What is the point of testing after a certain level?

[Earl Weiss]

Errrr, what? Revised Romanisation is the official direct alphabet translation - Revised Romanization of Korean - Wikipedia

Aside from that you have two ㅗ characters in the word 도복 so they are written the same not as o + a.

Does "Romanization" remain the same irrespective of national pronunciation differences i.e. British English and American English? How about regional pronunciation differences within Korea? (Not certain there are any but I think I have heard some native speakers say things differently.)

 

[andyjeffries]

Does "Romanization" remain the same irrespective of national pronunciation differences i.e. British English and American English? How about regional pronunciation differences within Korea? (Not certain there are any but I think I have heard some native speakers say things differently.)

Bearing in mind I consider myself an intermediate/lower-advanced speaker and not fluent (although to anyone that doesn't speak Korean I sound it, I can have a conversation using only Korean with native speakers, but some of it is me not remembering a word so having to explain what the word I'm looking for is, but in Korean).

So it does remaining the same regardless of national pronunciation differences, however, they actually use American English as their standard form of English pronunciation. There are a number of words in Korean where they use the English word pronounced in a Korean way (called Konglish), and generally they use the American pronunciation as a base.

There are regional differences (사투리, satoori), but to my understanding this isn't that they generally pronounce a given word differently (i.e. same Hangul, different sound), but they use an entirely different word or ending, and use the correct Hangul for that pronunciation. For example, Tofu in standard Korean is 두부 (Dooboo), but in the Busan region, they call it 조포 (Jopo). They would write it as Jopo, not Dooboo and pronounce it as Jopo. So if they change the sound for the regional variation, they change the writing to match it. Does that make sense?

Even with any regional variations though, the Hangul-to-sound is consistent. The Hangul alphabet was invented to have lots of references to the position of the lips, tongue and throat when making that sound. For example:

One of the best pieces of advice I received when learning Korean was to forget trying to write it out using English letters. Any of the available romanisation systems is at best an approximation of the sound in letters where your brain will already have a concept of what that letter sounds like. So I was told "forget English letters, learn Hangul and how each letter sounds and pronounce them that way". One good example of that is ㄹ which is "either L or R". This sounds confusing but it's actually a sound somewhere in between that we don't really have in English, and it sounds slightly different naturally depending on what sound is before/after it. But when we think "L or R" we never get quite the right sound to come out of our mouths, and we confuse ourselves on which sound to use in a given situation.

In the example we were discussing, 도복 Dobok has two ㅗ letters (written out bit by bit it's ㄷㅗ ㅂㅗㄱ) which is "oh" so whether you pronounce that sounds (incorrectly) as an "ah" instead of an "oh", either way it should be the same letter. For example, I could understand Dabak or Dobok (although officially only the latter is correct), but to use Dobak feels weird (like the two syllables SHOULD have different vowel sounds, and they most definitely should not).

I hope some of this makes sense, it's something that's become quite natural to me since I started learning Korean (properly) in 2014, so explaining it in English is not something I have to do very often. Also, as I said at the start, I'm not fluent/native, so open to being corrected/educated by anyone fluent/native.

 

[andyjeffries]

Another couple of words that are often mispronounced are Taekwondo itself (some people pronounce it as if it was "Thai-kwondo", even though there's no "ai" sound in Hangul), and the Kukkiwon poomsae Taebaek. The reason the latter is misprounced is kind of like our situation at hand, it's often mispronounced as "Tae-back", but the vowel for both syllables "ae" is the same, so the vowel sound for each syllable should be the same.

On the Thai/Taekwondo thing, it's awkward in Korean to make an "ai" sound at all. If they want to write the Japanese martial art Aikido in Korean (which is 3 Hanja/Chinese characters), they have to use four Hangul syllables and sound it out - 아이키도 - ah-ee-kee-do. They have to use ah-ee to simulate the sound of "ai" or "eye" because they don't have a sound for it. Because they sound it out phonetically they use 키 for Ki, even though there's actually a Korean word 기 (which is gi/ki depending on your romanisation system). The same Hanja for Aikido when read out in Korean is Hapkido, 합기도 - notice the 기 not 키 because they aren't just writing out a foreign word now in Hangul and trying to approximate the sound.

Anyway, enough language-nerding for me, unless anyone is interested in this stuff...

 

[HighKick]

I disagree - I'd be surprised if most people learnt bawi-milgi (boulder push) outside of that poomsae, it's a super rare technique to be used normally. Same with the reverse knifehand guarding block. If those things are regularly drilled (along with all of the other basics, and sparring, and self-defence, and poomsae) then the classes must be about 5 hours long each

That is a pretty narrow exception.

 

[andyjeffries]

That is a pretty narrow exception.

The same applies to most high Dan poomsae new movements, in my opinion.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

But... but... the ORIGINAL Romanization (note spelling...) was the Official Direct Alphabet Translation....

There is no direct way to translate the letters. Each has characters with no corresponding character in the other. The most blatant example being Ieung, which normally has no pronunciation; it is silent. At most, it is a glottal stop. So while many linguists have agreed to use that adaptation, it is still nothing but an opinion.

I use dobak and dobok, color and colour, gray and grey. You will just have to deal with that, because I'm not likely to change.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I disagree - I'd be surprised if most people learnt bawi-milgi (boulder push) outside of that poomsae, it's a super rare technique to be used normally. Same with the reverse knifehand guarding block. If those things are regularly drilled (along with all of the other basics, and sparring, and self-defence, and poomsae) then the classes must be about 5 hours long each

Bawimilgi is a variant of jebipoom mokchigi, learned in Taegeuk Sa Jang. In the same vein, jebipoom mokchigi is nothing more than a knifehand strike and a knifehand high block performed together. It's a bit of a stretch to consider either a new technique, but whatever makes you happy.

And, again, it is a mistake to assume that forms are the only way the student could have learned bawimilgi. It's not. I was certainly familiar with the movement well before I learned Sipjin.

Our classes are 60-90 minutes (assuming we stop on the clock, which is not a given). But we don't award Dan ranks in 2-3 years, either, as a general rule.

 

[skribs]

Bawimilgi is a variant of jebipoom mokchigi, learned in Taegeuk Sa Jang. In the same vein, jebipoom mokchigi is nothing more than a knifehand strike and a knifehand high block performed together. It's a bit of a stretch to consider either a new technique, but whatever makes you happy.

No, it's a big stretch to consider these two a variant of each other. Your hands end up in a knife-hand in somewhat the same place, yes. But the path to get there is entirely different.

If this is your standard for application in the forms, it's no wonder I "miss" all the things that you know that I don't. Because if you have such a loose definition of what something is, then anything could be anything.

In Taegeuk 1, we do a down block. I suppose that could be a rolling thunder kick. Because a rolling thunder kick you go down, and a down block goes down. Am I getting the hang of it now?

 

[andyjeffries]

Bawimilgi is a variant of jebipoom mokchigi, learned in Taegeuk Sa Jang. In the same vein, jebipoom mokchigi is nothing more than a knifehand strike and a knifehand high block performed together. It's a bit of a stretch to consider either a new technique, but whatever makes you happy.

I agree with @skribs on this one, I completely disagree and think it's a stretch to consider it a varient of that move.

The purpose is different, the placement of the hands is entirely different (e.g. the "knifehand high block" in jebipoom mok chigi is done to the front in a regular high block position - knifehand edge in a vertical line with the centre line, and in bawi milgi it's not really a knifehand high block at all: it finishes to the side, and with the upper arm much closer to the head than a regular knifehand high block would), and finally the motion used to get there is different (immediate turn of the wrist, pushing to the side rather than "wiping in front of the face").

I guess if you squint and blur your vision and tilt your head just right, they almost look similar, but really they aren't (thanks to John Hoynes, fictional VP in West Wing for the almost quote)

And, again, it is a mistake to assume that forms are the only way the student could have learned bawimilgi. It's not. I was certainly familiar with the movement well before I learned Sipjin.

I never claimed that it was the only way they could have learned it. I said "I'd be surprised if most people learnt bawi-milgi (boulder push) outside of that poomsae, it's a super rare technique to be used normally." Notice the "most people" part ;-)

Our classes are 60-90 minutes (assuming we stop on the clock, which is not a given).

And in that time you do all the basics for all of the poomsae, plus the poomsae separately (as you said you practice the movements outside of poomsae), plus self-defence and step sparring, plus sparring?

But we don't award Dan ranks in 2-3 years, either, as a general rule.

Are you referring to giving 1st Dan in 2-3 years? Out of interest, how long does it take in your dojang? And I guess more importantly, if you don't consider 1st Dan to be a pretty beginner rank (how it's viewed in Korea), what does being a 1st Dan mean to you?

 

[HighKick]

The same applies to most high Dan poomsae new movements, in my opinion.

I disagree - I'd be surprised if most people learnt bawi-milgi (boulder push) outside of that poomsae, it's a super rare technique to be used normally. Same with the reverse knifehand guarding block. If those things are regularly drilled (along with all of the other basics, and sparring, and self-defence, and poomsae) then the classes must be about 5 hours long each

This is also a good partial explanation for the longer times between Dan ranks. It is more about the deep dive into the individual movements, not a power/flashy thing.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I agree with @skribs on this one, I completely disagree and think it's a stretch to consider it a varient of that move.

OK, whatever makes you happy.

The purpose is different, the placement of the hands is entirely different (e.g. the "knifehand high block" in jebipoom mok chigi is done to the front in a regular high block position - knifehand edge in a vertical line with the centre line, and in bawi milgi it's not really a knifehand high block at all: it finishes to the side, and with the upper arm much closer to the head than a regular knifehand high block would), and finally the motion used to get there is different (immediate turn of the wrist, pushing to the side rather than "wiping in front of the face").

The idea that moving the position of a knifehand block a couple inches from the position in a form (which is a stylized representation of a single very specific application) makes it no longer a knifehand block is kind of silly.

And in that time you do all the basics for all of the poomsae, plus the poomsae separately (as you said you practice the movements outside of poomsae), plus self-defence and step sparring, plus sparring?

We don't have a one step curriculum. We do forms, drills, sparing, but not everything is done in every class.

Are you referring to giving 1st Dan in 2-3 years? Out of interest, how long does it take in your dojang?

A really good student might manage it in 6, but 8 would be more common.

And I guess more importantly, if you don't consider 1st Dan to be a pretty beginner rank (how it's viewed in Korea),

No, that is how it is viewed in the KKW. The KKW is not all of Korea. It's not even all of TKD.

what does being a 1st Dan mean to you?

We view 1st Dan roughly the same way a KKW school views a 4th Dan. 1st Dans are expected to be able to teach independently.

 

[skribs]

OK, whatever makes you happy.

Ah yes, typical Dirty Dog tactics. When presented with logic, facts, and figures, decides to make it personal.

The idea that moving the position of a knifehand block a couple inches from the position in a form (which is a stylized representation of a single very specific application) makes it no longer a knifehand block is kind of silly.

If you think that's the only difference between these two techniques, then it shows a severe lack of understanding of these two techniques.

You seriously can't tell the difference between a technique moving across an incoming attack with the forearm or blade of the hand; and a technique moving straight forward with the palm? I show 4 year old white belts a knife-hand block and a palm strike, and they can tell the difference between the two.

In the past, you have been blatantly disrespectful of my training, knowledge, and experience. Oh, wait, you've done that in this thread. You've also bragged (in this thread) about how much better your style of TKD is because your black belts held to a higher standard.

But if the teacher can't tell the difference between a knife-hand block and a palm strike, it doesn't matter if you're learning for 2 years or 8 years. You're learning from someone who can't tell the difference between two white belt techniques. Maybe you should tone down your attitude towards other schools, if you're going to make it so blatantly easy to find the problems in yours. There have been one or two times where I have learned something from you. Why can't you be that guy more often?

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you think that's the only difference between these two techniques, then it shows a severe lack of understanding of these two techniques.

Or, perhaps, more understanding.

You seriously can't tell the difference between a technique moving across an incoming attack with the forearm or blade of the hand; and a technique moving straight forward with the palm?

I not only know the differences, but I also know the similarities.

I show 4 year old white belts a knife-hand block and a palm strike, and they can tell the difference between the two.

So you have the same understanding as a 4 year old. Good. It's a start.

 

[skribs]

Or, perhaps, more understanding.

Highly doubtful, based on how often you are incorrect. The only evidence I have of your knowledge is how much you insult others for not knowing what you know. I've never actually seen evidence you know anything.

I not only know the differences, but I also know the similarities.

Your above post would suggest that you don't know the differences.

And the "similarities" are superficial similarities in the ending pose, not the technique itself. You're doubling down on this, which proves you're not just ignorant, you're purposefully ignorant.

So you have the same understanding as a 4 year old. Good. It's a start.

You say this like an insult, but yet you don't even have that level of understanding. Shall I look down on you with the same contempt you hold for everyone else who isn't as smart as you think you are?

 

[skribs]

How did I know Dirty Dog would start laughing at my posts? It's the same tactic you always take.

Step 1: Be wrong.
Step 2: When refuted with facts and logic, make snide personal remarks.
Step 3: When called out for being disrespectful, laugh at the posts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In the past, you have been blatantly disrespectful of my training, knowledge, and experience

I thought I would only hear stuff like this in kung fu circles.

 

[skribs]

I thought I would only hear stuff like this in kung fu circles.

In your opinion, is belt reciprocity a good or bad thing?

When I say "belt reciprocity", I'm mainly looking at the forced reciprocity between KKW schools. If I join another KKW school, I join as a 3rd Dan, because KKW says I'm a 3rd Dan. Opinions on discretionary reciprocity are also welcome, but secondarily to the primary question of forced...

www.martialtalk.com

"It's no secret that I don't have a super high opinion on how your old school was run, based on what you've written here. "

His words.

 

[Flying Crane]

I thought I would only hear stuff like this in kung fu circles.

There used to be a lot of kenpo people here. Those were the days…

 

[JowGaWolf]

There used to be a lot of kenpo people here. Those were the days…

I'm glad I missed it. I had that happen to me twice. it's the fastest way to stop knowledge sharing.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm glad I missed it. I had that happen to me twice. it's the fastest way to stop knowledge sharing.

Politics can be a real beeyotch.