Higher rank, but not teaching?

[puunui]

Which highlights another difference between our systems. If a student at our school instructs but does not continue to actively train then they wont be promoted beyond 4th dan.

Who said 4th Dan in "my system" aren't obligated to train? Try reading the Explanation of Sipjin poomsae.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Who said 4th Dan in "my system" aren't obligated to train? Try reading the Explanation of Sipjin poomsae.

Im sorry I was basing that on the kukki instructor who lives up the road from me. He is a good bloke and really knows his stuff, but by his own admission since becoming an instructor and running 4 classes a week and instructing at their black belt classes he just doesnt get the time to 'really' invest in his own training much anymore. Basically he is instructing 5 nights a week, has a couple of kids and a life outside of tkd which doesnt leave much time for his own development. He also said something about his future gradings being 'honorary' which apparantly means he isnt required to spar, break timber, do all the push ups, sit ups etc normally required for grading. He said he does his time and will get promoted. Obviously you do it differently, but clearly even kukki clubs have their differences as he does little training anymore, but as I said he is a wealth of knowledge and a very good martial artist, but in our system he wouldnt be allowed to grade and obviously from what you've said he wouldnt be allowed to grade in your system either, which seems strange considering he is part of your system.

 

[puunui]

Obviously you do it differently, but clearly even kukki clubs have their differences as he does little training anymore, but as I said he is a wealth of knowledge and a very good martial artist, but in our system he wouldnt be allowed to grade and obviously from what you've said he wouldnt be allowed to grade in your system either, which seems strange considering he is part of your system.

Try reading the Sipjin explanation again, which states that hopefully he develops some assistants who can help him teach, which frees up his time for going back to training. Too many instructors fall into the trap that you talked about. That's why I think it is a bad idea for 1st Dans to start teaching or leading classes, because they get into a routine that does not allow for training.

But I think you are beginning to understand that within Kukki Taekwondo, there are all kinds of methods and everyone does it differently. I think you have this idea in your head about what is or isn't Kukki Taekwondo, based on what you see around you, but I think you need to let go of that to see it clearly. The empty your cup so you can taste my tea idea from Bruce Lee.

The fact of the matter is that Kukki Taekwondo is all over the spectrum, although I do see movement towards the Kukkiwon curriculum. Less than twenty years ago, you saw Chang Hon, Pyong Ahn, Palgwae, and Taeguek poomsae, as well as Moo Duk Kwan, ITF trimmed, and all kinds of other uniforms at our state championships. Today, we have most everyone doing the Taeguek poomsae, with the exception of one school, and everyone wears v necks.

The fact that you are here and are interested in ways outside of your own club tells me that you are different than perhaps some of your seniors. The 4th Dan who asks you for example, "What is Kukkiwon" obviously does not share the same sort of intellectual curiousity that you do. He is happy going to class, training and that's the end of it for him. Not you. In some ways your school is like the garden of eden, and you are like Adam eating fruit from the tree of knowledge.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Try reading the Sipjin explanation again, which states that hopefully he develops some assistants who can help him teach, which frees up his time for going back to training. Too many instructors fall into the trap that you talked about. That's why I think it is a bad idea for 1st Dans to start teaching or leading classes, because they get into a routine that does not allow for training.

But I think you are beginning to understand that within Kukki Taekwondo, there are all kinds of methods and everyone does it differently. I think you have this idea in your head about what is or isn't Kukki Taekwondo, based on what you see around you, but I think you need to let go of that to see it clearly. The empty your cup so you can taste my tea idea from Bruce Lee.

The fact of the matter is that Kukki Taekwondo is all over the spectrum, although I do see movement towards the Kukkiwon curriculum. Less than twenty years ago, you saw Chang Hon, Pyong Ahn, Palgwae, and Taeguek poomsae, as well as Moo Duk Kwan, ITF trimmed, and all kinds of other uniforms at our state championships. Today, we have most everyone doing the Taeguek poomsae, with the exception of one school, and everyone wears v necks.

The fact that you are here and are interested in ways outside of your own club tells me that you are different than perhaps some of your seniors. The 4th Dan who asks you for example, "What is Kukkiwon" obviously does not share the same sort of intellectual curiousity that you do. He is happy going to class, training and that's the end of it for him. Not you. In some ways your school is like the garden of eden, and you are like Adam eating fruit from the tree of knowledge.

Yes, I agree. Im the type of person where if I do anything I want to research it as much as possible and know as much about it as possible. Im happy to do things the way my club does, and to be honest, ther's not a single thing Id change if I were running the show at our club, but I love hearing about how others do it, its really interesting. Then you get people like a mate of mine who is a 3rd dan where I train. He is one of my employees so we get to discuss all things tkd all day at work. He loves discussing the technical stuff, the best kicks, ways to improve his sparring, form etc, but the minute I discuss anything along the lines of what we discuss here he just switches off. He just has no interest in any of the politics or anything like that. When he was 7 years old his parents enrolled him in the local tkd club and he just loved it and is now 22 (I think) and has never stopped training but has no interest at all in the other bits and pieces that go on. Many pople are like this, in all arts. I have a friend who is a black belt in zendokai (a very good MA), we were talking recently and he was amazed how much I knew about zendokai, in fact I was telling him things he had no idea about, he didnt even know its an australian martial art or any of the background. He's just happy to train, learn the curriculum and improve his zendokai and couldnt care less about the 'roots' of the art. Many people are like this.

 

[puunui]

Im the type of person where if I do anything I want to research it as much as possible and know as much about it as possible. Im happy to do things the way my club does, and to be honest, ther's not a single thing Id change if I were running the show at our club, but I love hearing about how others do it, its really interesting.

I am also like you, to the point where I need or want to know everything about my particular interest. I am not satisfied with being spoon fed pat answers that make no logical or intuitive sense. There came a point for me that I needed to go out on my own and test my own theories and methods, rather continue to live in the house that my instructors built. I needed to build my own house. Some people stay with their parents their whole lives, and there is nothing wrong with that. But I think there is also benefit in creating your own home and raising your own family. Thankfully my instructors not only approved, but they actively encouraged me in this regard, giving me as much freedom as I wanted to do my thing and supporting me every step of the way. In short, they treated me exactly how they were treated when they were in my particular spot. The difference between my instructors and I is, and this is a big one, they were busy trying to create something original and fresh, while I spend all my time trying to understand their original and fresh creation.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I am also like you, to the point where I need or want to know everything about my particular interest. I am not satisfied with being spoon fed pat answers that make no logical or intuitive sense. There came a point for me that I needed to go out on my own and test my own theories and methods, rather continue to live in the house that my instructors built. I needed to build my own house. Some people stay with their parents their whole lives, and there is nothing wrong with that. But I think there is also benefit in creating your own home and raising your own family. Thankfully my instructors not only approved, but they actively encouraged me in this regard, giving me as much freedom as I wanted to do my thing and supporting me every step of the way. In short, they treated me exactly how they were treated when they were in my particular spot. The difference between my instructors and I is, and this is a big one, they were busy trying to create something original and fresh, while I spend all my time trying to understand their original and fresh creation.

Thats why I do some cross training, it gives me a chance to use what my instructors have taught me and pressure test it against other arts. One of the 3rd dans in my class does zendokai, karate and muay thai and lives down the road. I also do some extra training with him and we can throw some ideas around. I even train with my mate's neighbour who is a korean bloke who is hardcore into the kukki system, and we compare what we know also.

 

[granfire]

I don't know if you read my explanation of the Kukkiwon yudanja poomsae, but the pioneers addressed this. By the way, ITA, is your organization the one who works with Dr. Kimm? He mentioned once that he was working with an ITA group but I didn't know which one.

Indeed, that's the ITA. Now they go under Tiger rock Martial Arts or something....

 

[Archtkd]

I find it intereating that someone who trains (but especially tests) regularly wouldn't want to teach. Or rather, why would someone want to/or continue to test if they weren't interested in teaching, or helping out ocasionally around the dojang. This doesn't seem to fit among TKDin. IMO

I think stages in life play a large role in the teaching decision. After I earned my 1st Dan, I taught and practiced for five years, while also working a full-time job and attending college. After grad school I got very busy at highly stressful jobs, quit teaching all together but went on practising for about seven years. During that instructing hiatus I made it very clear to my masters that I would not do teaching of any kind -- including leading in stretching. One master discovered I could teach, and with him I had to pretend I was a completely unreliable person when it came to keeping schedules and time. I got out of my self imposed teaching exile after earning my 4th Dan and opening my own dojang.

 

[StudentCarl]

I think teaching is an essential part of higher development.

Every person you teach is a mirror who reflects different lessons back to you: things they do better, worse and just differently challenge your own understanding as you try to help them learn. Finding ways to get someone else to learn makes you deepen your own understanding of technique further than just studying on your own.

If a purpose of studying a martial art is mastery of yourself beyond just physical technique mastery, then teaching is an essential part of the journey. The lessons are more than physical: teaching people of different ages, personalities and temperaments also polishes your character, your understanding of people, and your soul.

As a veteran high school teacher I continue to learn from kids--about them, about teaching, and about myself.

 

[dancingalone]

I only just started teaching children last year after years of resolve to never do so. It's forced me to grow and stretch my ability to communicate and relate to others, and the spillover has also helped my teaching ability with adults.

I am glad to have the experience and I probably should have been more open-minded before.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I think in many cases, too much emphasis is put on "the next stripe." If are you training for the stripe or are you developing the skills and responsibilities for that promotion. If we compare this to a different career, most people want the promotion because of the benefits (pay, corner office, etc.). However, with the promotion comes more responsibility and job description.

Most martial arts follow a similar path. If you earn a promotion, there are benefits and responsibilities that come with it. In our association, if you are a 4th dan or higher, responsibilities include teaching and conducting classes. It is not necessary for you to have your own school, but the teaching responsibilities are there, none-the-less.

I have to agree with Puunui, that if you haven't seen one of your students promoted to 1st Dan, then you aren't really living up to your responsibilities.

I have 3 1/2 years before I am eligible to test for my 6th Dan, but I have been teaching my own classes for years (ranging from regular classes to monthly instructors and black belt classes). My school is fortunate in that we have many high ranking black belts under one roof (two 7th dans, two 6th dans, two 5th dans, and two 4th dans), but the 6th and 7th dans are all in their mid to late 60's. I foresee them retiring in the not so distant future, leaving myself as one of the senior instructors of the school. This is my responsibility as a 5th dan (possibly even a 6th dan by the time it happens).

If you do not wish to teach, then don't test beyond 3rd dan. As someone mentioned before, teaching isn't required, but neither is testing.

 

[Kacey]

I think teaching is an essential part of higher development.

Every person you teach is a mirror who reflects different lessons back to you: things they do better, worse and just differently challenge your own understanding as you try to help them learn. Finding ways to get someone else to learn makes you deepen your own understanding of technique further than just studying on your own.

If a purpose of studying a martial art is mastery of yourself beyond just physical technique mastery, then teaching is an essential part of the journey. The lessons are more than physical: teaching people of different ages, personalities and temperaments also polishes your character, your understanding of people, and your soul.

As a veteran high school teacher I continue to learn from kids--about them, about teaching, and about myself.

I'm with Carl. I teach middle school special ed, and I continue to learn from all the kids I teach - about kids, about teaching, people in general - no matter the venue.

 

[puunui]

I have to agree with Puunui, that if you haven't seen one of your students promoted to 1st Dan, then you aren't really living up to your responsibilities.

I don't know if I would use the word responsibility, but the point of the middle dans (4-6) is to learn about teaching and experience the exponential growth that can come from that. If you are not teaching, at your own school with your own students, then you by definition you cannot learn those lessons and your growth will be stunted or severely slowed. Teaching at your instructor's school helps a little, but if you stay too long, then that would be like an older brother helping raise his younger siblings -- it's not the same as raising your own family in your own house.

 

[puunui]

I foresee them retiring in the not so distant future, leaving myself as one of the senior instructors of the school. This is my responsibility as a 5th dan (possibly even a 6th dan by the time it happens).

So what will happen when everyone including your grandmaster either retires completely or passes away. At that point, will you make your own dan certificate signed by you and give them to your students? And at that point, assuming you don't make it to 9th Dan, how will you continue to get promoted?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

So what will happen when everyone including your grandmaster either retires completely or passes away. At that point, will you make your own dan certificate signed by you and give them to your students? And at that point, assuming you don't make it to 9th Dan, how will you continue to get promoted?

Our KJN's hope is that the USTW will continue as a NGB for Non-KKW traditional TKD. Although I have my reservations on whether or not it will thrive or die out. Some high ranking bb's have been promoted through the USTW for the reason you mentioned above. For example, John Critzos III, one of KIM Ki Whang's students was promoted to 7th dan last year.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I don't know if I would use the word responsibility, but the point of the middle dans (4-6) is to learn about teaching and experience the exponential growth that can come from that. If you are not teaching, at your own school with your own students, then you by definition you cannot learn those lessons and your growth will be stunted or severely slowed. Teaching at your instructor's school helps a little, but if you stay too long, then that would be like an older brother helping raise his younger siblings -- it's not the same as raising your own family in your own house.

That may work in a larger city, but I live in SMALL town USA.. . It would not support multiple training halls.

 

[puunui]

That may work in a larger city, but I live in SMALL town USA.. . It would not support multiple training halls.

Then the practitioner would need to move to continue growing, just like the many who lived in small towns before him.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Then the practitioner would need to move to continue growing, just like the many who lived in small towns before him.

For those of us that have careers outside of TKD, that isn't always feasible. There are only 2 people in our whole association that do this as their "day job"; our KJN and another instructor down state.

 

[andyjeffries]

Then the practitioner would need to move to continue growing, just like the many who lived in small towns before him.

I'm not going to move for Taekwondo. I immensely enjoy training and teaching (as the most senior Assistant Instructor at our club) but I have a family/home and am not going to move so I can open a club.

I'm most likely to inherit the club when our instructor retires and for that reason having a high dan grade will help (rather than waiting until he retires to start getting higher dan).

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm not going to move for Taekwondo. I immensely enjoy training and teaching (as the most senior Assistant Instructor at our club) but I have a family/home and am not going to move so I can open a club.

I'm most likely to inherit the club when our instructor retires and for that reason having a high dan grade will help (rather than waiting until he retires to start getting higher dan).

I agree with this, and I believe this is where many of the discussions regarding politics/teaching/kukki certs etc break down. The majority of people who do MA are just doing it as a hobby or a way to get fit and have no interest whatsoever in teaching or what the club's lineage is etc, they just want to train. There is no way I would up root my family and shut down my business so I could teach tkd because its "the next step in my journey".