do distance learning in person? The very concept precludes it.
Secondly, what is "organized despair?"

Thank you

LOL...I had to do a double take myself. After reading that again, I took it as someone making the trip to see their teacher. For example: I'm in Ct, you're in MD. If you were my teacher, I'd be making the trip to train with you, say twice a month. There's a distance between us, but at least I'd be training with you, live and in person.

If this is in fact what simplicity meant, this is also something that I suggested as well.

 

[Tgace]

I find the mere association of martial arts practice with being a "warrior" problematic....