Having a ponder, things occuring to me...

[pdg]

So as per title, I've been pondering.

I like to read and research, and the history and development of TKD is one subject I enjoy...

Maybe this has been discussed in the past here, but I haven't seen it

Anyway, in unrelated discussions I've mentioned how a fair bit of aikido stuff looks familiar to my TKD training, but has a different explanation as to application.

On that note, here's something that occurred to me...

TKD was created with huge influence from TSD (which was the art taught in the Korean military before TKD was named and further developed), and among the list of arts that fed into TSD are Daito Ryu and Aikido.

Kind of a "well, duh" moment going on

 

[skribs]

So as per title, I've been pondering.

I like to read and research, and the history and development of TKD is one subject I enjoy...

Maybe this has been discussed in the past here, but I haven't seen it

Anyway, in unrelated discussions I've mentioned how a fair bit of aikido stuff looks familiar to my TKD training, but has a different explanation as to application.

On that note, here's something that occurred to me...

TKD was created with huge influence from TSD (which was the art taught in the Korean military before TKD was named and further developed), and among the list of arts that fed into TSD are Daito Ryu and Aikido.

Kind of a "well, duh" moment going on

So uh...what are we supposed to talk about here?

 

[pdg]

So uh...what are we supposed to talk about here?

Anything remotely related - it's a ponder.

Challenge my reasoning, agree with it, expand on it, try to tell me tkd came directly from Taekkyeon with no outside influence

Whatever really.

 

[WaterGal]

TKD came from karate mostly. From what I've read, the greater emphasis on kicking was sort of borrowed from people's memories of Taekkyon, but that Taekkyon itself died out even *before* the Japanese occupation, because there was so much gambling at the fights that it became associated with criminals (I'm not clear on whether it was actually banned, or just got a bad reputation that caused people to stop training in it, or what).

 

[Earl Weiss]

Taekkyon connection was nominal at best. Some of the pioneers referenced some exposure to taekkyon but few if any relate any in depth lengthy training. I won't address the roots from a Kukki perspective. From a Chang Hon perspective General Choi sets out the Shorin and Shorei roots in his 1965 book even including several of those patterns.

 

[Dirty Dog]

TKD was created with huge influence from TSD (which was the art taught in the Korean military before TKD was named and further developed),

Actually, TKD was a renaming of TSD and the various Kwan originally continued the same curriculum they taught prior to the beginning of the unification movement. It took a fair bit of time to develop and implement a unified (sort of...) curriculum.

and among the list of arts that fed into TSD are Daito Ryu and Aikido.

What is your source for this? To the best of my knowledge the roots of TSD are primarily Shotokan, with some northern Chinese, and some Judo. I have never heard that any of the founders had any significant training in Daito Ryu . And since Aikido was founded at the same time as the various original Kwan in Korea (within a year or two), it seems really unlikely that any of the founders had significant training in what was a brand new art.

 

[pdg]

What is your source for this? To the best of my knowledge the roots of TSD are primarily Shotokan, with some northern Chinese, and some Judo.

My source is hearsay and Wikipedia

I've found citing those two is a fantastic way to get a conversation going

 

[pdg]

Actually, TKD was a renaming of TSD and the various Kwan originally continued the same curriculum they taught prior to the beginning of the unification movement. It took a fair bit of time to develop and implement a unified (sort of...) curriculum.

That was essentially what I thought, except that TSD continued along it's own path outside of the sections that accepted the (final) renaming.

I added final in brackets because there were quite a few names bandied around temporarily, either consecutively or concurrently with TKD.

 

[pdg]

Taekkyon connection was nominal at best. Some of the pioneers referenced some exposure to taekkyon but few if any relate any in depth lengthy training. I won't address the roots from a Kukki perspective. From a Chang Hon perspective General Choi sets out the Shorin and Shorei roots in his 1965 book even including several of those patterns.

The 1965 book is something I'd like to study - maybe I'll find a copy someday.

I have the 1985 encyclopaedia and the 1959 manual (pdf) and the differences are sometimes huge - I'd like to see more of the progression.

Have you heard that Gen. Choi used the term kukki in the '50s? I've not seen many references to it or the circumstances surrounding it being effectively dropped for over a decade...

I don't know nearly enough about the modern kukkiwon interpretation of history to even start commenting on it. It's been on the reading list for a while though.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That was essentially what I thought, except that TSD continued along it's own path outside of the sections that accepted the (final) renaming.

Like so much, it was political. GM HWANG, Kee, was upset that he wasn't chosen as head of the unification, so he left. About 2/3 of his Moo Duk Kwan stayed. GM HWANG and the 1/3 kept their original TSD curriculum, until he changed the name to Soo Bahk Do after being exposed to the information in the Muye Dobo Tongji. So basically, anyone still teaching TSD split from the MDK at some point after the re-split but before the name change.
The name change, too, was largely political. It was an attempt to tie his teachings to those of pre-occupation Korea (which TKD also attempted) based on studying the above combat manual. I have a copy. It's a military manual, and (just like military training today) it's maybe 1% unarmed, and doesn't seem to contain anything that could substantially change an art.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Actually, TKD was a renaming of TSD and the various Kwan originally continued the same curriculum they taught prior to the beginning of the unification movement. It took a fair bit of time to develop and implement a unified (sort of...) curriculum.

That is one perspective. Simply a renaming. Another is that along with a name a curriculum was being immediately developed and implemented. Within a few short years this was well on it's way. Many rejected or resisted either or both until it benefited them to accept either or both. The fact that many chose to adopt a name without changing their system because it benefited them to do only means that they claimed it was a new name for what they did.

If it were simply a new name for something old, my question is "Why?" What could possibly justify such a huge PITA?

 

[Dirty Dog]

If it were simply a new name for something old, my question is "Why?" What could possibly justify such a huge PITA?

That's easy. There was a huge push in Korea, at the time, to do anything and everything possible to distance themselves from the Japanese. The same reason there were a lot of people claiming that TKD was directly evolved from ancient Korean arts.

Certainly, TKD evolved and changed significantly from it's Japanese roots. But initially, it was a renaming.

 

[pdg]

If it were simply a new name for something old, my question is "Why?" What could possibly justify such a huge PITA?

The only thing I can think supports a simple renaming is trying to curry favour with the government of the time - at a time when the efforts were already in motion to have it 'approved' as a national symbol.

Even so, accounts and interviews suggest it was indeed far more than renaming, and that the new name was just a part of the development process (most of the rest being the new curriculum and set of patterns, which took a good few years before and after the introduction of the name).

It's difficult to sort out what is really what though, even though it was quite recent there's not many left who were actually there, and those who were (and are/have been vocal) don't always agree with each other...

 

[now disabled]

So as per title, I've been pondering.

I like to read and research, and the history and development of TKD is one subject I enjoy...

Maybe this has been discussed in the past here, but I haven't seen it

Anyway, in unrelated discussions I've mentioned how a fair bit of aikido stuff looks familiar to my TKD training, but has a different explanation as to application.

On that note, here's something that occurred to me...

TKD was created with huge influence from TSD (which was the art taught in the Korean military before TKD was named and further developed), and among the list of arts that fed into TSD are Daito Ryu and Aikido.

Kind of a "well, duh" moment going on

Hmmmmm I don't see any of the Daito-ryu in TKD and I don't think the is any Aiki as such taught as part of TKD ................I really know nothing of TSD at all so I can't really say, If you mean any of the circular movements etc oe the drawning of "power/force" from within or the ground etc then that is not exclusive to one Art there are many that do that.

The Korean Art that has roots in Daito-ru ( definitely one part of Daito -ryu maybe two not entirely to sure if any of the third form of Daito-ryu is part of it or not that a Hapkido guy would have to answer) is Hapkido (ok not gonna get into the did he didn't he arguments)

Does TSD have throws etc ?

 

[now disabled]

Just a question for you TKD guys but wasn't Gen Choi born in North Korea, I know he died there so does that have anything to do with there controversy within Tkd circles and names etc?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Just a question for you TKD guys but wasn't Gen Choi born in North Korea, I know he died there so does that have anything to do with there controversy within Tkd circles and names etc?

There was no North or South Korea at that time. There was only Korea. And it was under Japanese occupation.

 

[pdg]

Hmmmmm I don't see any of the Daito-ryu in TKD and I don't think the is any Aiki as such taught as part of TKD ................I really know nothing of TSD at all so I can't really say, If you mean any of the circular movements etc oe the drawning of "power/force" from within or the ground etc then that is not exclusive to one Art there are many that do that.

The Korean Art that has roots in Daito-ru ( definitely one part of Daito -ryu maybe two not entirely to sure if any of the third form of Daito-ryu is part of it or not that a Hapkido guy would have to answer) is Hapkido (ok not gonna get into the did he didn't he arguments)

Does TSD have throws etc ?

I don't know that much about TSD, especially what it was before the mid 1950s - as with everything stories change and I think it'd take more work than I'm prepared to do to filter the info... But, more than a few descriptions include throws and grappling.

As for TKD, I have the belief that the content is there to support inclusion of more 'aiki' techniques, but the context for them is almost universally lacking. It's certainly not taught as the norm.

I also realise that with this I'm definitely straying from the core of what is currently deemed traditional...

What I'm getting at is based partially on old videos. If you watch some daito-ryu stuff and stop it part way through a movement, it almost exactly matches the 'completed' TKD positions.

In a way, I'm not surprised that you have difficulty seeing the correlations (in the nicest way ) - it's easier to soften the hard than to harden the soft. I have a glass of water, I can easily make a puddle - you have a puddle, try picking up the water and putting it in a glass without it getting all muddy

 

[Earl Weiss]

Just a question for you TKD guys but wasn't Gen Choi born in North Korea, I know he died there so does that have anything to do with there controversy within Tkd circles and names etc?

As DD said - No north r south at that time. The area he was born in later became part of NK.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If it were simply a new name for something old, my question is "Why?" What could possibly justify such a huge PITA?

Or perhaps it was more like this. President of SK sees a MA demo, is impressed and says we need to teach this stuff to the troops and empowers a General to do just that having him form a new infantry division into which he recruits he top MA talent he can. But wait, there is a problem. There is a huge variety of stuff the talent is doing so how can it be taught and learned on a wide scale. Can history provide a solution? There were these guys named Kano, Funakoshi.... etc. They created a single system from various roots and were then able to spread that system.
So, you name and create the system, have the talent learn it, dispatch them on Military transports for demos throughout the world, recruit other talent outside the Military for the same thing, and develop all these people to spread the system as instructors. Now you have followed in the footsteps of creators of other modern systems.

I know, crazy idea. Just figured I'd throw it out there.

 

[now disabled]

I don't know that much about TSD, especially what it was before the mid 1950s - as with everything stories change and I think it'd take more work than I'm prepared to do to filter the info... But, more than a few descriptions include throws and grappling.

As for TKD, I have the belief that the content is there to support inclusion of more 'aiki' techniques, but the context for them is almost universally lacking. It's certainly not taught as the norm.

I also realise that with this I'm definitely straying from the core of what is currently deemed traditional...

What I'm getting at is based partially on old videos. If you watch some daito-ryu stuff and stop it part way through a movement, it almost exactly matches the 'completed' TKD positions.

In a way, I'm not surprised that you have difficulty seeing the correlations (in the nicest way ) - it's easier to soften the hard than to harden the soft. I have a glass of water, I can easily make a puddle - you have a puddle, try picking up the water and putting it in a glass without it getting all muddy

Ok

Aiki techs as you put it really can be "taught" as part of any art if desired.

Aiki can be and is approached differently and with slightly varying approaches in the arts that use it as part of their curriculum some may and do approach it as neutralizing and opponents attack/strength/force by applying techniques that do same, so that for example a much smaller/weaker person be it man/woman or child can overcome.
Then there is the what could be described as the "higher" end of Aiki which is the blending of your Ki as defender with the Ki of your opponent and other things to overcome the attack (and I'm not talking the no touch thing btw), that is and does take long time to achieve and/or be able to execute consistently.
Then there is the Kiai to mix in lol
Yes they can be rolled into one or mixed and matched as such, just be aware that they can also be depending on approach be separate or the approach taken by the different arts or even the different schools within the same art or even the teachers teaching lol
Aiki can be very "basic" or very very complicated depending on how you want to pursue it and it's attainment, and how it is explained and taught, The neutralizing aspect yes that can be taught and to a certain degree that can and is (again depending on the school and teacher) looked on as "blending" which it is and it isn't lol.

The completed parts your refer to as being the same from Daito-ryu and TKD being the same well yes I do get that however do bare in mind that Daito-ryu the completion is a strike to a pressure point or it mostly is, as in truth are all the atemi.
Do also bare in mind that in Daito-ryu there are three different methods (depending on what and how it is taught and who teaching) there is Daito-ryu jujtsu, Daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu and Daito-ryu aiki no jutsu (just to confuse you more lol) (oh and just for good measure there is also Daito-ryu aiki-budo and then there are also the different lineages which teach things slightly differently lol) The first two yup you will see the atemi at the end the aiki-no jutsu you more than likely will not lol.

And to confuse ya even more you might see all three methods rolled into one lol , depending on the skill of the practitioner.

So is there Daito-ryu in TKD ...nope lol but there may look like there is for sure and as for Aikido no definitely not lol as that is a adapted form of Daito-ryu (with one or two bits from other places) and then it depends which school as to how much of the second two aiki methods are present and lol and Aikido is more flowing than Diato -ryu (but again depends on the school lol)