Have you kicked someone in a fight.

[Bill Mattocks]

Any kick above the knee level can be caught. IMO, the safe kick that's hard to catch are:

- front kick at knee.
- side kick at knee.
- side kick behind (or on the side) the knee.
- reverse side kick at knee.
- roundhouse kick below the knee.
- foot sweep at the ankle.

The only concern is all those kicks can be escaped by just bending the leg at the knee joint.

Fumikomi. No knee bend will escape it.

 

[pdg]

Not if I catch it.

To verify that either way we'd have to try it

 

[Bill Mattocks]

To verify that either way we'd have to try it

Let me know when you're in SE Michigan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I soccer kicked a guy who tried to pull a gun on me. I saw him reaching for it, and rushed in with a right hook to the jaw. After he fell I gave him 3 or 4 soccer kicks to the ribs and ran. Only time I’ve kicked outside the dojo and competition.

I’ve never been an effective kicker. I don’t fight at a range conducive to it, I use more of a boxer’s stance where my center of gravity doesn’t favor it, and I’m not a flexible guy.

If I actually ever get into a fight again and kick, it’ll be all of 3 different kicks - knee (most likely), roundhouse to the knee or thigh, or inside-out crescent kick. Possibly a front kick too, used as a Muay Thai “teep” or to meet someone charging forward with a kick in the stomach.

I use other stuff in sparring, but when I’m being outclassed and/or it gets intense, I’m a front kick and inside-out crescent kick to the head guy. I use that crescent kick from pretty close range, and it’s pretty strong. Only downfal is it’s hard for me to transition to anything else after I use it. I keep working on that though.

Edit: I kicked a kid during a fight in around 6th grade. Basically a front kick to the stomach, but I didn’t know anything about MA beyond “Kung Fu Theater” and the like. Oh yeah, I kneed a kid in the ribs a few times while we were both down - he was hands and knees, I was in a wrestling side position controlling him. Around 9th grade. No MA experience then, except several years of wrestling.

I can relate. Under pressure, my front kick is probably the only one I really trust. For striking, I'm much better equipped to use my hands.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Fumikomi. No knee bend will escape it.

What is fumikomi?

 

[drop bear]

Any kick above the knee level can be caught. IMO, the safe kick that's hard to catch are:

- front kick at knee.
- side kick at knee.
- side kick behind (or on the side) the knee.
- reverse side kick at knee.
- roundhouse kick below the knee.
- foot sweep at the ankle.

The only concern is all those kicks can be escaped by just bending the leg at the knee joint.

Head kicks are hard to catch.

 

[drop bear]

What is fumikomi?

Just googled it. A low side kick.

Because if it isn't on youtube. You are probably making it up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Head kicks are hard to catch.

I haven't had enough thrown at me to be a very good source, but that's my experience. Easier to catch what I can trap under the arm or in the crook of the elbow.

 

[dvcochran]

Thank you, that is what I am trying to say.
When I spar I have time to find his weakness. Plan an attack , if it fails he is not going to seriously hurt me.
The fights I have been in their was no time to make a plan. Slip punch and hit as fast as you can.

I read down all the current post before I replied. All the post were good. But my main question is what do you consider a fight? Is it an all inclusive term where an unexpected attack is included? Or is it the stereotypical bar or after school scuffle? Or are you in an environment where real harm can be done to you or someone you care for? It may not be PC in this day and age but any Martial Art program worth its salt should help prepare a person for ALL situations.
The first scenario has absolutely no boundaries and by every intent I encourage you to approach it as a fight for life. So nothing is off the table. For the latter scenarios, you should be practicing techniques and scenarios in class that encompass as many "what-ifs" as reasonably possible. This includes short and long range, as well as low and high kicks.
Like many have said range can play a factor. Along with a large dose of common sense and, sometimes a ego check. The Do part of most MA is a priceless component and can save your life or at least your teeth, or knee, or ribs, etc...
All this said, I grew up in a family where fighting was a rite of passage. My dad and my uncles fought, my brother and I fought, hell even my mom and aunt's fought at least once a year. Kind of a southern thing. So it was "natural" as I was "becoming a man" that I thought it was ok to fight. I was never really scared of being in a fight, however, I did not know at the time actually how insulated I had been. Yes you may get a bruise or black eye but I had never really been hurt from a fight. Then I got old enough to travel with my friends to larger cities like Nashville and discovered more about fighting pretty quick. I had been in a few bar room ego shuffles before getting absolutely boot stomped outside a club. The guy just didn't quit. Stitches and broken ribs so I remember it well. I can look back with clarity and see that I gave the guy every opportunity.
So if you think getting in fights is going to be a regular thing I strongly suggest you check yourself, your friends, your habits, your workout, and your environment. Take the Cub Scout motto seriously; be prepared, but the Do in most MA has a defensive mindset so don't go looking for the fight. IMHO
As others have said, if you are only practicing kicks (or any other technique for that matter) as only a sparring tool then you are not in a Martial Arts class. That comes from a guy who loves Olympic style sparring and am very confident with my kicks. But never will I be deluded enough to think I will only need my leg, or hands or throws, elbows, knees, fingers, weight, leverage, position, range, awareness, experience, wisdom, so on and so on.
Can you expand on a more specific example for your original post? Great post by the way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You must have much better kicks than me. Man, if one of my kicks gets caught...

I'm with you on that one. The only kick I'm willing to let anyone catch is a low kick. Bending over to catch a low kick caused improper lifting which gets me an opportunity to strain their back. Other than that I don't want anyone catching my kicks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I read down all the current post before I replied. All the post were good. But my main question is what do you consider a fight? Is it an all inclusive term where an unexpected attack is included? Or is it the stereotypical bar or after school scuffle? Or are you in an environment where real harm can be done to you or someone you care for? It may not be PC in this day and age but any Martial Art program worth its salt should help prepare a person for ALL situations.
The first scenario has absolutely no boundaries and by every intent I encourage you to approach it as a fight for life. So nothing is off the table. For the latter scenarios, you should be practicing techniques and scenarios in class that encompass as many "what-ifs" as reasonably possible. This includes short and long range, as well as low and high kicks.
Like many have said range can play a factor. Along with a large dose of common sense and, sometimes a ego check. The Do part of most MA is a priceless component and can save your life or at least your teeth, or knee, or ribs, etc...
All this said, I grew up in a family where fighting was a rite of passage. My dad and my uncles fought, my brother and I fought, hell even my mom and aunt's fought at least once a year. Kind of a southern thing. So it was "natural" as I was "becoming a man" that I thought it was ok to fight. I was never really scared of being in a fight, however, I did not know at the time actually how insulated I had been. Yes you may get a bruise of black eye but I had never really been hurt from a fight. Then I got old enough to travel with my friends to larger cities like Nashville and discovered more about fighting pretty quick. I had been in a few bar room ego shuffles before getting absolutely boot stomped outside a club. The guy just didn't quit. Stitches and broken ribs so I remember it well. I can look back with clarity and see that I gave the guy every opportunity.
So if you think getting in fights is going to be a regular thing I strongly suggest you check yourself, your friends, your habits, your workout, and your environment. Take the Cub Scout motto seriously; be prepared, but the Do in most MA has a defensive mindset so don't go looking for the fight. IMHO
As others have said, if you are only practicing kicks (or any other technique for that matter) as only a sparring tool then you are not in a Martial Arts class. That comes from a guy who loves Olympic style sparring and am very confident with my kicks. But never will I be deluded enough to think I will only need my leg, or hands or throws, elbows, knees, fingers, weight, leverage, position, range, awareness, experience, wisdom, so on and so on.
Can you expand on a more specific example for your original post? Great post by the way.

While I personally agree with the approach you mention, not everyone trains martial arts for the purpose of self-defense usage. I'm not wild about the "that's not real martial arts" attitude. I'm not sure who gets to decide what is "real martial arts", but it ain't me.

 

[dvcochran]

Agreed. I know people who can effectively kick in closer quarters than I can. And you probably have significantly more power in your kicks than I do. I'd expect you and that other guy to use those kicks more often and to more advantage in a fight.[/QUOTE

Can we get back to the question.
Not in a tournament, not in theory, but in a real fight have you kicked someone?

Yes I have. If I had to pick "go to" kicks they would be the often mentioned low/middle front kick, knee/thigh/jaw roundhouse, knee/rib side kick, and outside crescent to the temple. I am pretty confident with my close spinning side kick but it would never by a first choice unless position and angle presented it that way.
I have been in only 2-3 fights against more than one person and I used a kick as my second attack each time I think. But, as I said in another post, you have to practice your kicks (all techniques) to the point of muscle memory and have a mind to use them or they just are not going to work.

 

[dvcochran]

While I personally agree with the approach you mention, not everyone trains martial arts for the purpose of self-defense usage. I'm not wild about the "that's not real martial arts" attitude. I'm not sure who gets to decide what is "real martial arts", but it ain't me.

Agree, but can't you picture the noob who genuinely thinks they are learning to defend themselves when in fact they are not?

 

[Bruce7]

I was small for my age and my father was in the oil field so we moved every year. I was a bully magnet. I learn to hit the bully first and keep hitting. I figured out he would only beat me up once, since I could hurt him a little bit, it was not worth bulling me. Black eye stuff nothing serious.

My experience in Navy bars if two guys got into a fight. A bunch of guys would stop it if it starts getting too serious.
Fights were normally over a girl or they were drinking to much.
FYI never hit a Navy Corpsman, every Marine in the bar will put you in the hospital.
A Navy Corpsman is attached to a Marine Combat Platoon, he is the one who saves a marines live if he is hit.

This is what I call a fight.
After I join the Navy I went to a lot of non-navy bars, some of which it was not a good idea to go into.
I learn the hard way fights were serious now and their was not much warning.

My first serious fight, I was sucker punched, I fell over a chair and I was on the ground and he was kicking the sh*t out of me before I could get up. Lucky for me I had brought friends or I would have been hurt a lot worse.
From then on, if someone is talking and getting in close, I hit him in the face and don't stop till he is on the ground.
All the real fights I have been in were close range and with little or no warning.
Not letting someone sucker punch me, MA schools training, and the millions of snap punches, reverse punches, and back fist made my hands very fast, so I did not get seriously hurt again.

 

[pdg]

Let me know when you're in SE Michigan.

I'm unlikely to go there - some guy has threatened to grab my leg...


If I ever do end up in the states, there's a fair list of people I'd like to get playtime with.

 

[dvcochran]

I was small for my age and my father was in the oil field so we moved every year. I was a bully magnet. I learn to hit the bully first and keep hitting. I figured out he would only beat me up once, since I could hurt him a little bit, it was not worth bulling me. Black eye stuff nothing serious.

My experience in Navy bars if two guys got into a fight. A bunch of guys would stop it if it starts getting too serious.
Fights were normally over a girl or they were drinking to much.
FYI never hit a Navy Corpsman, every Marine in the bar will put you in the hospital.
A Navy Corpsman is attached to a Marine Combat Platoon, he is the one who saves a marines live if he is hit.

This is what I call a fight.
After I join the Navy I went to a lot of non-navy bars, some of which it was not a good idea to go into.
I learn the hard way fights were serious now and their was not much warning.

My first serious fight, I was sucker punched, I fell over a chair and I was on the ground and he was kicking the sh*t out of me before I could get up. Lucky for me I had brought friends or I would have been hurt a lot worse.
From then on, if someone is talking and getting in close, I hit him in the face and don't stop till he is on the ground.
All the real fights I have been in were close range and with little or no warning.
Not letting someone sucker punch me, MA schools training, and the millions of snap punches, reverse punches, and back fist made my hands very fast, so I did not get seriously hurt again.

There is a "if it isn't broken don't fix it" quality to what you say. Through experience you have developed a fighting style that largely works. If your current MA system is a kicking style that is understandably a different and possibly even unnatural way of defense for you. This is where you will learn to meld your existing experience with your new learnings. Take the time and initiative to work ALL you are learning until you either find the practical application or that it is a low percentage move for you. In TMA there is a truth to this. Some segments in forms are intended more for teaching or practicing speed, balance, timing, etc.... and are not practical for every situation or person. For example, if you are not confident with spinning kicks. Part of why there are so many forms. Each person must find the things that work best for them and keep them in their primary bag of tricks. Anything else of quality you learn to muscle memory are added to your arsenal.
It is good that you are asking questions. It sounds like you have had enough real-world experience to really understand what you are asking. So I would say evaluate both your personal workout and what you are being taught. I suspect the lessons are there and you just have to flesh them out. The one exception I can think of is if you happen to be in a purely WT/Olympic style sparring class that teaches no self defense at all. That could be a big problem.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I was small for my age and my father was in the oil field so we moved every year. I was a bully magnet. I learn to hit the bully first and keep hitting. I figured out he would only beat me up once, since I could hurt him a little bit, it was not worth bulling me. Black eye stuff nothing serious.

My experience in Navy bars if two guys got into a fight. A bunch of guys would stop it if it starts getting too serious.
Fights were normally over a girl or they were drinking to much.
FYI never hit a Navy Corpsman, every Marine in the bar will put you in the hospital.
A Navy Corpsman is attached to a Marine Combat Platoon, he is the one who saves a marines live if he is hit.

This is what I call a fight.
After I join the Navy I went to a lot of non-navy bars, some of which it was not a good idea to go into.
I learn the hard way fights were serious now and their was not much warning.

My first serious fight, I was sucker punched, I fell over a chair and I was on the ground and he was kicking the sh*t out of me before I could get up. Lucky for me I had brought friends or I would have been hurt a lot worse.
From then on, if someone is talking and getting in close, I hit him in the face and don't stop till he is on the ground.
All the real fights I have been in were close range and with little or no warning.
Not letting someone sucker punch me, MA schools training, and the millions of snap punches, reverse punches, and back fist made my hands very fast, so I did not get seriously hurt again.

Yeah, hitting a Corpsman in a bar full of Marines can be a life-changing experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm with you on that one. The only kick I'm willing to let anyone catch is a low kick. Bending over to catch a low kick caused improper lifting which gets me an opportunity to strain their back. Other than that I don't want anyone catching my kicks.

Yeah, I could work with that. They'd probably be in good position to get to a guillotine or something equally bad for them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agree, but can't you picture the noob who genuinely thinks they are learning to defend themselves when in fact they are not?

Claiming to do what you're not is a problem for me, sure. But there are schools that don't make those claims, and teach excellent light-point sparring for competition, great movement, etc., without getting to much SD.

There are even schools that teach very good fighting, but don't get into dealing with an unexpected charge from an odd angle, etc. Their students are learning skills that can help in self-defense situations (I'd expect most MMA gyms fall in this category). I'm certainly not going to say that's not really MA.

 

[jobo]

I could break bricks with my side kick,

no you can't!