His job was to rape young girls before their execution

[Ken Morgan]

good luck with the atheism thing...tell me how that works out for ya.

Actually It's working out quite well, thank you for asking!

 

[Omar B]

Blaming religion and pretending all would be well without it is blinkered. People would merely find something else, Pol Pot, Stalin and Ceausescu and many others did.
The raping of virgins before their execution/murder has been around since Roman times, in this case though perhaps it's excuse for inflicting yet another torture on somebody.

Congrats, I've found my Ceaucescu reference for the day!

 

[celtic_crippler]

"Religion" is responsible for more death and suffering throughout our history than anything else. It doesn't matter what name it goes by; Islam, Christianity, ..whatever.

That being said, I feel that "spititual" people typically have good character. I suppose you could say that I view religion as a perversion of spirituality. Most often used for political gain (power.)

 

[Tez3]

"Religion" is responsible for more death and suffering throughout our history than anything else. It doesn't matter what name it goes by; Islam, Christianity, ..whatever.

That being said, I feel that "spititual" people typically have good character. I suppose you could say that I view religion as a perversion of spirituality. Most often used for political gain (power.)

I disagree though, religion in itself doesn't do anything. People will always find a way to justify their deeds, religion is only one way, get rid of it and something else will take it's place, it's human nature thats at fault, we will always have a reason to be intolerant. Yu can twist any belief or even non belief into something foul.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I disagree though, religion in itself doesn't do anything. People will always find a way to justify their deeds, religion is only one way, get rid of it and something else will take it's place, it's human nature thats at fault, we will always have a reason to be intolerant. Yu can twist any belief or even non belief into something foul.

Yup...and it's called "religion." LOL

 

[CoryKS]

"Religion" is responsible for more death and suffering throughout our history than anything else. It doesn't matter what name it goes by; Islam, Christianity, ..whatever.

That being said, I feel that "spititual" people typically have good character. I suppose you could say that I view religion as a perversion of spirituality. Most often used for political gain (power.)

I see where you're coming from here, but I think you're blaming the gun for killing people rather than the person wielding it. Religion is a tool, and it works really well for getting a whole lot of people to move in one direction without having to explain the whys and wherefores to them. Sometimes you get unsavory people holding the reins, and sometimes you get unintended consequences where someone interprets doctrine in an unorthodox manner. But I think its best to focus on those specific events rather than to discourage religious participation in general, because it can be valuable.

 

[Tez3]

Yup...and it's called "religion." LOL

So what justified the communist atrocities? The communist countries are atheist and anti religion yet in the old USSR millions were tortured and killed.

 

[CoryKS]

So what justified the communist atrocities? The communist countries are atheist and anti religion yet in the old USSR millions were tortured and killed.

I consider communism to be a religion. It reveres the state rather than a deity, but the trappings are essentially the same. Eric Hoffer wrote a fascinating book called The True Believer, which discusses the traits of mass movements and the reasons why people join them. Highly recommended.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I see where you're coming from here, but I think you're blaming the gun for killing people rather than the person wielding it. Religion is a tool, and it works really well for getting a whole lot of people to move in one direction without having to explain the whys and wherefores to them. Sometimes you get unsavory people holding the reins, and sometimes you get unintended consequences where someone interprets doctrine in an unorthodox manner. But I think its best to focus on those specific events rather than to discourage religious participation in general, because it can be valuable.

Sorry...don't mean to come off that way. Religion is the tool, yes I recognize that. But it's a dangerous tool because people use it to tap into other's emotions, hopes, and spirituality to further an agenda. When you control someone's faith they'll believe and do what ever you say.

So what justified the communist atrocities? The communist countries are atheist and anti religion yet in the old USSR millions were tortured and killed.

They're actually Greek Orthodox I believe? But anyway, Stalin outlawed "religion" because he didn't want any competition...the "state" was the new "religion." ...a rose by any other name still stinks...lol

 

[MA-Caver]

I keep finding it strange how we are condemning another religion/country that condemns us as harshly for how WE live. How we let our women dress and act and so forth.
The definition of evil is a blurred line and it depends upon which side of it you live.
Agreed it's horrible in the manner that they treat their women, even condemned prisoners who are probably guilty only of violating a religious precept... and even then probably falsely accused by an irate husband who feels that it's within his right to do so because she burnt dinner one night, or spoke back at him during an argument.

Bombing these people and talk of "wiping them off the face of the earth" sounds just like what they want to do to us. Yet peace/treaty negotiations are necessary for both sides to prevent the rhetoric from becoming a reality. Sort of leave us alone and we'll leave you alone.
The BIG problem is that there are those who do NOT want to leave "them" alone because they got something we want... oil that is, black gold, Texas tea. If we curb that lustful part of ourselves then the worries about what goes on over there would be curbed as well and they would likely stop worrying about us coming over to take away their wealth, which is essentially what we want to do in the long run.
I say WE by way of the present "powers that be"... and I'm not talking about our government(s) but the powers that are behind said governments.
Of course this means getting the oil companies and their stockholders to curb their own greed and allowing the technology of non-fossil fuels to be mass produced and implemented into our societies that we would not need that stuff that comes up outta the ground... or at least not as much as present demands require.

yeah.... rrriiiggghhhtt!

 

[celtic_crippler]

I keep finding it strange how we are condemning another religion/country that condemns us as harshly for how WE live. How we let our women dress and act and so forth.
The definition of evil is a blurred line and it depends upon which side of it you live.
Agreed it's horrible in the manner that they treat their women, even condemned prisoners who are probably guilty only of violating a religious precept... and even then probably falsely accused by an irate husband who feels that it's within his right to do so because she burnt dinner one night, or spoke back at him during an argument.

Bombing these people and talk of "wiping them off the face of the earth" sounds just like what they want to do to us. Yet peace/treaty negotiations are necessary for both sides to prevent the rhetoric from becoming a reality. Sort of leave us alone and we'll leave you alone.
The BIG problem is that there are those who do NOT want to leave "them" alone because they got something we want... oil that is, black gold, Texas tea. If we curb that lustful part of ourselves then the worries about what goes on over there would be curbed as well and they would likely stop worrying about us coming over to take away their wealth, which is essentially what we want to do in the long run.
I say WE by way of the present "powers that be"... and I'm not talking about our government(s) but the powers that are behind said governments.
Of course this means getting the oil companies and their stockholders to curb their own greed and allowing the technology of non-fossil fuels to be mass produced and implemented into our societies that we would not need that stuff that comes up outta the ground... or at least not as much as present demands require.

yeah.... rrriiiggghhhtt!

Point taken...I don't hear a lot about the African nations forcing female circumcision being bombed back to the stone age.

BUT...it doesn't make it any less a human rights violation. Another big problem with religion, any religion, is that it most often does not lend itself to logic, reason, or basic common sense.

 

[Live True]

BUT...it doesn't make it any less a human rights violation. Another big problem with religion, any religion, is that it most often does not lend itself to logic, reason, or basic common sense.

CC you make some very valid points, and I agree that this treatment of women is barbaric and hideously cruel. I also agree that some of the worst atrocities are committed in the name of religion and fanatical idealogies. To the OP, I personally think this man and his cohorts should have some anatomical revisions made....%-}


That said, faith is not a wholly bad thing, and you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. First - - realizing this is specifically why some folks disapprove of religion - - I believe that religion is meant to address that part of our world and beliefs that doesn't always match science and logic, as we know it. It is the same part of us that reaches poetic and artistic heights in some finer pieces of music, sculpture, or other type of art. (and for the record, I do not believe you have to have religion or faith to create amazing art...thbbttt!) It is that intuitive and creative part of us that cannot be pinned down by science, at least not as we know it. I do not think that makes it bad. I simply think it makes it different and hard for some to grasp.

Unfortunately, not all people seek religion for self knowledge, aesthetic, and/or self and world exploration. Many choose religion for comfort, belonging, and/or direction...and there lies the problem. If you are choosing religion for comfort, then you will sacrifice whatever reason and logic you have to keep your comfort level high. If you are choosing relgion for belonging, then you will do what you have to so you can continue to belong...at least until belonging is no longer satisfactory to you. Finally, if you are choosing religion for direction, because you don't WANT to think, then you are ripe pickings for any strong minded individual who comes along. Sheep, by any other name, are easily led and misled...and there are more wolves than shephards willing to take charge, it seems.

 

[Live True]

Religion and politics are both used to control the masses in many of the worst atrocities of history....so, perhaps, it's frenzied ideaology that you dislike so...and religion is just one of the easier targets to pin down.

These men are using thier culture and religion to excuse thier actions. Quite honestly, that's a lie. They had a choice. It was simply easier to choose to "go along" and "do what they were told".
<><><>
Fortunately for us, religion and politics are also responsible for some truly amazing and beautiful creations...(and destruction of same...sigh)

bamiyam buddha (destroyed in 2001 by the Taliban//170+ feet tall?)

parthenon

machu picchu

palace tombs at petra

angkor wat, cambodia

 

[celtic_crippler]

Further back-thread I said I find spritual people are most often of better character. Perhaps I should be saying "organized" religion to better get my point across.

 

[Live True]

apologies, Bill...just realized I kinda assisted in hijacking the thread...SAWRY...

and now back to our regular programming......

 

[Live True]

Further back-thread I said I find spritual people are most often of better character. Perhaps I should be saying "organized" religion to better get my point across.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you, as I'm not a fan of organized religion myself...but I think the real fault lies in those folks who seek comfort, belonging, and direction above thier seeking thier own minds and directing thier own lives. sheeople....baaaaadd....

I think the point I was trying to make...is that faith is not all bad...as you state...and sometimes the "organized" part can create some beautiful things....

 

[MA-Caver]

Religion is one thing... human rights violations is another. Unfortunately many of the aforementioned is done in the name of religion.
Yet who are we to judge?
Would we not be just as incensed if they came over to our land(s) en massed, armed and overwhelming in firepower and such and told us everything we were taught while growing up is WRONG? Our faith, our government, our judicial system, etc.
Evil, just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
We are taught that the painting of The Birth of Venus by Sandro Botticelli is a beautiful thing, yet there are those who would burn such a painting because of the nudity represented within... and they don't HAVE to be Muslim at all.
We decry child sex with an adult as evil yet in Thailand it's perfectly legal. Are we doing anything with them... going to go to war with them... of course not... what does Thailand has to offer to us? Nothing that the powers that be could use (or make a profit for). If Thailand had a huge underground reservoir of oil or gold or whatever is of intrinsic value then yeah we'd be hearing more about it and be over there to make things right! But since they don't, ehh, leave them alone as long as they don't bring it over here... right?

So we're given stories of these particular atrocities in those lands as propaganda so to make us be disgusted with them, hate them and be more willing to go fight them in a grand scheme to make things right when the bottom line is to seize the oil (read: $$$) that is there.

 

[KELLYG]

I think that most of the Iran's problem has nothing to do with religion or sex but power. Obtaining power and keeping power is very difficult. Keeping people frightened by using what ever method necessary is one of the most effective methods of control. If females are taken out of the power equation then the people in control are only responsible for keeping 1/2 of the population in line. If 1/2 of the population is automatically deemed superior to the other 1/2 then every one has someone to push around, except for the women of course. If everyone's attention is directed in and among themselves then the powers at be can do what ever they want to without worry.

 

[MA-Caver]

I think that most of the Iran's problem has nothing to do with religion or sex but power. Obtaining power and keeping power is very difficult. Keeping people frightened by using what ever method necessary is one of the most effective methods of control. If females are taken out of the power equation then the people in control are only responsible for keeping 1/2 of the population in line. If 1/2 of the population is automatically deemed superior to the other 1/2 then every one has someone to push around, except for the women of course. If everyone's attention is directed in and among themselves then the powers at be can do what ever they want to without worry.

I would think that as well. We saw how strongly the suffragette movement here in the states (and over the pond) affected/changed how women are treated in this country and then later with civil rights and then the harassment laws which protect and equalize women even further.
Iran is going through changes whether they want to or not. A woman is martyred there being shot during the political debacle they experienced a month or so ago.
That will affect changes within and as I've always noticed throughout history (via reading) that an oppressed people will rise up against their oppressors sooner or later. All we got to do is sit back and let it happen (to them) and take advantage of the changes as they occur instead of spending our own blood trying to FORCE those changes upon them.
Same with Somalia and the other African countries that have oppressive leaders... they don't live forever and the people will rise up once they're sick and tired of being sick and tired. Who are we to affect the natural course of a country's history? Lets worry about OUR own for a change.

 

[Andrew Green]

I see where you're coming from here, but I think you're blaming the gun for killing people rather than the person wielding it.

Well... weapons in war do have a considerable effect on the ability to wage it. Armies on foot wielding swords and bows do considerably less damage then a full out war with modern weapons which can destroy entire cities.

Apart from weapons you also need people to fight, religion gives the people that motivation. Religion might not have been the "reason" for many wars, the reason more likely being resources or territory, but it has provided the justification, and given many soldiers the ability to kill other humans.

I consider communism to be a religion. It reveres the state rather than a deity, but the trappings are essentially the same. Eric Hoffer wrote a fascinating book called The True Believer, which discusses the traits of mass movements and the reasons why people join them. Highly recommended.

Communism is not a religion, it is a economic system. It is no more a religion then the American system of capitalism. It may fuel a similar "this is THE way" attitude in people, but it is not a religion.