I find this kind of thread to be both
amusing, and a
shame at the same time. Firstly, it is amusing because many of the posters are saying basically the same thing in different ways, thus it sounds like they are disagreeing. Also, some of the "changing parameters" are comical if you take a closer look at them.
However, before I address the amusement in detail, I would like to say why I think this is a shame. We are going to have a wide range of opinions and experiences contributed here. The shame of it is that some of the posters (on both sides of the discussion), are not showing respect to others. Perhaps unconsciously, without intention, they are belittling one another with jabs and insults. Sometimes it is a subtle comment that refutes the other person's belief or the way they phrased their argument.
Yes, we are in pursuit of knowledge and we want to get our facts straight, but at what price? At the price of insulting our friends and respected colleagues. In this thread, I have seen Kacey (a respected and well-liked member of MT) brought to task over the difference of a few inches in her story. Does that really matter as to what she was trying to say? I don't mean to speak on behalf of Kacey, but I have a right to express my opinion, and I think a few people owe Kacey an apology (Don't bother excusing your behavior because you had "good reason" for challenging the specifics of her story - - the way it was done was inexcusable - IMHO!)
As to the comical progression of the question at hand (and I have no intention of doing any back-tracking into another thread for the story where this originated because this thread stands on its own, and the question posed is clearly stated in the OP), let's look at what was asked.
the effectiveness of high kicks to the head. What are your thoughts about high kicks on the street?
Then comes the amusing adjustments of the parameters....
(I'm not going to quote who said what, because that is not really important.)
*seems to me to be rather indicative of the singular weakness of thee as
CQ tactics for self defense.
*wants to pursue them in a nasty confrontation
in a bar.
*The question is whether they are useful in a close-quarters self-defense situation against an
unsought attack by a
dangerous, but
likely street-savvy assailant who's probably not much more than
a foot away from you, and when
every other avenue of escape from the situation has failed.
*But not when the target's
14" or less away from me hand has just
grabbed my shirt or thown
a haymaker at me from that distance.
*
We aren't discussing the feasibility of a kick to the head per se. We're discussing the
feasibility of doing a standing split, in an upright position, on a
bad surface surrounded by
tables/trashcans/jostling bodies/etc. in the
fraction of second you need to terminate the fight.
*
What is at issue is not the possibility of executing high kicks, even high kicks at relatively close range, but the practicality of training for these very risky, difficult moves whose execution at CQ ranges requires, however you slice it, a practitioner's kicking leg to reach a position very near a standing split, whether driven by momentum or anything else,
in the context of a streetfight.
*
What is being debated here is not if a high kick would be effective.
*I'm sorry but
within 18" is not the appropriate range for a high kick much the same way standing 3' to 4' away is not the appropriate range for grappling.
Kosho's question was about high kicks in the street. I would assume he's asking about it's practicality. Is this what you're asking Kosho?
Boy! I'm glad we got that straight - :lol:
Yes, Exile, many of the quotes were yours, but I'm not really intending to pick on you or argue the valid points you made. It just amuses me how the general topic of "high kicks" and their "effectiveness in the street" can become so restricted in the scenarios. :ultracool
This reminds me of an experience I had when I was a young instructor (about 19 years old in 1979). A rough bully at a bar, and his buddy were threatening me, and provoking a fight. I ran the security at this bar, but it was my night off and I was there with a date. The security on duty were Black Belt students of my instructor. After relentless annoyances, I agreed to meet this guy off property in a parking lot. This guy's friend was so confident he told me the fight would be over in a few seconds (actually, I agreed).
At the end of the evening, we each drove to the pre-determined destination (My Black Belt friends came to cover my back in case of foul play). He pulled in riding in his friends van, but the tough talking bully wouldn't step out (I think he believed I wouldn't show). He had found out I was a Black Belt, and told me he wouldn't get out unless I agreed not to use my kicks. I said "you threaten me, challenge me to a fight, then you're going to tell me how to fight?" I knew this would be no match, so I agreed not to kick. He wouldn't get out. Then, I said I would tie one hand behind my back and agree not to kick. He wouldn't get out. His friend became embarrassed and drove the van away. :lfao:
The point is, if we are going to discuss the use of "high kicks," I think it should be left to the kicker as to when, where, and how they would use them. "Scenario: kicks are not effective in self defense because if you try to balance on one leg on a snow covered hill of greater than 35 degree incline, while wearing rubber soul tennis shoes, and carrying 52 lbs of groceries, while facing West, into an Easterly wind of 23 mph or greater...."
Reality check - - almost any Martial Artist of significant knowledge is going to use the appropriate technique (hand, foot, knee, elbow, head, stance, takedown, etc) at the proper time, on the proper terrain, so let's dispense with the "it is not a good idea because a,b, or c could go wrong."
As to crowded bars, I have worked this environment for many years, and was the director of security at a nightclub for seven years. I have seen lesser skilled Martial Artists who were trouble makers use high kicks successfully against other people in fights (and no, they weren't drunk). I have also used high kicks quite successfully (a couple of them were drunk, but still dangerous).
My introduction to kicking in Taekwondo came from an assistant instructor I had in my early training. He was a 16 year old 2nd Dan, and was phenomenal with his kicks. He was short, and slight in build (a real bully target) One night, at a McDonald's a guy the size of football lineman picked a fight with him in the parking lot. The guy punched, my friend blocked with a forearm, and did a jump-spin wheel kick that passed the guys nose by less than an inch (intentionally missing), and landed in a fighting stance. The guys eyes got real wide, turned white as a ghost, then turned and walked away (I did not witness the event, but trust those who did).
I'm trained as a kicker, but I will agree with much of what has been said that l would only use a high kick in the street if the situation was right, and the opportunity presented itself. Being very good at kicking, I can usually make the opportunity present itself. One misconception that has been brought up is the ease, and safety of punching over kicking. Here, I would disagree, but it does depend on the person defending. If your muscles do not stretch well, or you have not trained to kick high, then a "high section kick" in the street would be out of the question (setting aside the reality of preferring to kick low to cause the opponent to bend over first, or taking them down then kicking the head - - I prefer that method too!)
On the other hand (or foot), one can only speak to one's own abilities and personal preferences. To say that kicking to the head at a high level target in the street is "too risky," "dangerous," "impractical," etc., is not to understand the skill involved as well as an expert. A fight is "risky" but any technique thrown makes you vulnerable, but kicks are not more risky because risk is reduced when expert knowledge is applied at the optimum timing. Now, I don't disagree with the "experts" that exile quotes, because I do not know them personally, and I have no knowledge of what their full training in kicking might entail.
However, if someone says that kicking high is a bad idea, then I would agree that "
their experience" of kicking high was a bad one. Did they actually try it, and it failed? If so,
how many times before they said this isn't working? Why wasn't it working? Did they use the wrong kick at the wrong distance, or kick on a poor surface and fell, or had too many objects or people around them and couldn't get their leg up to the target? Were they great street-fighters/bar bouncers/cops/military soldiers, but not truly "experts" at kicking? I know this is possible - - I have had a few like that as students of mine (I train bouncers/LEO/military/executive protection personnel).
If a person is in a wheel chair with legs amputated, then they will say that kicks are not a good idea (at least not for them). If a person can kick, but trains more to kick low, then High Kicks are not a good idea. If they are experts at kicking high, but don't have much training or experience at how to use it in real-life, then they might not do well at its application. It does not take a world-class athlete, or a "Chuck Norris" type to be successful. It takes the proper training, and the proper application.
Ok, Don, I enjoyed your tongue-in-cheek approach to stating the obvious...
CIRCUMSTANCES THAT ALLOW FOR KICKING HIGH TO THE HEAD
1. Fight someone else who is also trying to kick high to the head.
2. Become a world class grappler so that people will be weary of getting too close to you then surprise them with that flashy high kick finish you've been working on.
3. You are Chuck Norris.
4. Fake them out. Use hand gestures. Kick them in the legs a few times so they think the high kick is gonna be to the legs. Make a funny face.
5. Your opponent is drunk.
(As long as they're drunk and you're not, you should have time for your high kick to the head.)
6. Your opponents back is turned.
7. Use a throw, a takedown, or some pesky hand techniques to get them down to the ground then wait for them to get back up and as soon as they do--- Kick them high to the head!!! This way you won't have to worry about those pesky throws, takedowns, or hand techniques.
(note my red highlight. Just how much time do you think it takes for a kick to the head? Mine are not super-human, but get there faster than a block.)
Yes, there are many situations which aide in the application of a High Kick, and they all make sense (especially #4) Isn't that what we're supposed to do - - distract them first? You know, there are really skilled pick-pockets who can remove your wallet, watch, jewelry, etc., without you even knowing it. Now, they don't say to you, "I'm going to take your valuables, see if you can detect it, and stop me." Yet, millions of people fall victim to their skills every year.
In a real fight, not every opponent is an "expert at hand-to-hand." In all my years of training (45+), I have encountered very few opponents who were Martial Artists at all, and have yet to face an "expert." Perhaps the real experts know better than to fight unnecessarily. The vast majority of opponents, I could have told them what I was going to do, and they still would not have succeeded in avoiding it. Opponents in the street don't know I'm going to kick, and they certainly don't know when it is coming to the head.
Unless you have a unique set if circumstances, where all of your street encounters are against sober, muscular, combat hardened, Martial Art experts, my guess is that the "average opponent" is not going to see a kick coming unless you just don't know what you are doing. It is my experience that a poor kicker, kicks poorly. An expert kicker knows how to apply his craft, and does not need a specific set of circumstances to do it successfully in most street fights (parking lots, bowling alleys, bars, theaters, etc). I have found that when a fight breaks out in a wall-to-wall crowded bar, there is still the phenomenon that people back off and form a circle with enough room for a fight to take place, but if not - - then don't kick high there (also - don't go there anymore - lol).
As to "close quarters" High Kicks, I have used them, and it is not risky if done right. One example (which has been alluded to) can be seen in "A Force of One" with Chuck Norris and Bill "Superfoot" Wallace. Bill is fighting another opponent in the ring, and is against the ropes. He leans back, flings the hook kick up and nails the guy in the back of the head. This does work in the street. Another scenario is when I was being punched rapidly by a guy at close range. I blocked, and stood within arms reach as I brought my right roundhouse over his shoulder and smacked him in the side of the head. He never saw it coming, I was never off balance, and I could have used those "pesky hand techniques" of his as a control option if I wanted.
The risky think about punching is that you have to get your own face close to your opponent. If you miss, you are vulnerable to a counter-strike. Kicking (even to the head) is designed to "reach" an opponent who is still out of range of the hands, thus you remain relatively safe. As to comparing the speed of a punch to a kick, remember that an opponent knows to stand outside your arms reach, thus any punch has to be accompanied by closing the distance (telegraphing), so not likely to land.
Conversely, a kick can be within range without the opponent realizing it, and reach the head before the brain can react. You don't pose, and stand for long, and you don't risk balance unless you are slow and don't know how to strike effectively. Plus, a kick that goes "south" is not the end of all things. I can think of a hundred things an opponent can do against my kick, and I prevent most of them, but even if they are lucky, I can think of a hundred ways to hurt them "
bad" as a counter to whatever they do during my kick.
Ok,
This has got to be one of the funniest threads I have ever read.
DArnlod - the points you made in your post were absolutely, without question,
brilliant (and not just because I agree with them). I saw that your profile says you are a "VI Dan" and I was not surprised. Not to throw the issue of rank around here (tacky), but it sometimes takes a high ranking expert of a subject to fully grasp the insights as you presented them, even if others don't see it the same way (I don't mean that in a demeaning way to anyone else, so keep cool everyone).
The only problem is that you did so with the harshness of an "expert" imparting their knowledge on the "less knowledgeable" (an offense that I repeat far too often). Although I believe you have a lot to offer here, and I would like to get to know you better, it is a fact that survival in this forum means that you might want to tone down the brash approach and sarcastic quips. I, for one, would like to see you stick around and share your knowledge with all of us, and compare it with what I have experienced.
CM D.J. Eisenhart
) and from almost day one was advised that high kicks were probably not your best option in 'street fighting' (Lord, how I hate that term 
).
). We trained them into reflex just like all the other techniques. 
