Hitting women

[Cette Hamster La]

For verbal altercations I stick to a strict de escalation and if that doesn't work at very least never throwing the first blow.

For the rest I'm not a believer in chivalry but that's just because I use a unisex method of determining who needs help. You open the door or help out whoever actually needs it and likewise you don't hurt someone clearly less capable than you if you can just walk away or restrain. This goes for a man or a woman. Likewise anyone who I feel has the ability and intent to do serious bodily harm gets the same levels of response.

I'll admit I know very few women that are going to require that unless armed but just dismissing it as a concept out of hand seems to be setting yourself up for trouble.

 

[K-man]

How much MA training did Lorena Bobbitt have?

Probably very little, but she sure knew how to sharpen scissors!!

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

Similar to Xinglu, I didn't actually read any domestic violence aspect in the original post, but saw a variety of situations that could have been discussed. So, to that end, let's look at some of those...

To begin with, we'll look at the domestic situation. In the OP, we were presented with a few timing options: When being yelled at (verbally abused), when being struck (physically abused), and when both or either continue after requests/insistance to stop (fair warning). For a domestic situation, it can be reasonably assumed that the two people in question are in a relationship, and have been for a period of time. In this situation, there is an implied level of understanding between the two as to what the other would/could do (or not). This is important, because a major reason domestic violence occurs (whether male to female, male to male, female to male, female to female, older to younger, younger to older, or any other variation) is that the aggressor knows that they can do what they do without the other fighting back. This could be due to physical reasons (if the victim is smaller, weaker etc), but most often due to mental/emotional reasons. In regard to the majority of situations (male to female), there are a number of mental factors, which I would prefer to leave to others to deal with, but with the less-common female to male abuse, a major factor is the social conditioning telling the men to never hit a woman.

So there are reasons the abusive relationship has occured. And in that regard, we would be looking at a situation where the abuser is female, and the victim is male. And while I agree that all domestic violence situations are absolutely deplorable, and are the lowest form of cowardice (basically abusing someone you know won't fight back), here we are not talking about a male to female situation. We are talking about one where a male is being abused by a woman. Surely those of you saying that domestic violence has no justification would have no problem if a woman was the victim, and she managed to fight back?

But to the timings presented. When the abuse is purely verbal, in a domstic situation, physical violence has no place. The furthest you should have the option of going is a restraining hold of some type, and attempt to calm them down. Should they start hitting you, then the first option should be restraining again. However, if the abuse is to the point of causing damage, and there is no way of restraining or leaving the situation, you have two options. One is to take it and hope for the best (usually due to social conditioning), the other is to respond, and that may mean hitting. The final timing we have is if you have asked them to stop, and they haven't. This, to me, is the same as above. Verbal abuse, restraint at most, physical, as the situation warrants.

But that is taking a narrow view of the original posted situation. Let's say it's the same wording as the OP, but you're out at a bar or club. And the girl is someone you've never seen before. With that in mind, I'll let you re-read the OP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wey
For you men, when do you consider it "ok" to hit a woman? After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop?

I've never been in this situation, but I'd probably act once shes been yelling in my face / trying to hit me.

Your thoughts?


Girlfriends/female friends etc are often used to set-up attacks. The most common ways are to have a girl talk/flirt with you, then get attacked by the boyfriend (this is sometimes set up by the guy, but is also often set up by the girl, who gets "turned on" by her man being a thug. Sad, but it happens), or for her to simply start yelling at some real or imagined slight ("Did you just grab my ___? You spilt my drink!" etc), and again, while you are dealing with her, the guy hits you from an unseen place. As well as that, at least here in Australia, the most common way to be stabbed is in a bar/club by the girlfriend of the guy you are currently fighting...

That said, in this situation it is very hard to know what to do. You not only have to deal with your social conditioning, you also have to realise that other peoples social conditioning will come into it as well. So, for these and other reasons, if all she is doing is yelling, as quickly as possible extract yourself from the situation, but be very aware of any other potential attackers who she may be with. If you hit at this point, reagardless of the reality, you will pretty much always be seen as the "bad guy", by all witnesses and security around. If she starts hitting you, cover, and get out. I don't recommend restraint here, again because of the perception of witnesses (you've just grabbed hold of some poor girl!), but also because it leaves you open to any other person she is there with. And if you've asked her to stop, leave you lone etc, and she hasn't, again, the prioritiy is to get out of there. There is no positive in staying.

Let's kick it up a bit, though. Female gangs are becoming more and more common, both in Australia and other parts of the world, so let's take the same OP, and look at it in a more violent light. Let's say that the girl in question is just one of a group (say, 6 or so?), and she has come up yelling at you, in an attempt to intimidate and assault/mug you. Does that change anyone's answer?

Personally, in a group assault, pre-emptive striking is my prefered option. I don't really care if it is a man, woman, or even a group of kids (teenagers, for example). It is simply too dangerous to let them start the physical side of things. So, in this case, just yelling is enough for me to hit. If it is one woman, I am likely to be more restrained, unless she pulls a weapon, in which case I treat her like anyone else who pulls a weapon. Basically, in all of this, I see no difference based on gender, I only see a difference based on risk and inherrent danger. And, from a mature standpoint, that is the only thing a responsible instructor can do.

 

[Marginal]

How much MA training did Lorena Bobbitt have?

Which MA covers defending against scissors while you're asleep?

 

[Big Don]

Which MA covers defending against scissors while you're asleep?

She used a knife, and none that I know of.

 

[Twin Fist]

ok.
I have never hit a woman in anger. only in training.

I even had one ex come at me with a knife, and i didnt hit her, i just twisted her wrist till she dropped it, then let her go.

the first time i was arrested, it was because i STOPPED a guy from slapping the **** out of his girl. forcefully.

that being said.

my mother, who was herself beaten by by dad, raised me with this in mind:

"if she raises her fist, and ACTS like a man, then treat her like one."


all this talk about "never" is all BS.

if you think you are in danger, defend yourself. Aint nobody above an *** kicking.

now, like i said, i never have, and i cant see myself doing it, BUT, i am not gonna let someone hurt me just because their plumbing is internal rather than external.

there is a line you do not cross.

 

[Tez3]

Female to male as well as female to female domestic violence is a lot more common than I think people realise or want to realise. The gender frankly should be ignored and it should be realised that no domestic violence is acceptable and all is against the law, it's all assault, the varying degrees of which depend upon your particular laws where you live.
If being attacked by anyone, reasonable force is what required in this country.

 

[rdonovan1]

I don't believe that it is ever ok to hit a woman unless it is to save your life or if it is in the context of sparring where both people tend to understand what the rules are.

In my opinion if you are a man and you are in relationship where she hits you and it is not life threatening to you, then the best thing to do is to end the relationship with her and if necessary to get a restraining order.

Hitting a woman outside of training or self defense is not only wrong in my book, but it is also immoral, unethical, and should be illegal as I believe that outside of those conditions there is nothing that a woman can do or say to warrent hitting her.

Real men don't hit women unless it is in a training situation or it is purely in self defense and even in self defense that is limited as you should never use any more force than is necessary to stop the attack. Anything more than that is and will be considered excessive force by the law and can land you in big trouble legally.

 

[Bruno@MT]

A kick to the groin followed by a kick to the face, throat, knee...
Pretty damn bad.

I didn't say you should open yourself up by standing legs wide and arms behind your back. Put it like this: you are an experienced MAist. I don't know your experience level but let's say black belt.

A woman half your weight, not a quarter of your strength and no MA experience walks in and for some reason you end up sparring on the very first day.

Even if she would try to hurt you, would she succeed?
No. Not if you pay attention. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Female to male as well as female to female domestic violence is a lot more common than I think people realise or want to realise. The gender frankly should be ignored and it should be realised that no domestic violence is acceptable and all is against the law, it's all assault, the varying degrees of which depend upon your particular laws where you live.
If being attacked by anyone, reasonable force is what required in this country.

I cannot speak from experience, but the usual scenarios of female to male abuse in a relationship are psychological and verbal because that is where women are stronger than men.

And I guess that makes sense. If you want to abuse someone, you do it in a way that the odds are on your side.

 

[Tez3]

I cannot speak from experience, but the usual scenarios of female to male abuse in a relationship are psychological and verbal because that is where women are stronger than men.

And I guess that makes sense. If you want to abuse someone, you do it in a way that the odds are on your side.

I have dealt with cases over the years where a woman has been beating her husband/partner up over a period of time, the man is usually ashamed to come out in the open with it and we find out about it when it has got so bad the man has had to get treatment from the A&E department.
It's no different from male to female violence in that domestic violence is not acceptable full stop.

 

[Laurentkd]

Hitting a woman outside of training or self defense is not only wrong in my book, but it is also immoral, unethical, and should be illegal as I believe that outside of those conditions there is nothing that a woman can do or say to warrent hitting her.

Real men don't hit women unless it is in a training situation or it is purely in self defense and even in self defense that is limited as you should never use any more force than is necessary to stop the attack. Anything more than that is and will be considered excessive force by the law and can land you in big trouble legally.

But shouldn't this all apply to hitting a man too?

 

[Tez3]

But shouldn't this all apply to hitting a man too?

I believe so. It comes across as patronising otherwise.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The last time I ever hit anybody, I think I was ten years old, and I’ve never hit a woman. I think most people are in the same situation as me. Give me a sword or a jo anyday!!

If you get into a situation of verbal or physical violence to such an extreme as has been discussed, the relationship is or should be over. (My first thought on reading the OP was a domestic)

I out weigh my wife, who has zero MA training, by damn near 100 pounds, and I have MA training, in weapons, and I’m an Ex-bodybuilder who still trains hard. If she ever hit me, my fear would be who would the police believe? If I hit her back, she may just say I started it and she was defending herself. I think I would restrain and avoid her at all costs, protecting myself in the process. Then I would get the hell outta Dodge.

In public, hopefully with lots of witnesses, I would do everything possible to avoid such a situation, but I would use the minimal amount of force necessary to stop any altercation, including hitting a woman.

It’s seems society still has a stigma when it comes to hitting women, even if your actions are justified.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I guess it's the Southern Gentleman in me but I feel that unless your life or the life of another is in jeopardy, NEVER.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't put a "hold" on a female for something less, that can be accomplished without causing serious damage with minor discomfort.

BUT, you can simply remove yourself from the situation in most cases and should do so.

 

[Rich Parsons]

For you men, when do you consider it "ok" to hit a woman? After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop?

I've never been in this situation, but I'd probably act once shes been yelling in my face / trying to hit me.

Your thoughts?

Verbal No

Physical No

I did ask the question of my ex, "What is the difference from her hitting and throwing things at me and me hitting or throwing things at her?" While this made her mad, it made her think of the danger she might get herself in someday.

That being said, if my life or general well being was at risk I would do what had to be done to stop the threat. Grab and hold. Get away. But, sometimes violence is called for. And in those cases once again do what is required to end or stop the threat.

If this is an abusive situation, call the police and get a report. Go the police station and get or ask for handouts on domestic violence and call tehm for help. Years ago the stats were 2% of reported cases were women physically abusing men. But that was reported cases.


If this is all about sparring, then use the level of control and contact that your school is using for your level of training. Both of you should understnad that while you are trying to hit each other and improve your skills it is not about anger or getting even or on purpose hurting someone.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I have dealt with cases over the years where a woman has been beating her husband/partner up over a period of time, the man is usually ashamed to come out in the open with it and we find out about it when it has got so bad the man has had to get treatment from the A&E department.
It's no different from male to female violence in that domestic violence is not acceptable full stop.

Tez,

You are correct, men go that did not hurt and then the women continue with the bad behaviour as the reaction they got only made them mad and reinforces their anger. In the end they step it up a notch and then another and then they break a bone, solar plexus, eye socket, and now the guy is really embarrassed and says nothing.

And even if the guys says My wife did it, 99.99% of the world laughs and thinks he is joking and thinks he did something stupid and does not want to talk about it.

I have dealt with a woman who also told people I hit and abused her. Friends who came to me and asked what was up?

You are correct there is no difference be it Male to female ot female to male or male to male or femalte to female in a relationship it is not acceptable.

 

[jarrod]

growing up my mom was usually the one to apply punishment, physical & otherwise. she's pretty tough; her folks died when she was 17 & she raised her 13 & 14 year old brothers by herself. this kind of led her to a hands-on approach to discipline (though i wouldn't say abusive). this upbringing also instilled in me the idea that if a woman dishes it out, she can take it. dear old mom was also the one who told me "well, hit them back," whenever i complained about bullies or my big brother. she also gave me my first lessons in dirty fighting.

now that said, i've never struck a woman even the couple times one has got physical with me. but if a woman actually struck me there is a decent chance that i would strike back without even thinking about it. it's not misogyny, it's just that i am very accustomed to tough women, & to treating them the same as men if they act as if they would like to be treated the same.

i know this isn't the most chivalrous answer on the thread, but it's an honest one.

jf

 

[padre]

Escalating to physical violence from verbal aggression isn't cool, regardless of gender.

Whether in sparring or in some other scenario in which a physical response is appropriate, gender is basically irrelevant.

 

[MJS]

For you men, when do you consider it "ok" to hit a woman? After she's verbally abused you? After she's hit you once, twice, more? After she keeps doing both mentioned before after you told her to stop?

I've never been in this situation, but I'd probably act once shes been yelling in my face / trying to hit me.

Your thoughts?

I would say no, its not ok, anymore than its ok for the woman to hit the male during a domestic. In the perfect world, one of the parties, would seperate themselves from the other, call the police and let them sort it out. But we all know that doesnt always happen. Providing you have done nothing to start this domestic, then at the most, if getting away isn't an option, then perhaps restraining the person would be an option, to prevent further injury to you and them.