High Kicks to the Head

[foot2face]

Thanks for the compliment.



Lack of years? Not likely, as I've been training for 21yrs., which IMHO, has provided me with quite a bit of time to learn how to kick properly. 2 of the arts I train in, Kenpo and Arnis, are both known for their low line kicks. As I said in my first post, during sparring sessions, I've pulled off many high kicks. Keep in mind again, as I said, this was during sparring and while wearing a loose fitting gi. If I get countered or make a mistake, I'm not in any danger, compared to defending myself on the street.

Additionally, keep in mind, some people are naturally not flexable. This is not due to not stretching, but just body genetics. As I said, it has nothing to do with not being able to do it, its my choice not to. If a high kick is not done carefully, it can and will be telegraphed. A skilled fighter will take advantage of that.




So you think I was criticizing high kickers or TKD which is known for high kicks? Sir, I suggest you re-read my post, as I've said nothing negative about either high kickers or TKD. You state that you've read many of my posts. If thats the case, then you must've seen me say many times that all arts have something to offer. Additionally, I've stated many times that if I can borrow something that I find useful and add it to my bag of tricks, that is what I do.

All that being said, as I stated originally, its my choice to not do them. If the opportunity presented itself, I'd take advantage of it, but to limit myself to just high kicks, when there are a number of good targets below the belt is not something I choose to do.

Mike

Mike, please understand my comments were in no way directed towards you, I tried to convey this but obviously failed. I was merely making use of your words. The point I was trying to make is that there is a distinction between being a very good kicker, which I'm sure you are, and having extensive and specific training. Your master standing in front of you drilling you over and over for what seems like a million times, on the hundreds of ways to bring your foot to an other mans head.
By any standard, I'm good with my hands, but I'm confident that I have no where near the proficiency that you have as such an experienced practitioner of Kempo and Arnis. It's simply a difference of philosophy and training.

Again please understand my previous remarks were not directed towards you, just the phrase "It is my preference."

Respectfully- Foot2Face

 

[Marginal]

That's one heck of a timing you talk about. I was under the impression that in the story Kacey related the attacker was walking not running towards Terry.

That would make it a little easier rather than harder IMO. (As long as the guy wasn't paying much attention to the legs while he was approaching. By the sound of it, he was more interested in pockets etc.)

Again all these distances are factored without hip projection which is essential to generate power!!

Mmmm... Hip projection's not really important in that particular kick. Most of the kick's focused straight up, the ball of hte foot's a small point of focus anyway, and the power's largely generated by the momentum of the knee traveling upward. You don't need much more than that to mess up someone's jaw in this case.

So assuming that the distance was just a little within arm's reach (which I usually consider to be close range) instead of a specific distance like 18", I don't find the mechanics unbeleiveable.

 

[bluemtn]

Just to clear up a few questions: high kick not a front kick, it does not follow the same trajectory, and yes, it starts by bringing the knee as high as possible so the foot can then move up in a straight line - which is how I can kick above my head with it - with power and focus, despite all those who say it cannot happen. No, I don't believe Terry exaggerated or mistook the distances.

That would make it a little easier rather than harder IMO. (As long as the guy wasn't paying much attention to the legs while he was approaching. By the sound of it, he was more interested in pockets etc.)

Mmmm... Hip projection's not really important in that particular kick. Most of the kick's focused straight up, the ball of hte foot's a small point of focus anyway, and the power's largely generated by the momentum of the knee traveling upward. You don't need much more than that to mess up someone's jaw in this case.

Sorry get a little off task here, but now I'm curious as to what kick it is. Again, I'm not saying such kicks are useless, just my prefference, and at close range, is somewhat discouraged where I go. Perhaps it's something I can work on for myself, and learn on my own and come to my personal conclusion.

Is it like a crescent kick, but where it comes from is different, or am I off? Feel free to p.m. me...

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Personnely, I don't kick much in the first place. I'm too top heavy really. I have the flexiblity and balance, but not enough balance to try it too much. I have however seen a video of a Tae Kwon Do guy (WTF I think) doing a jump spinning hook kick to his opponents head. The guy went down, and stayed there. Out cold after ONE kick (who says Tae Kwon Do/Karate isn't real?). If only I could post attachments.

But not getting that kick off successfully could spell disasterous mistake for the person who threw the kick. Once your foot is off the ground, you're at risk. The higher off the ground, the greater the risk.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Like any other technique, high kicks work better for some people than others; if they work for you (and I know plenty of people they work for - me included, for some kicks) - GREAT! If they don't work for you, but they are part of your MA, learn them, improve them as best they can, and gain strength and flexibility from the practice... and maybe, someday, they will work. Maybe they won't - but they won't if you don't try.

Also like any other technique, if you tell yourself high kicks don't work, and therefore don't practice them - or don't practice them as if they work - then they won't. Everyone has techniques they prefer - techniques that work for them for whatever reason - and they tend to practice those techniques the most, and therefore those techniques continue to get better, and work better, than the techniques they don't like and therefore don't practice as often or as hard.

Kosho's question was about high kicks in the street. I would assume he's asking about it's practicality. Is this what you're asking Kosho?

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

So assuming that the distance was just a little within arm's reach (which I usually consider to be close range) instead of a specific distance like 18", I don't find the mechanics unbeleiveable.

Specifically, if said kick is delivered with my own arm and hand outstretched in front of me the foot would touch the bottom of the knuckles on the palm. I measured this distance and this is 30" (it would be 36" with hip projection which you say is not necessary). If you read the post you quoted more thoroughly you'd see I already said I could see that working with a walking attacker. That's not close range fighting and certainly not the 12" -18" range Kacey is claiming. That kick delivered at 18" requires a standing split and the attacker closing in at 15mph. Or if we're to use leaning so we can extend our 21" lever (knee to foot) even with knee to chest one would have to lean back 12" to 16" to bring the foot up from chamber. Read my last post and think about the numbers.

Let me lay out my view on striking ranges.
Long Range: 30" to 44" Kicking to waist level or higher only.
Mid Range: 20" to 32" Most Hand techniques, Kicking from knee to waist level, and wrist grabs.
Close Range: 1" to 19" Collapsed hand techniques, elbows, forearms, knees, kicks to the knees or lower, and grappling.

_Don Flatt

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Kosho's question was about high kicks in the street. I woud assume he's asking about it's practicality. Is this what you're asking Kosho?

I was checking out the thread in the TKD forum about Forms/Pooms and it morphed into a debate about the effectiveness of high kicks to the head. What are your thoughts about high kicks on the street?

yes.

_Don Flatt

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Then you don't know - or don't train - the right kicks, and that's your choice. But I know plenty of people who do. Here's an example:

Terry, a BB I knew when I started TKD as a white belt was walking back to his car from class. He had his gym bag in one hand, and his briefcase in the other. He was approached by 2 men, one of whom said "D'you have any change?" The other man had started to fade to Terry's rear as the first man attempted to panhandle.

Terry said no, and the first man said "D'you have any bills I can have?"

Terry said no again, and the first man (who was now within grabbing distance) said "The you'll have to give me everything you have!" and reached out to grab Terry by the front of his shirt.

Terry placed 1 high kick (like a front kick, but the target is parallel to the ground - and it's a short range kick, really only effective within 18" or so) under the first guy's chin; the first guy was unconscious before he hit the sidewalk. Terry whirled around to hit the second guy, but he was already gone.

His story was corroborated by a woman who was just leaving a nearby office building, who saw the whole thing and ducked back in to call the police.

As I recall, Terry was 5'9" or 5'10" - from the description he gave, the guy he knocked out was about 6'.

As I said - if you don't believe it, you won't train it, and if you don't train it, then it won't work. This isn't saying it will work for everyone - I never said that - but just because you've got all these references who say it can't work, doesn't mean it can't - it means it can't work for them. It also means that you are placing false limitations on yourself - and that's your choice; high kicks aren't for everyone. But they can work in a self defense situation - and that's not a book reference, that's my knowledge of an actual event in which a high kick was the only technique thrown - at short range. Make of it what you will - just remember that no reference, however good, can cover every person's experiences.

This would fall under the banner of "Total Surprise" don't you think?

 

[seasoned]

I have seen people kicked in the head in the dojo and I have seen people kicked in the knee in the dojo also. Head kick, not always effective because of hand and arm defense, but knee kicks “holy cow”. When in the
street we wear American clothing not gi’s or all the loose garb they wear in the karate movies. If I want to minimize someone’s movement then the leg it is. Of course I speck from a traditional perspective with GoJu
kata as my base of reference. I guess it all depends on our style and comfort zone. If I taught a 8 week self defense course to people in street clothes, which would be practical in street clothes, then low kicks it has to be. I wouldn't dream of taking a little old ladies 40.00 for the self defense course and then teach her a head kick. Just some of my thoughts on the subject and ofcourse just my opinion.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I re-read Kaceys story and noticed something.

Terry, a BB I knew when I started TKD as a white belt was walking back to his car from class. He had his gym bag in one hand, and his briefcase in the other. He was approached by 2 men, one of whom said "D'you have any change?" The other man had started to fade to Terry's rear as the first man attempted to panhandle.

Terry said no, and the first man said "D'you have any bills I can have?"

Terry said no again, and the first man (who was now within grabbing distance) said "The you'll have to give me everything you have!" and reached out to grab Terry by the front of his shirt.

When someone is within grabbing distance (18" or less) one does not need to reach out to grab. One only needs to simply grab. Remember, I'm 5' 9 1/2" as tall as Terry in the story yet apparently shorter than his attaker, my elbow to fingertips measures 18". If Terry, says his attacker reached for him then he was clearly further than 18" and at a minimum of 2' to 2 1/2' (30"). If you read this post http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=818269&postcount=33 you will see again it's consistent with these findings. I can see the timing of this defenese working at that distance but it's not close range fighting.

Terry placed 1 high kick (like a front kick, but the target is parallel to the ground - and it's a short range kick, really only effective within 18" or so) under the first guy's chin; the first guy was unconscious before he hit the sidewalk. Terry whirled around to hit the second guy, but he was already gone.

His story was corroborated by a woman who was just leaving a nearby office building, who saw the whole thing and ducked back in to call the police.

As I recall, Terry was 5'9" or 5'10" - from the description he gave, the guy he knocked out was about 6'.

Terry's description of the distances involved at 18" is not consistent with the rest of the story. An attacker reaching for a grab is not within 18".

Retell me the story and substitute 26" to 30" for the distance and I will no longer have a dispute. Please stop trying to pass off a high kick to the head as a close range defense.

High kicks can work under the right circumstances but in close (18" or less) is not one of them.


_Don Flatt

 

[MJS]

Mike, please understand my comments were in no way directed towards you, I tried to convey this but obviously failed. I was merely making use of your words. The point I was trying to make is that there is a distinction between being a very good kicker, which I'm sure you are, and having extensive and specific training. Your master standing in front of you drilling you over and over for what seems like a million times, on the hundreds of ways to bring your foot to an other mans head.
By any standard, I'm good with my hands, but I'm confident that I have no where near the proficiency that you have as such an experienced practitioner of Kempo and Arnis. It's simply a difference of philosophy and training.

Again please understand my previous remarks were not directed towards you, just the phrase "It is my preference."

Respectfully- Foot2Face

No worries. The high kicking was usually something done as I said, just during sparring, ie: low/high combo kicks, etc. I can't think of any of the SD techniques in which a kick is more than chest height. Like you said, if this was something that I trained on a more regular basis, I'd probably be better at it.

Thanks for the good discussion.

Mike

 

[MJS]

But not getting that kick off successfully could spell disasterous mistake for the person who threw the kick. Once your foot is off the ground, you're at risk. The higher off the ground, the greater the risk.

I've had this happen to me on more than one occassion, with an axe kick and roundhouse kick. Like I said, timing and telegraphing are things to keep in mind, and I apparently didn't take that into consideration at the time, so the person I was sparring caught both kicks and easily could've dumped me but didn't.

Good points though.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Specifically, if said kick is delivered with my own arm and hand outstretched in front of me the foot would touch the bottom of the knuckles on the palm. I measured this distance and this is 30" (it would be 36" with hip projection which you say is not necessary). If you read the post you quoted more thoroughly you'd see I already said I could see that working with a walking attacker. That's not close range fighting and certainly not the 12" -18" range Kacey is claiming. That kick delivered at 18" requires a standing split and the attacker closing in at 15mph. Or if we're to use leaning so we can extend our 21" lever (knee to foot) even with knee to chest one would have to lean back 12" to 16" to bring the foot up from chamber. Read my last post and think about the numbers.

Let me lay out my view on striking ranges.
Long Range: 30" to 44" Kicking to waist level or higher only.
Mid Range: 20" to 32" Most Hand techniques, Kicking from knee to waist level, and wrist grabs.
Close Range: 1" to 19" Collapsed hand techniques, elbows, forearms, knees, kicks to the knees or lower, and grappling.

_Don Flatt

Interesting points about the distance and the speed in which the attacker is closing on us. Even during sparring, I've landed side kicks and while they landed, due to the opponents force, you still get moved back some.

As for close range...for myself, I consider that to be within arms reach. If I can touch the person or clinch with them, I don't see how I would be able to bring my foot high enough to kick to the head.

Mike

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Interesting points about the distance and the speed in which the attacker is closing on us. Even during sparring, I've landed side kicks and while they landed, due to the opponents force, you still get moved back some.

As for close range...for myself, I consider that to be within arms reach. If I can touch the person or clinch with them, I don't see how I would be able to bring my foot high enough to kick to the head.

Mike

My feelings as well. Any frontward kick would be jammed in chamber or shortly after. Side kicks would be jammed in the same way. A rear leg roundhouse would at best catch on an arm. The best bet would be an outside-in crescent but then you still have bear in mind how long your on one foot with an attacker so close and it's hard to imagine them standing still for that long in the event they blocked the kick or it didn't have enough force to knock them out. The crescent is not the fastest or most poweful of kicks.

_Don Flatt

 

[exile]

Specifically, if said kick is delivered with my own arm and hand outstretched in front of me the foot would touch the bottom of the knuckles on the palm. I measured this distance and this is 30" (it would be 36" with hip projection which you say is not necessary). If you read the post you quoted more thoroughly you'd see I already said I could see that working with a walking attacker. That's not close range fighting and certainly not the 12" -18" range Kacey is claiming. That kick delivered at 18" requires a standing split and the attacker closing in at 15mph. Or if we're to use leaning so we can extend our 21" lever (knee to foot) even with knee to chest one would have to lean back 12" to 16" to bring the foot up from chamber. Read my last post and think about the numbers.

This tallies exactly with various experiments I've been trying with these kicks.

In dobok bottoms, I can get my knee, at maximum height (where my quads are up against my upper body) around 5"-6" inches from my chest. From what I've observed of my fellow TKDists, none of them, no matter how many years of training they've done, can get much closer than 4" or so at max height. My lower leg is a bit more than 22" long. That means that at some point, when my lower leg is perpendicular to the line of my body, my kicking leg will be extended 28". If the assailant is any closer than that, my foot will contact him—at the highest!—at the point on his body corresponding to the height at which my leg is extended. Assuming he's my height, I'm going to be contacting him at a height a little below the shoulder. This is under perfect, even artifical conditions. To kick any height so that I would not be contacting him `on the way up', I would have to lean back at an angle that would leave me unacceptably off balance.

But when people talk about practicality for street defense, they're talking about not two feet and a few inches; they're talking about toe-to-toe or maybe a little more separation. I can't say I've had a lot of such confrontations—that, btw, is why I appeal to the experience of people who routinely have them, people whose professions require their involvement in serious violence, collectively, several times a week over, say, a 10-year career—but in none of the ones I have been involved in would anything over 12" have been anything but preemptive striking range. In every case, the fight was initiated from very close up, by a would-be sucker punch, a shoving action, or a grab.

Let me lay out my view on striking ranges.
Long Range: 30" to 44" Kicking to waist level or higher only.
Mid Range: 20" to 32" Most Hand techniques, Kicking from knee to waist level, and wrist grabs.
Close Range: 1" to 19" Collapsed hand techniques, elbows, forearms, knees, kicks to the knees or lower, and grappling.

_Don Flatt

I think Don's estimate of close range is definitely in the ballpark, possibly even a little bit generous; a foot or so is, from my own experience, much closer to the expected range, and people who, however unwillingly, actually engage in street combat with others for a living—people who know something about streetfighting based on years of doing it on a regular basis for a living—typically give around a foot as the `close range' at which physical attacks start. Unless we're talking about preemptive striking, any kick which extends the leg much beyond a foot/foot and a half is going to contact the attacker's body at that range.

Now factor in relatively constricting street clothes, street shoes, uneven surfaces, undependable areal illumination and all the other factors people who actually do this stuff for a living caution us about, and the reasons they identify high kicks to the head as excessively risky might become apparent. They're not talking about your skill in throwing them into the air or in sparring situations in dojangs; they're talking about what they themselves have repeatedly experienced as a result of their... career choices. When people talk about `training' these kicks, are they talking about training them, repeadedly in live combat practice which closely simulates an actual streetfight? In realistic scenarios not with opponents, but `designated attackers' whose moves you have no prior idea about and who can do virtually anything to you, operate in any way, that a violent, untrained assailant will—i.e., stage 4 of Abernethy's `kata-based sparring', as kidswarrior summarized here? How many people actually train anything, any tech, this way on a regular basis? So when people say they `train high kicks for SD', how much realistic `SD' actually comes into that training—actually meets that standard of realism? Because, while it may seem obvious, it's probably as well to point out that that training standard is the minimum standard of training which will actually allow you to ingrain your SD techs for actual use at the next stage of `training'... namely, the extremely nasty, dangerous real thing.

If a professional boxer tells me that punching with both arms at once is a very bad idea, I'm not going to try to counter that advice by reporting the single occasion when I did that to an opponent and won with it. And if a half a dozen professional boxers tell me the same thing—and no seventh one in the conversation challenged their view—I think anyone who heard me reply that their problem was that they `didn't train for it' and so couldn't make it work(, but that if I, a complete non-boxer, train for it, I can make it work) would just shake their head at me, and justifiably so. Because these guys box for a living, and I don't. And in the present discussion, the issue is not MA expertise, the issue is practical street combat expertise—whether you fight in real, typically chaotic situation frequently. There are plenty of highly competent MAists who do not engage in violence professionally. I would guess that most of MT's membership, or a good chunk of it, falls into that category. And there are other highly competent MAists who routinely use their MA skills in violent situations on a regular, sometimes daily basis; our LEO members, for example, or people who work as `gatekeepers' in rough surroundings. Some of these people have taken the trouble to lay out in detail exactly why, tactically, high kicks to the head are way more trouble than they're worth, no matter how hard you train them, when you're in what Geoff Thompson calls the pavement arena. These guys train beyond stage 4: they're at stage 5—actual regular, messy, brutal conflict with angry, drunk, drugged-up or just pathological attackers. Opposing what non-professionals report, or believe about the applicability of their art to what people who do this stuff for a living report is, therefore, hardly opposing `experience' to `theory', or even opposing two sets of equally representative experience. It's opposing the experience of people whose `going to work' will involve, on any given day, dangerous attacks by violent individuals with those of us who train, and perhaps teach, MAs as our avocation and `go to work' in offices, classrooms, factories, and all the other places where one doesn't enounter that kind of violence. If people whose jobs of are the former variety caution you against something involving street defense, it seems to me worth paying very close attention to, just as it is when your doctor, looking at some innocent-seeming mole on your face, tells you you need it biopsied right away. Even if it looks innocent to you, even if you've ignored odd-looking moles in the past that indeed did turn out to be innocent, just how good an idea is it to ignore what your MD is telling you?

Obviously, no one is saying you must pay attention to that advice, or the advice of people who have a knowledge of real-time violence very few MAists, as good as they are, possess. If you don't want to believe what these people are saying, or even take the trouble to find out what it is, well, that's up to you.

 

[Kacey]

Could I be off on the distance? Certainly. Does that change the fact that a high kick to the head was effective in a self-defense situation? Not at all - and that was the original question, sparked in the thread this came from - could kicks to the head really work in a self-defense situation. All of the discussion about distance and angles and everything else saying why it couldn't have worked does not change the fact that it did work... and therefore I see no reason to respond further to those who say it can't.

As far as distancing goes - well, first of all, I don't necessarily agree with the ranges given, and secondly, there's nothing that says a technique can't be at least somewhat effective even if it's not fully extended. Have you ever been kicked by a knee instead of a foot? Been kicked by a side kick that was "too close" (in that it couldn't be fully extended)? Been kick with a shin or calf because the kicker was "too close" (in that the kicking foot was past the target)? I have... and while they may not do as much damage as intended, or in exactly the place intended, they call still hurt, and still cause damage - and isn't that the point?

As far as those things that can't be explained through graphs, diagrams, geometry, whatever science you choose to apply - those are the things that make this an art. Some things cannot be explained from a purely scientific viewpoint - lifting a car off an injured person is theoretically impossible under normal circumstances - but under abnormal circumstances, people have managed to do it... or perhaps the art is in advance of the science that could someday explain it, just as science has now explained how people can lift cars when they really, really need to.

 

[14 Kempo]

I believe kicking to the head is valid in a fight situation ... of course, for me, that is after I've buckled them with a kick to the groin. However, even in this situation, being a Kempoist, I would most likely drop them with a hand strike from this position, or maybe a knee to the face.

In a practice situation, kicks to head level are conceivable, balance is comprimised while on one foot, especially with the other foot some 6 feet off the ground, but again, it is practice. There is no doubt that TKD, and other kicking arts, practitioners are much more effective kicking to higher levels, I truly believe that, kicking is thier art's way. As a Kempoist, my training has me trying to be in a body check situation with a kicker, constantly checking legs, pinning arms and striking to vital areas. (I've never studied TKD or another art of that type, so I know I'm making assumptions, don't quote please)

Don't get me wrong here, I'm in no way saying that a kicking art would not have a chance against a Kempoist, what I am saying is that I try to jam them, keep them off balance, take their favorite weapons away ... but then again, they are trying to do what they do best and it can go either way at any given time! It's a matter of space, they want to work from their space and range, I'm trying to work from mine. Whoever finds it, has a better chance of coming out on top in that particular confrontation. With most ranked kicking artists, it can very often only take one good shot.

 

[DArnold]

Ok,
This has got to be one of the funniest threads I have ever read.
The people who say this won't work are the same people on this thread who keep saying... I don't understand, I don't understand. Yet expouse that they are experts and try to spout supposed facts, which are pure subjective assumptions about things they don't understand. (Because they read in a book somewhere, don't understand...)

Which just porved the posts on the first page that they don't train enough with high section kicks to understand how they work. To try and teach you on a web page would be the same as those who say, by my book it will show you which techniques are valid and work. HA Sales pitch

First off, there is a big difference between a high kick and a high section kick. As a high kick is an actual kick itself, and a high section kick is anything thrown with a target above the shoulders.

1) Still_learning - you have shown the most wisdom with you post which these pundant advocates against high kicks missed on the first page.

2) Searcher - Yes your comment about the high kicks being dangerious are true. However, how is this different from your hands? Do you not train your techniques at a focus point. If I punch you in the temple, sternum, or knife hand you in the Vegas nerve, what would also be the reaction? Leg, hand, elbow, no difference.

3) Nebuchadnezzar - But not getting that kick off successfully could spell disasterous mistake for the person who threw the kick. Once your foot is off the ground, you're at risk. The higher off the ground, the greater the risk.

some responses:

one - DUH, same disasterous mistake if you punch someone in the pectoral vs the sternum. Or get your hand technique jammed...

two - what makes you think I kick that slow?

three -what makes you think I am going to just stand their like a stork with my leg up in the air - after you puch do you just leave your arm out?

four - Or kick you two, three, ... times in other vital spots?

4) Kosho - you say you practice things you don't use. That seems a waste of time to me.

Also your difinitions of distances are off. I can crescent kick you in the head when your face is 6" away from mine. I can lean back or forward when I do any kick but my leaning is not a stationary variable either. I can lean back when I pick up my leg and I can lean forward when my heel is on your temple.

So for a short lesson:
High Section Kicking is all a matter of radius from your waist. Therefore, by the laws of physics the most powerful kicks are parallel to the ground (or slightly lower - where we power break) as the most power you can impart is at a right angle to your target. This is why most older hard styles do not kick above the waist and is why TKD is a leader in this aspect.
However, I do not need to fold a heavy bag in half in order to drop you when I kick you in the head. I mearly use a basic principal called focus as the mass of my leg will do the trick!

What you need to understand is that by the sheer physical definition that I gave you most all high section kicks ARE close range. Heck, I can even hook kick you in the back of the head while we are in a clinch.

And can I kick straight up, sure can, most people can, as there is a big difference in kicking straight up and holding my leg straight up (tense muscles vs. relaxed muscles) By yellow belt I can have a good 80% of my students kicking straight up.

So the fact that most here don't know the difference in the trajectory between a high kick and a front kick (and I don't mean a high section kick, I mean a high kick because there is no such thing as a high front kick - it is a physical impossibility) shows the lack of knowlege of high section kicking.

5) Seasoned - You talked about kicking to the knee - what is a non dangerious focal point on the knee vs a non dangerious focal pt on the head. So you say the knee was more affective? What if the knee is not an open target but the head is?? Are you now SOL? A target is mearly a target (Mushashi - Book of five rings)


To end, as far as Exile, You slay me the most as you have read books by bar bouncers that don't use high kicks. Therefore you state this as it must be fact, based on books, and people who are not experts in the subject of high section kicks, that this must be true.

Exile tends to state things as fact which are mearly supposition and then the "you must prove me wrong" statement.

Well, the one example by Kacey just proved you wrong... and then when proved wrong changes the subjec to minor, moot points such as balance and distenceing and I don't get it, and I don't understand. Then you are going to have a boxer tell me about Martial arts punching - Don't think so. That would be like me telling a boxer he needs to kick - Nope, doesn't work that way either. Reguardless of the change of subject, your assumption was proven wrong.

For every example you give, one can be given in counter. You can not change the goal line just because you don't like the results!

The problem is that when debating affectiveness/validity/realism it should never be based on:
- your opinion
- if someone likes something
- if someone doesn't understand something
- if someone outside of a field (claiming to be an expert) wrote a book about something and discredited something they don't understand(high section kicking)

Shoot, didn't we see this when there were people writing that the earth was flat?

Just ask anyone who has defended themselves with high kicks and you will get the same shaking of the head, in disbelief, over your assumpitons as you yourself stated.

And for those of you who discard high section techniques because of people touting assumptions based on non-experts, I would be affraid of what other generalizations they would make for you based on thier own opinion. That is why everyone loves the WTF no punching to the face instruction

IMHO - if a technique has/is being used then it is just a matter of how much I practice with it to "if it is good". It is not the technique, it is me. Discarding something based on someones statements who does not have expertise in the field seems just as dangerious as underestimating your opponent.

As my instructor taught me, "Even a bad side kick will hurt you!"

When you use a hammer, every problem looks like a nail
LMAO

 

[exile]

I believe kicking to the head is valid in a fight situation ... of course, for me, that is after I've buckled them with a kick to the groin. However, even in this situation, being a Kempoist, I would most likely drop them with a hand strike from this position, or maybe a knee to the face.

Ditto—from a TKDist.

In a practice situation, kicks to head level are conceivable, balance is comprimised while on one foot, especially with the other foot some 6 feet off the ground, but again, it is practice. There is no doubt that TKD, and other kicking arts, practitioners are much more effective kicking to higher levels, I truly believe that, kicking is thier art's way.

If you practice kicking a lot, you're going to be better at it. But there are inherent problems with high kicking in the chaotic situation of a streetfight on broken or uneven ground or a cluttered environment that have nothing to do with anyone's skill in throwing kicks in a dojang training or tournament sparring situation, or other non-life-threatening situation.

As a Kempoist, my training has me trying to be in a body check situation with a kicker, constantly checking legs, pinning arms and striking to vital areas. (I've never studied TKD or another art of that type, so I know I'm making assumptions, don't quote please)

Don't get me wrong here, I'm in no way saying that a kicking art would not have a chance against a Kempoist, what I am saying is that I try to jam them, keep them off balance, take their favorite weapons away ... but then again, they are trying to do what they do best and it can go either way at any given time! It's a matter of space, they want to work from their space and range, I'm trying to work from mine. Whoever finds it, has a better chance of coming out on top in that particular confrontation. With most ranked kicking artists, it can very often only take one good shot.

I understand what you're saying, K14, but the issue, if you look at the way this thread originated and has progressed, isn't MAist agains MAist. The issue is MAist against belligerant almost-but-not-quite drunk in a pub, who decides that you bother him, or against sadist who decides that he needs to feel good by beating up someone that evening and decides on you, or against road-rage bully who thinks you've cut him off and follows you to your destination—and who's done this sort of thing before... again, please look at my previous post. These are not `contest' situations.

At this point, I'm pretty much inclined to agree with Kosho's request for some visual evidence for the kinds of kicks being talked about, so we have some idea what the distances and scale are. And I'd still like to talk about why we should discount the best advice of people—trained MAists all but also experienced (though unwilling) streetfighters on the basis of individual stories which we're not able to assess—who know what works and doesn't in very close range fighting, because they do it. People who lift cars off their trapped children are not doing the same thing as constructing a Euclidean triangle whose angles sum to 150º. Paul Anderson, maybe the greatest powerlifter of all time, is credited with a back lift of several thousand pounds, easily enough to get a car off a pinned victim, and the accomplishments of the great weightlifters of the past makes it clear that human beings are capable of these feats. But the delivery of very-near-vertical kicks where the minimum distance between the attacker and the defender is less than the sum of the length of the defendent's lower leg plus the distance of the defenders knee to his or her chest... that's what is delicately described in the literatures on pseudoscience and on eyewitness reliability as an `extraordinary claim'. And as the official literature of e.g. the Center for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal puts it, extraordinary claims require extraordinary levels of empirical support.

So far as I can see, then, there is on the one hand a set of anecdotal claims based on unreplicable events that some `miracle' occurred, and on the other hand the collective judgment of self-defense professionals, trained TMAists all with decades of active street violence behind them—a `training' regime which I very much doubt any of us posting on this thread have pursued—who consider high kicks, attempted in nasty, chaotic street conditions in street clothes, to be a very, very bad idea. I know which approach I'd pursue if my life depended on it. But that's just me...

 

[seasoned]

DArnold

I guess the little old Lady scenario didn’t make my point. How about as we get older we begin to lose flexibility. How about my style does not teach high kicks and yours does. How about we take two people with no martial arts experience and train them for 1 day, one with head kicks and the other with knee kicks and see how they do. How about the head is harder to hit and the knees are easier. We could debate this until the cows come home but in the end you will have your opinion and I will have mine. Yes the head is very vulnerable to impact and this I will agree on. I guess what we are talking about here is choice, knee or head. I don’t want to get hit in either place. You sound like a very talented individual, good luck.