Helping Children With Weak Spirit

[dancingalone]

Your student benefits just by participating with a group that is focused and goal-oriented. Those traits alone are missing in some families and thus in some children. Being part of your class is beneficial, even if the results are not apparent yet. I encourage you to have faith in your method, praise the moments of perseverence and spirit that you do see, and do all you can to keep this kid in your program. Even if he does not stay with TKD, your are building a foundation that will help him in the future. Life requires discipline and effort for success, so you are helping.

Thank you for the thoughtful remarks and encouragement. Teaching children is rather new for me, so I am definitely outside of my usual comfort zone.

One of the things I have learned is that although my focus will always be on turning out capable martial artists, with this particular group I can't be disappointed if the final product is not what I set out to make. Perhaps it is like randomly sprinkling different seeds into your garden while you proceed to water, fertilize, and weed it. In the end, whether you have tomatoes or squash or even flowers, it should all be good.

 

[dancingalone]

This was not the first person that went through this same thing. One kid that did test did so after failing in the same way as this kid but came back a year later and pushed himself really hard and passed with flying colors. I even remember his mom thanking us. His 70+ year old grandfather shakes my hand everyday for what we did for his grandson.

There are so many parents at our school that want us to change their kids and ask everyday if we can make them stronger. Not physically but mentally and we just smile and say give it time they will change.

I do not know how old or what belt level the kid is that you are talking about but if he is fairly young and fairly new to TKD just let him have some fun for now, but at some point the rubber will meet the road and he will persevere or quit. You have no control over that. All you can do is give him what he needs. He will do the rest.

Good story. I appreciate you sharing it.

The boy is 10 or 11. He's a beginner like all the other students at this venue. His mother also trains in the class along with big brother. I have told her not to fret about his 'injuries' (she is aware they are mental) and we hope they will fade over over time.

There's an overweight boy in the class that should serve as a good role model for him. He never quits any drill, even though he should reasonably take a breather from time to time. Maybe some of him will wear off onto the other boy.

 

[jthomas1600]

I think the fact that you recognize whats going on and are looking for ways to deal with it as opposed to just dismissing the kid as not being ready or not being tough enough (as many would) for MA is half the battle. I have three kids in TKD and it's been really interesting for me to watch our instructor treat each one differently and effectively. It truly is an art to be developed.

On a related note. I had a job working with "at risk" youth many years ago and one thing my supervisor told me that has stuck was "nothing is more unfair than treating all kids the same". You need to treat them all with equal respect, compassion, etc. but you need to recognize that what motivates good behavior and discourages negative behavior for one kid will not necessarily work for the next.

Good luck.

 

[ATC]

Good story. I appreciate you sharing it.

The boy is 10 or 11. He's a beginner like all the other students at this venue. His mother also trains in the class along with big brother. I have told her not to fret about his 'injuries' (she is aware they are mental) and we hope they will fade over over time.

There's an overweight boy in the class that should serve as a good role model for him. He never quits any drill, even though he should reasonably take a breather from time to time. Maybe some of him will wear off onto the other boy.

No problem. He is still young and only starting so he has plenty of time. Just make sure he is having fun for now and the process will do the rest.

 

[terryl965]

This is to those that believe a child can make the right choice and the parents should let them.

First off I have three wonderful boys that does TKD every single day with me, they had no choice it was mine. I ask my oldest 16 now if I would have let him make his choices when he was younger where does he believe he would be today, his answer was a simple one playing video games and skate boarding al night long. I also ask did he feel he missed anything along the way and his answer was no, because all those kids he thought was cool are no in alternative school and have been in jail a few times. He is proud to be in TKD and he is glad I made that choice for him because he has a dream of the Olympics and being on the National Team as well as competing like he does all over the world. This would never have happen if I let him make a choice he was not ready to make, kids need direction in life and as parents we need to help them in there journey whether child likes it or not, when they get old enough they have all the time in the world to make decission until then my house my rules and yes, military and control freak with my kids.:asian:

 

[Tez3]

This is to those that believe a child can make the right choice and the parents should let them.

First off I have three wonderful boys that does TKD every single day with me, they had no choice it was mine. I ask my oldest 16 now if I would have let him make his choices when he was younger where does he believe he would be today, his answer was a simple one playing video games and skate boarding al night long. I also ask did he feel he missed anything along the way and his answer was no, because all those kids he thought was cool are no in alternative school and have been in jail a few times. He is proud to be in TKD and he is glad I made that choice for him because he has a dream of the Olympics and being on the National Team as well as competing like he does all over the world. This would never have happen if I let him make a choice he was not ready to make, kids need direction in life and as parents we need to help them in there journey whether child likes it or not, when they get old enough they have all the time in the world to make decission until then my house my rules and yes, military and control freak with my kids.:asian:

We are only talking about letting them choose which hobbies and/or sports they choose. I'm not saying let them slob their lives away. Would you really have said absolutely not if he'd been very interested in football (either yours or ours) and was talented? would you have denied him that opportunity by insisting it was TKD or nothing? If he'd tried TKD and totally hated it would you have insisted he carried on no matter how miserable he was doing it? Would you have let him choose another sport or activity instead. In the end does it matter what sport or hobby they choose to do if they remain engaged, work hard at it and enjoy it? Why does it have to be the one you choose instead of giving them a choice of sports/activities to chose from?

You would think I was saying let the kids do nothing and learn nothing from the way some react but I'm not, I'm saying give the children a chance to choose what they'd like to do as a hobby, look at what's available, affordable and do-able for you and tell them to pick the one they like to try, they have to have something to do so why the difficulty in letting them choose? Does it have to be total control over them?

Do you really want to teach children you know don't want to be in your class, that their parents are putting pressure on them to 'perform' correctly and they find it very difficult to do so?

 

[Nomad]

I'm going to agree with both Terry and Tez on this one (wishy-washy, aren't I?)

Kids should absolutely be allowed to choose and follow some of their own interests, and in my opinion, it's also a parent's job to expose their kids to activities (such as team sports, martial arts, etc) that they may find valuable and interesting.

Would I force my child to do something completely against their will? No, I don't like parents who live vicariously through their kids and make them do things they really don't want to do. Besides, if this is the attitude, the likelihood of the child ever becoming good at it are relatively low.

OTOH, I like the attitude of one of our parents who had a child who would occasionally ask to quit karate. This parent would reply "Ok, but not today". Invariably, whatever obstacle or funk the child was in would disappear and he'd become enthusiastic about the activity again in a short period of time. Recognizing that interest and enthusiasm naturally waxes and wanes in any activity over time is important, and parents can help provide the longer term perspective on this that a child often won't see.

As with all things, balance is really important here, and in many ways, the problem people that both Tez and Terry are mentioning in their posts are the extremes who don't get this. At one extreme you have the militaristic parent who forces their child to do an activity without regard to their interests and individuality; at the other end you have parents who really don't encourage their kids to try (or stick with!) anything, and who end up with kids that don't know how to pursue and attain goals, and they often drift into trouble through boredom and lack of guidance.

 

[Tez3]

I'm going to agree with both Terry and Tez on this one (wishy-washy, aren't I?)

Kids should absolutely be allowed to choose and follow some of their own interests, and in my opinion, it's also a parent's job to expose their kids to activities (such as team sports, martial arts, etc) that they may find valuable and interesting.

Would I force my child to do something completely against their will? No, I don't like parents who live vicariously through their kids and make them do things they really don't want to do. Besides, if this is the attitude, the likelihood of the child ever becoming good at it are relatively low.

OTOH, I like the attitude of one of our parents who had a child who would occasionally ask to quit karate. This parent would reply "Ok, but not today". Invariably, whatever obstacle or funk the child was in would disappear and he'd become enthusiastic about the activity again in a short period of time. Recognizing that interest and enthusiasm naturally waxes and wanes in any activity over time is important, and parents can help provide the longer term perspective on this that a child often won't see.

As with all things, balance is really important here, and in many ways, the problem people that both Tez and Terry are mentioning in their posts are the extremes who don't get this. At one extreme you have the militaristic parent who forces their child to do an activity without regard to their interests and individuality; at the other end you have parents who really don't encourage their kids to try (or stick with!) anything, and who end up with kids that don't know how to pursue and attain goals, and they often drift into trouble through boredom and lack of guidance.

Nice post!

The problem people I'm afraid we do have to cope with sometimes as instructors and while we know our own children we often don't know the family dynamics of others. I've seen parents chat nicely to the instructor about their child so that you'd think they were supportive, understanding parents and as soon as they got the child outside the door when they thought no one was watching, well, that mattered anyway, they laid into the child saying he was useless, they'd spent a load of money on him and he was damn well going to practice until he got it right and passed the grading. It was ugly. I've had the parents too who's interest in the child was practically zero.

I agree it's totally the parents job to expose the child to as many experiences and activities as they can, help them make the decision which one they want to do and support that decision. I understand where that parent is coming from when they said you can quit but not just yet, we all get up days and down days, who as an adult hasn't felt like chucking it all in when everything goes wrong? We get over it, so do kids. You have however to know your kid whether it's yours or a student. It's about understanding the child, it's needs and it's wants then getting the right balance as you say.

 

[Gorilla]

Each case is different but I can tell you that MA will help with this issue. All I can offer is one of my own run ins with this. We had this kid who did the bare minimum for each test and class. Did not want to push and basicly looked like crap, but was happy to just be passed along. Were the "bleep" hits the fan is once you make it to 1st kup and have to prepare for 1st poom or 1st dan testing.

At 2nd kup I knew this kid would not make it. He cheated every drill and found ways to not even do (could not do) most of them. Kicks, forms, and every technique just looked like crap. I use to tell him that soon he would be in my world, and that the effort he was giving would not cut it once it was time to prepare for his 1st poom. I get to prepare all 1st kups for their 1st poom or 1st Dan test, along side the master instructor of course.

Now this preparation class as we call it is no joke. It is 6-8 weeks long and for some it is every day. Day one consist of a 6 mile run in the hills. That run also will include many drills at the end of the run and forms and technique practice. It is the worst thing I have ever done as the test is a snap if you can get pass the class. Basically if you make it past the prep class you will pass your test. Don't make the prep class and that is a failed BB test. So in reality this class is part of the test. Make it through and you will test and pass, don't and you will wait another year and will be labeled as failing the test.

Well this kid heard about the class from past participants, just as all color color belts have, and would just drop his head and shy away from me when I would remind him about it. His dad would just smile and say I keep telling him.

Well when it came time for day one of the class he of course could not make through the first day and cried. Not everyday is running and exercising. Most days we drill the heck out of forms and techniques until perfect. We also do Hansosil until second nature also. But you all should know that doing forms and punching and kicking techniques over and over can become quite tiring.

Remember this kid was weak and had the worst techniques possible due to years of just getting by. So we were on him and on him hard. Each day was painful for him and the instructors, as he had to have someone over him an on him for everything. We even had this kid come in 2 hours before his class everyday and he stayed an extra hour after class everyday. This was for 5 day a week for 8 weeks.

Near the end of week 6 he told his dad he wanted to quit, and that he knew he would not test anyways so why go through all this. His dad told him he could quit but he would have to be the one to come and tell the instructors that he was quitting. His dad told us that after he was told that he said well I will just finish then. For some reason this kid did not want to tell us that he wanted to quit. We would have let him no problem. But he stuck it out.

At the end of the 8 weeks I was really impressed with him as his techniques, strength, and attitude did a complete 180. He actually looked like a 1st Kup student after 8 weeks of military type training.

Did he test and pass. No he did not. But he told us that now he is looking forward to next year and testing and passing. He took a lot of crap from us and in the end he saw a different person.

This was not the first person that went through this same thing. One kid that did test did so after failing in the same way as this kid but came back a year later and pushed himself really hard and passed with flying colors. I even remember his mom thanking us. His 70+ year old grandfather shakes my hand everyday for what we did for his grandson.

There are so many parents at our school that want us to change their kids and ask everyday if we can make them stronger. Not physically but mentally and we just smile and say give it time they will change.

I do not know how old or what belt level the kid is that you are talking about but if he is fairly young and fairly new to TKD just let him have some fun for now, but at some point the rubber will meet the road and he will persevere or quit. You have no control over that. All you can do is give him what he needs. He will do the rest.

This was the method they used at the school my kids got their 1st Poom. Grueling 2 month training period with evaluations and dropping those who could not keep up. Those who got through the 2 month training period almost always passed because they weeded out the sub-standard. It is a great method really tests commitment.

 

[Tez3]

This was the method they used at the school my kids got their 1st Poom. Grueling 2 month training period with evaluations and dropping those who could not keep up. Those who got through the 2 month training period almost always passed because they weeded out the sub-standard. It is a great method really tests commitment.

How nice to label children as sub standard.

Guess I should throw half the kids out in my class then, one has mild brain damage, another has learning difficulties, a couple have behaviour problems linked to fathers being in the Army. They aren't going to be up to your high standards of perfection but they work hard, do their best and enjoy it. They aren't brilliant Olympic wannabees they are competent martial artists. I don't cherry pick kids and only take those who can pass the tests. I teach all children who want to learn.

 

[Gorilla]

It's the very fact that I believe children are children that makes me angry that they are treated badly. I don't for one minute believe children are adults so don't put words in my mouth. I said that they should be able to chose their own interests, hobbies and sports. Parents can make the other important decisions but a child needs to be able to explore the activities they want

You did actually say you are forcing children to train in that you won't refuse to teach or even make allowances for those that are being forced to be there. Can you imagine the child who doesn't want to train being stuck between parents who say he/she has to and you who won't make allowances for a child who is miserable training? I will not teach children who are forced to be there by their parents and I will find out whether they are willing or not. I will not contribute to a child's unhappiness.

Of course what I write is irrelevant to you, you are always right. You are the pater familias.

I have had the privilege to meet and observe ATC's children. He has some of the most well rounded/respectful children I have met. They are also incredible Martial Artists. You don't get children like this from bad parenting. My guess is that we all could learn something from Art and how he raises children.

 

[Gorilla]

How nice to label children as sub standard.

Guess I should throw half the kids out in my class then, one has mild brain damage, another has learning difficulties, a couple have behaviour problems linked to fathers being in the Army. They aren't going to be up to your high standards of perfection but they work hard, do their best and enjoy it. They aren't brilliant Olympic wannabees they are competent martial artists. I don't cherry pick kids and only take those who can pass the tests. I teach all children who want to learn.

My son and daughter have mostly trained with adults. Having said that If you are not meeting a standard then you are sub-standard based on that criteria . All students were being taught and some did not meet the standard at that time and did not progress. They would then have to work hard until they met the standard and retest. The lesson is learning how to pick yourself up after you did not reach a goal and keep trying until you succeed.

If you are talking about training kids that have challenges then that is a different matter. I agree with you that training kids with difficulties is a different matter more sensitivity is needed. I am sure that ATC would agree.

 

[Tez3]

I have had the privilege to meet and observe ATC's children. He has some of the most well rounded/respectful children I have met. They are also incredible Martial Artists. You don't get children like this from bad parenting. My guess is that we all could learn something from Art and how he raises children.

Could we? whatever I said about raising children he considered irrelevant.

I haven't been to anyone's martial arts class yet where the children weren't respectful, cheerful and trying their best. I was at a seminar earlier this year where there were children from several clubs and all of them were good kids, they, like me had mixed ability classes. If you believe martial arts is good for children, that they learn a great many life skills from practising it why then are only the most able allowed to train, why are the less able, not the less committed, 'weeded' out?

My class as I said isn't made up of incredible martial artists, some are being the best they can be and you know what, watching a child with brain damage glow because she learnt to do a very creditable self defence technique is amazing.

 

[Tez3]

My son and daughter have mostly trained with adults. Having said that If you are not meeting a standard then you are sub-standard based on that criteria . All students were being taught and some did not meet the standard at that time and did not progress. They would then have to work hard until they met the standard and retest. The lesson is learning how to pick yourself up after you did not reach a goal and keep trying until you succeed.

You said sub standard and now you're backpedalling.
It's a horrid label to put on a young child. Why were they grading if they weren't up to standard? To teach them a lesson? For the grading fees? Is grading all that matters? Oh course that's why there's 10 year old blackbelts and the pressure to perform.
We grade once maybe twice a year like a lot of places I know, we take it slow and steady, what's the rush after all? The parents want the children taught properly, in as much depth as we can teach them not in a belt mill. The belts don't matter, the kids know how well they are doing or not doing without having gradings every couple of months.

 

[Gorilla]

Could we? whatever I said about raising children he considered irrelevant.

I haven't been to anyone's martial arts class yet where the children weren't respectful, cheerful and trying their best. I was at a seminar earlier this year where there were children from several clubs and all of them were good kids, they, like me had mixed ability classes. If you believe martial arts is good for children, that they learn a great many life skills from practising it why then are only the most able allowed to train, why are the less able, not the less committed, 'weeded' out?

My class as I said isn't made up of incredible martial artists, some are being the best they can be and you know what, watching a child with brain damage glow because she learnt to do a very creditable self defence technique is amazing.

I applaud you for teaching kids with disabilities. Really different from what ATC and I were referring to. They did not weed out the less able if you showed the commitment and had the willingness to learn the Instructors would get you there. The reason for the extensive test period was to weed out those who were not committed to getting a BB. If you have the commitment you will reach the standard.

 

[Tez3]

I applaud you for teaching kids with disabilities. Really different from what ATC and I were referring to. They did not weed out the less able if you showed the commitment and had the willingness to learn the Instructors would get you there. The reason for the extensive test period was to weed out those who were not committed to getting a BB. If you have the commitment you will reach the standard.

They are not children with disabilities!

Don't judge them as such! My class is a normal class for children who want to learn martial arts, nothing more, nothing less.

Children will not reach the standard for black belt, we've had this argument before and I daresay it will turn up again but you can push and push the children as much as you like but they are never going to be blackbelt standard. It's like sex, some things are for adults only.

 

[Gorilla]

They are not children with disabilities!

Don't judge them as such! My class is a normal class for children who want to learn martial arts, nothing more, nothing less.

Children will not reach the standard for black belt, we've had this argument before and I daresay it will turn up again but you can push and push the children as much as you like but they are never going to be blackbelt standard. It's like sex, some things are for adults only.

It is almost impossible to have a dialog with you.

You can yell all you want!

 

[ATC]

...Do you really want to teach children you know don't want to be in your class, that their parents are putting pressure on them to 'perform' correctly and they find it very difficult to do so?

Yes, because some children may have been put into the Martial Arts to help them with issues that the parent may not be able to address alone. Parents make choices to raise their kids as they see fit, and if they choose to use the Martial Arts to help with their kids issues who are you or anyone to tell them otherwise. Maybe there is no structure at home and the parent feels they need some and chooses to put them into the Martial Arts for that structure. And if I can help change one kid for the positive, great.

I am really baffled at your narrow thinking. We are here to help but for some reason you don't see it that way.

You tend to skew and twist what is being said to fit your thinking that is not even on the same page as everyone else.

All I can say is, sorry you feel how you do. I stand by what we are doing. Some kids are in it for their own reason but many are not and they too have a reason why they are there, be their own reason or someone else's.

Dancing seems to have asked the question to find out how he can help this child not just tell him if this is not what you want to do then please leave. I am sure that everyone is free to not be there if they don't want to be, but if they are there then he should do his best to help them be the best they can be, and that is not by letting them do nothing if they choose to. As long as someone is there they need to do what is asked of them, like it or not. Make it as fun as you can but you cannot just change what you do to accommodate one kid. And you cannot just let anyone do or not do what he or she wants to do. He has a process and a curriculum that he need to stand by. Doing anything else would not be fair to anyone he teaches.

Of course that is my opinion.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Could we? whatever I said about raising children he considered irrelevant.

I haven't been to anyone's martial arts class yet where the children weren't respectful, cheerful and trying their best. I was at a seminar earlier this year where there were children from several clubs and all of them were good kids, they, like me had mixed ability classes. If you believe martial arts is good for children, that they learn a great many life skills from practising it why then are only the most able allowed to train, why are the less able, not the less committed, 'weeded' out?

My class as I said isn't made up of incredible martial artists, some are being the best they can be and you know what, watching a child with brain damage glow because she learnt to do a very creditable self defence technique is amazing.

I have been to many martial arts classes where the children werent respectful, cheerful and trying their best and its usually because the instructor lets them be like this. My instructor has no problems with a student who trains hard but is sub standard physically as this is not their fault, but if they want to muck around, put no effort in and participate half heartedly they wont last long as he will hound them and hound them until they leave. It is not fair on the students who come along to train hard to have lazy kids running around not giving their best. You come to martial arts to train hard and listen to instructions and if a kid doesnt want to do this they can find another hobby.

 

[Tez3]

Ralph thats my point, why have children in a class that don't want to be there? the children I have and the children I see in others classes are respect and want to learn because they want to be there not because there parents have made them come to classes.

Gents, I think too many people think martial arts is a cure or treatment for parents who cannot or will not cope with their childrens problems. Martial arts instructors aren't therapists, they aren't specialists in child psychology so why are they taking on children who have special needs?

the OP starts by labelling the child as having weak spirit, another label when it's perhaps as simple as the child doesn't want to be there, he may enjoy some parts but as a whole doesn't want to be there just because members of his family enjoy it doesn't mean to say he does. You are get stuck in this thing about how forcing them to do martial arts is good for the child, what bollocks. It's good for them if they want to do it not if they don't. It might be as simple too as the child needs a rest from martial arts and would benefit for picking it up later.


Don't bother getting sanctimonious with me and on your high horses, I say what I mean and if you don't like it don't read it. I am passionate about child welfare and labelling children as disabled because they have a small part of their brain not working or because their father lost a leg in Afghan and they have behavioural probelms coming to terms with that is cruel as is labelling a child as weak spirited because he doesn't come up to parent's or instructors expectations makes me very sad.
Helping children isn't making them do something they don't want to do, it's understanding the child, I gave some advice, it doesn't have to be taken but the remedy given by ATC was to force the child onto a military type regime to force it to take part. To bully the child into coming up to scratch basically and you think I'm twisted, wow. How many children's classes have you actually instructed btw? How many martial arts clubs/schools do you run?
I'm sure Bob even now is wading through your complaints about me - again :lol:

Say what you want, gents but I'm not going to add to a child's unhappiness just because the parents can't cope or have 'issues'. there's specialists for that.