Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm curious as to what you hope to accomplish with a comment like this? You have not trained with the vast majority of members, just in this one section of the board. Therefore you don't know the capabilities or experiences of these members. Therefore your comment, while perhaps enthusiastic isn't warranted or even remotely factual.

I have to agree. It was a very odd comment which can have no factual base. He should also consider many on this board dont train to fight like that, and the fact that nobody has doubted the fighters abilities, most negativity has been aimed at the ruleset, not the competitiors.

 

[Steve]

The thing about reputation is that it's external to the style. I mean, it really depends upon what you think the reputation of TKD was before Olympic TKD, and also what you think the reputation is now.

From the outside looking in, it seems that many don't see a problem at all with TKD's current reputation. Nothing wrong with that, at all. But if the reputation of the art hasn't been ruined, then it can't have been ruined by Olympic TKD.

I personally don't enjoy Olympic style TKD. Not my cup of tea. But it hasn't influenced my opinion of the art at all.

 

[Gorilla]

I'm curious as to what you hope to accomplish with a comment like this? You have not trained with the vast majority of members, just in this one section of the board. Therefore you don't know the capabilities or experiences of these members. Therefore your comment, while perhaps enthusiastic isn't warranted or even remotely factual.

Allot of posts on this BBS are not factual...

I understand ATC's frustration...he is referring to one round in a WTF style match...his comment is very accurate!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Allot of posts on this BBS are not factual...

I understand ATC's frustration...he is referring to one round in a WTF style match...his comment is very accurate!

considering a large number of posters on this board dont spar or train in wtf sparring, he may well be accurate. But to come onto a board where he has not seen 99% of posters train, it is quite ludicrous to jump on and make the comment that most posters here would not last a round with a fifteen year old. That would be like me saying no posters on martial talk can do palgwe six as good as me. Its just such a silly thing to say that cant be backed up by facts. Its also out of context with the debate because no negativity is being aimed at the competitors, its the ruleset being questioned. "Even the fifteen year olds would put most on here to shame" is just such a silly thing to post on a martial arts forum.

 

[Jaeimseu]

considering a large number of posters on this board dont spar or train in wtf sparring, he may well be accurate. But to come onto a board where he has not seen 99% of posters train, it is quite ludicrous to jump on and make the comment that most posters here would not last a round with a fifteen year old. That would be like me saying no posters on martial talk can do palgwe six as good as me. Its just such a silly thing to say that cant be backed up by facts. Its also out of context with the debate because no negativity is being aimed at the competitors, its the ruleset being questioned. "Even the fifteen year olds would put most on here to shame" is just such a silly thing to post on a martial arts forum.

In the OP it was mentioned that the competitors had no technique and weak kicks. That doesn't have anything to do with the rules, plus it's an opinion given largely out of ignorance, which is probably what annoys people who know better.

Far too often people post here with a holier than thou "I'm a real black belt/martial artist" attitude and the "debate" boils down to "if you don't agree with me you're delusional."

This silly debate continues to resurface every so often and has done so for years. It would be nice if people would get over it and focus some positive energy into their own training instead of slagging what someone else is doing.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

In the OP it was mentioned that the competitors had no technique and weak kicks. That doesn't have anything to do with the rules, plus it's an opinion given largely out of ignorance, which is probably what annoys people who know better.

Far too often people post here with a holier than thou "I'm a real black belt/martial artist" attitude and the "debate" boils down to "if you don't agree with me you're delusional."

This silly debate continues to resurface every so often and has done so for years. It would be nice if people would get over it and focus some positive energy into their own training instead of slagging what someone else is doing.

Maybe I have missed something but I very rarely see anyone post here with a "holier than thou" attitude. In fact, its the good attitude of posters on martial talk that keeps me coming here. In this thread, for instance, I haven't noticed anyone with a "my black belt is better than yours" attitude. Except maybe ATC's post, which is quite ironic.

 

[Drasken]

Maybe I have missed something but I very rarely see anyone post here with a "holier than thou" attitude. In fact, its the good attitude of posters on martial talk that keeps me coming here.

That's what I was thinking. Most forums are arguments consisting of "MMA pwns traditional 'fake' martial arts" and then traditional martial artists retorting with the same kind of bullcrap. This forum has people that are generally respectful AND knowledgeable.
Kinda odd anyone is claiming otherwise.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

That's what I was thinking. Most forums are arguments consisting of "MMA pwns traditional 'fake' martial arts" and then traditional martial artists retorting with the same kind of bullcrap. This forum has people that are generally respectful AND knowledgeable.
Kinda odd anyone is claiming otherwise.

Exactly. Of the forums I frequent, the posters are the most respectful here by far. Actually going back through this thread I notice even those oposed to olympic sparring still make a point of commenting on the skill of the athletes involved.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I agree that most posters here are more respectful than on other sites, and I wasn't suggesting that this thread was particularly bad, but many threads have come and gone over the years where subtle and not so subtle negativity has been directed at Olympic/Kukkiwon Taekwondo, usually by people who don't know much about it but think they do. I agree, with one exception, this thread has been fairly tame.

 

[Gnarlie]

I just saw the olympic gold medal match in London. An Italian beat a guy from Gabon. The thing that bothered me the most, is that they were so obsessed with scoring and not being scored on, there was hardly any Taekwondo. They just stood side to side, hovering on one leg, constantly looking for an opening to score. It was pitiful.

The rules drive the behaviour. Athletes in London 2012 were dealing with new scoring rules and relatively young electronic scoring technology. Nobody really knew what effect this combination would have on how the athletes played, but the intention was to encourage more action and increase participant safety - the ring was made smaller, head contact scored higher, more difficult spinning techniques scored higher, all of which intended to make the game more spectacular.

It is unfortunate that in contrast to the rule changes, the scoring technology is such that a good stopping side kick or cut kick with the front leg to the body can score, keeping the risk of being scored against to a minimum - in particular the length of the front leg side kick pretty much eliminates the possibility of a (more points) head kick counter, without the opponent having to sidestep first. Once the athletes and coaches discovered this, then it was only a matter of time before this easier, conservative front leg point poaching strategy was adopted by everyone.

That said, I don't think London damaged the reputation of Taekwondo. The game was sufficiently different to the last Olympics, and the commentators talked many times about how and why the scoring rules and technology had been introduced - with the intention of making the game more fair, more entertaining and safer.

I fully expect further rule and technology changes post-London, using the lessons learned to alter the rules and technology to discourage conservative front leg play. We'll see a different game again in Rio.

I ran in a few people on the internet that said that Taekwondo's reputation has been damaged by the sporty side of Taekwondo, which is focused on scoring instead of fighting.

You can't believe everything you read on the internet. Olympic style TKD is a game, so of course it's focused on scoring instead of fighting. Football is focused on scoring rather than fighting. That doesn't make it a bad game.

There's much more to KKW TKD than this game, and for the most part those involved in Korean Martial Arts recognise that this is true.

Which reputation do you mean anyway? With other martial artists? Within Taekwondo? With the general public?

In my experience the general public don't know enough about martial arts to make any kind of judgment on the validity of what they see broadcast. Olympic footage sometimes prompts people to ask me questions about why, or how, or what, but it's usually only those within the martial arts who express negative opinions, and even then it's one of two groups in my experience:

1) People not involved in TKD or KMA - who have seen the Olympic game, think that's all there is to TKD, and neglect to inform themselves further before expressing their opinion as fact. "You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts" - Ricky Gervais

2) People who are or were involved in TKD (usually at low level) who can't and don't recognise that the basic skills being demonstrated by players of the game hint at a much deeper and richer martial knowledge and ability. If a person can't watch Olympic Taekwondo and recognise that one of those kicks can and will take the breath out of you, bruise you, and leave you struggling to respond, then they can't have done much contact work.

One of them said: It's a disgrace to the martial art and only soils it. These athletes have little to no technique and throw a flurry of weak kicks which though great in speed lack control and power.

I defy that person to stand opposite a competent player and try to trade kicks. About 8 weeks training will get one to the point where one can compete for the first time in a low level comp, which is where most people try once, give up and then form their opinion. You probably won't get kicked much or make much clean contact at that level. Another couple of years and it's a different story. From experience I know just how much power is in those very very fast kicks, and also that the athletes are fully capable of aiming anywhere and controlling just how much power they want in the techniques.

You think it's true?

No, and I think those who express that kind of opinion are under-informed and underexposed to the art of TKD. Get in the ring if you think it's easy, is all I would say to such a person.

 

[Markku P]

What reputation did Taekwondo have before that was ruined by Olympic Taekwondo? I think people ignorant of Taekwondo have probably damaged taekwondo's reputation on the Internet, since it's easy to find web content bashing Taekwondo, whether it's bashing kids with black belts, sport training, or mcdojangs. In my experience, the people bashing it usually have no idea what they are talking about or practice a different type of Taekwondo that they perceive as the "right" or "true" Taekwondo.

Whatever reputation Taekwondo has or doesn't have really doesn't bother me. Where I come from it has a reputation as a popular activity for kids primarily, and as a good form of exercise with some self defense benefits for adults. I don't think Olympic Taekwondo competition had much effect on that reputation.

I kind of agree with this. Most people don't know anything about Taekwondo and Olympics has help to get some publicity at least. That's better than nothing. Finally, what's wrong to be a sport? Boxing and Wrestling are sports and in my eyes they don't argue over effectiveness in self defense. ( and both sports are effective in self defense )

 

[Tez3]

I would like to point out, and I'm not attacking the OP here, that so far he's posted up that Aikido is rubbish and Praying Mantis style CMA was invented by someone who was a useless martial artist, as well as looking for the flashiest martial arts style. Along with this one about TKD perhaps we have a pattern here?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Allot of posts on this BBS are not factual...

I understand ATC's frustration...he is referring to one round in a WTF style match...his comment is very accurate!

How is it accurate? If one is frustrated then perhaps posting, out of frustration, isn't the best option. If you think the comment(s) were factual, by what means and measure did you/he arrive at this conclusion?

I agree that most posters here are more respectful than on other sites, and I wasn't suggesting that this thread was particularly bad, but many threads have come and gone over the years where subtle and not so subtle negativity has been directed at Olympic/Kukkiwon Taekwondo, usually by people who don't know much about it but think they do.

Perhaps, but do you know who here has experience with OKKW and who doens't? Having a negative or different opinion doens't necessarily mean you don't have experience with the topic. It could mean that your willing to look (and speak) on the good, bad and ugly of the topic.

Finally, what's wrong to be a sport? Boxing and Wrestling are sports and in my eyes they don't argue over effectiveness in self defense. ( and both sports are effective in self defense )

I would argue (respectfully) that neither are optimal or even desireable for self-defense (and I'd be happy to [again] go over the reasons why in a different thread). Like any sport art, training uses an artificial rule set within a controlled environment. Like OKKW TKD the athlete can be in teriffice shape, great reflexes and really good at what they do...but what they do and how they train doesn't translate well into a real altercation. Within the confines of a specific venue, these athletes can really be impressive. I'm taking nothing away from what they do and how they do it...as long as it stays within that venue. It is when some, that are perhaps too impressed with this venue, think it is effective for other venues that we have an issue.

I don't want to have this thread go off on a SD vs. sport tangent, but wanted to response to Mark's comment. Nothing wrong with it being a sport...that is what it is suppose to be. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I would like to point out, and I'm not attacking the OP here, that so far he's posted up that Aikido is rubbish and Praying Mantis style CMA was invented by someone who was a useless martial artist, as well as looking for the flashiest martial arts style. Along with this one about TKD perhaps we have a pattern here?

I would say yes, there is a trend.

 

[Cyriacus]

I would like to point out, and I'm not attacking the OP here, that so far he's posted up that Aikido is rubbish and Praying Mantis style CMA was invented by someone who was a useless martial artist, as well as looking for the flashiest martial arts style. Along with this one about TKD perhaps we have a pattern here?

Things would get mighty dull around here if it werent for some of these amazing threads though.

 

[Tez3]

Things would get mighty dull around here if it werent for some of these amazing threads though.

I must admit the Praying Mantis one has taken an amusing turn however the Aikido one starts off very negatively, style bashing in fact. This thread asked I think a legitimate question and has turned out mainly positive because of the attitude of the posters who don't style bash.

 

[Gorilla]

Almost all the posts on this thread have been ludicrous....

considering a large number of posters on this board dont spar or train in wtf sparring, he may well be accurate. But to come onto a board where he has not seen 99% of posters train, it is quite ludicrous to jump on and make the comment that most posters here would not last a round with a fifteen year old. That would be like me saying no posters on martial talk can do palgwe six as good as me. Its just such a silly thing to say that cant be backed up by facts. Its also out of context with the debate because no negativity is being aimed at the competitors, its the ruleset being questioned. "Even the fifteen year olds would put most on here to shame" is just such a silly thing to post on a martial arts forum.

 

[Tez3]

Not attacking posters much then.......

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Almost all the posts on this thread have been ludicrous....

Interesting. I'm curious, would this include your own or just the one's you don't agree with?

 

[Manny]

I think olimpic TKD helped to widespread the TKD, TKD is the martial art that has more practicioners world wide and this is because olimpics for sure, but this is where the good things end for me. Olimpic TKD has been bad to the Martial Art of TKD because as you have worte here is a tag game, yes is a fullcontact game usinf safety gear and with a rule set and the atlethes are supoer fast,super strong and with super reflexes but again it's just a game where the one that wins usually is because it overscores the other participant.

The martial art of TKD is more than kicking, it's more than olimpic or WTF sparring rules, it is much more but saddly the majority of dojangs only focus in olimpic sparring and leave the other part behind.

For example, I enjoy a lot the classes that older sambinims teach (men above 50 years old with a minimum of 30 years around TKD) their class are very rich in tradition, techs and all the stuff related to a martial art, in the other hand I dislike a lot the classes the young sambnims teach (2nd and 3rd degree black belts) that come from the post olimpic era, because all their efforts are over kicking... kickinhg high, flamboyant kicks and... kicking combos that are studid... yes thay can maybe score one or two points in the competition but in the streets are worthless.

If I opened my own dojang I would not have many students, because my way of see TKD, my way of teach TKD is so clasic that does not involve olimpic TKD and liked or not olimpic TKD sellls and sells very well.

Manny